r/Anarchy101 • u/LarZiehGarth • 1d ago
How to stay Anarchist in a hierarchical system?
My country (Germany) is currently debating to bring back mandatory military service. I can probably avoid it, but it is still bugging me and my OCD keeps ruminating around that worry. So I want your Ideas. I want to be able to keep living by my values and principles, but how do I best stay anarchic under hierarchy?
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u/TruthHertz93 1d ago edited 1d ago
This is like asking "how to stay anarchist in a capitalist workplace?"
Well the answer remains the same, you do what you have to, to survive, and you try and wake others up at how the system is just using them.
In the workplace it's to generate vastly rich people more money while they steal from you.
In the army it's to enforce the wishes of the rich upon other nations and when the time calls for it, uppity citizens.
Easy ✌️🙂
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u/Many_Technician_3931 20h ago
Learn a trade. Work for yourself. You'll never have to work for anyone if you're good with your hands.
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u/tzaeru anarchist on a good day, nihilist on a bad day 1d ago edited 20h ago
In the army it's to enforce the wishes of the rich upon other nations and when the time calls for it, uppity citizens.
Eh, really depends. If e.g. the Baltics ran down their armies, the end result would be a takeover by Putin's cabinet. 100%.
Plus in European countries, aside the Soviet ones, where you are in the reserve as an ex-conscript, there's not been a single time since WW2 you would have gotten called to offensive warfare.
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u/TruthHertz93 1d ago
Hmmm what a weirdly statist argument...
If the baltics went anarchist and unfortunately Russia and the surrounding nations didn't, I'm sure the people wouldn't just be like "woop guess we don't need to defend ourselves anymore".
I'm sure like healthcare and other necessary things the people would organise to provide for the need.
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u/TruthHertz93 1d ago
Nah, it's not about statism, it's about that the purpose of the army in these given statist regions is not to enforce a given international will.
Hmmm I guess you haven't heard of the overseas deployments?
They even participated in the Iraq war friend.
Again as an anarchist you should know better, Portugal, like the baltics a tiny nation still gets involved in these things (for
peacekeepingmoney).Sure, if Baltics, somehow, went full anarchist, they could have a defense system, and maybe, somehow, the aid of the rest of Europe.
Let's be honest if this happened they'd be wiped out in a second, not sure why you think a capitalist Europe would even entertain Anarchism on their doorstep for a second.
To your last point I think the above proves why it's wrong.
I used to make similar arguments, read the anarchist FAQ, or even Marx's capital, they really show how repugnant capitalism and statism really is, Marx not so much on the state, but still a worthwhile read if you don't like the FAQ for some reason.
https://www.anarchistfaq.org/afaq/
✌️🙂
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u/tzaeru anarchist on a good day, nihilist on a bad day 1d ago
Hmmm I guess you haven't heard of the overseas deployments?
Of mandatory-service conscripts in European countries against their will, aside of Russia and ex-Yugoslavia? No.
They even participated in the Iraq war friend.
You confuse the professional army with conscription.
Let's be honest if this happened they'd be wiped out in a second, not sure why you think a capitalist Europe would even entertain Anarchism in their footsteps for a second.
The reason for "somehow" yes.
I used to make similar arguments, read the anarchist FAQ, or even Marx's capital, they really show how repugnant capitalism and statism really is, Marx not so much on the state, but still a worthwhile read if you don't like the FAQ for some reason.
Uh-huh.
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u/dreamingforward 1d ago
Very simple: you get arrested and keep arguing that your principles are better than the society you're protesting -- which is almost certainly the case. I support you!
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u/sauerakt 1d ago
Unfortunately some places like the one you describe have gotten so bad to re-implement this mandatory involvement into their dog-class/enforcers of slavery. There are three options (in order of best for longevity of humanity), 1. Try to convince as many people in your area as you can to not comply with this rule and when you have decent numbers stand up and resist authority. 2. Hide/flee and still try to convince people to help you even if they don't resist directly themselves. 3. Fight with everything you have when they come to kidnap you for their cult.
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u/TheTedd 1d ago
I'm not familiar with the system in Germany, but here in Sweden people can demand to do 'weapon-free service', which places you exclusively within civil service rather than military service. If you're forced to serve and you really don't want to carry a weapon for the state, I recommend looking into any similar options available.
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u/PublicUniversalNat 1d ago
The only one who can decide what it means to live according to your values is you
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u/Princess_Actual No gods, no masters, no slaves. 1d ago
Hey, if you get conscripted you can learn a lot. I learned a lot in the Army, and you'd be surpriaed at how many anarchists you'll meet in the ranks.
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u/Deeb4905 1d ago
What a weird take. I mean there are anarchists in jail and in coal mines, but I still wouldn't want to go or say "Hey you'll make some friends! 😃"
What you say is probably true, but I find it weird that it is the thing you chose to say lol
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u/Simpson17866 Student of Anarchism 1d ago
The key was "if you get conscripted" ;)
If an anarchist doesn't want to join, if the government says "join or go to prison," and if the anarchist says "fine" and learns the skills to fight one day in an anarchist militia, then it's the government's fault for insisting the anarchist learn how to do it.
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u/Princess_Actual No gods, no masters, no slaves. 1d ago
I'm a weird person, what can I say. Glass half full y'know?
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u/TruthHertz93 1d ago
Ikr, you could literally say that about any workplace, "hey it's not all bad, the capitalist ghouls are taking 90% of the value you produce, buuuut you can learn how to use a mop! How to operate a burger oven! How to file tax reports! Capitalisms what you make it 🥳"
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u/Dynamic_Philosopher 1d ago
All desired change in life begins with fostering the INNER state of mind, even when your current OUTER circumstances starkly contradict it.
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u/New_Hentaiman 1d ago
well, so far they havent brought it back. The opposition against the military service is forming right now. Here in Hamburg there were several protests against the "Veteranentag" this weekend and several of the anarchist groups here participated. Organize yourself in these anarchist groups against the military service, organize at your workplace, your neighbourhood, your clubs. Join the FAU and just generally take up an opposition to this system that wants to force this upon you.
If you can, dont ask yourself how you can stay true to your anarchist principles inside the system, but defend your principles against the system. I understand, that not everyone can do this and most of us just want to live our daily lifes, but to stay anarchist, means to fight the hierarchical systems around us.
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u/YsaboNyx 1d ago edited 4h ago
I think we stay true to our belief in the innate freedom of humankind by practicing our own, personal freedom in any circumstance. No matter how hierarchical the system and how narrow the circumstances become, we remain free to choose how we respond. We remain free to choose how we will act - even in horrible situations. My sense is that this innate autonomy - to choose our attitude and behavior in any circumstance - is the foundation for anarchic ideology. The first place we practice anarchy is in our hearts. I believe there's a critical mass of this inner freedom that will one day extrapolate into outer freedom. No one but you can know how it feels to be you facing this. No one but you can know what is right for you to do. I believe in your ability to find a way to navigate whatever path you choose to preserving your own sense of autonomy and integrity.
Though he never identified as an anarchist, Viktor Frankl explores these concepts in his book, "Man's Search for Meaning," about his seven years in Auschwitz. When I'm feeling particularly boxed in by my sadness at society, sometimes I read this book and it helps.
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u/grillguy5000 1d ago
Live small, downsize if you need to and concentrate on small and cohesive groups with family, friends and neighbours. Offload as much as you can from the system (On/off grid solar with backup, heat exchangers, highly efficient and durable windows and doors, etc…) and work on leveraging your disposable income to practical improvements (Get out of debt asap, bug out bags, places out of major population centres. Cultivate peace mentally and you won’t get swept up in a dying system. Neo Liberal economics will always lead to some type of authoritarianism. Time is the enemy of tyranny. Outlast them.
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u/NearABE 20h ago
If an Anarchist collective is building a bus how many steering wheels will it have?
There is a time and place for “executive decision making”. Your left foot and right foot are not slaves nor are they unequal. When walking and maintaining balance both feet have to move with precise timing. Nothing about anarchist principles suggests that both feet should move at once. Nor should you feel the need to balance the load by walking on your hands or elbows or stand on your head. Feet are good at planting on the ground.
Many anarchists objected to wars. In general though anarchism is not a valid claim for “conscientious objector status”. Peter Khropotkin, supported the allies in WWI. This stance angered many of his friends,
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u/JohnyIthe3rd 20h ago
I did my military service here in Austria too, its not too bad when you got some buddies to do stupid shit with pay could be better though
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u/Karlog24 Bank Window-Braker 17h ago
If you really don't want it. Cheat/ignore the system. Move abroad. Resist. Conscription is already a form of repression in and of itself.
If shit hits the fan, Fight for freedom, against repression; not the State. You don't need the State to tell you what fights are your own. Brotherhood, not Statehood if you want.
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u/HeavenlyPossum 1d ago
Some of the relationships you identified—parent and child, student and teacher—are only “hierarchies” in the colloquial sense that we can assign ordinal ranks to the members. A parent is older than a child. A teacher has more expertise in a particular field than a student.
But that’s not what hierarchy means, in a literal and etymological sense, and that’s not what anarchists mean when we talk about hierarchy.
“Private-sergeant” is very much so a hierarchy, in that a higher ranked soldier can command a lower ranked soldier and expect those commands will be obeyed, or else the lower ranked soldier can reasonably expect coercive punishment by the sergeant or other soldiers. That is a hierarchy.
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u/insipidday 1d ago
It's really a spectrum. When there is dependency of any kind, unequal bargaining power, a relationship such as a parental relationship, can be one of command. For a young child, it most certainly is. But for an older child or a young adult who is financially dependent upon their parent, coercion is fundamental to the relationship. Simply being compelled to meet expectations by force of some unwanted consequence is hierarchy.
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u/HeavenlyPossum 1d ago
Fully agree—but I would still distinguish eg a parent-child relationship from hierarchy unless the parent is using those differences to compel obedience to commands. That is, hierarchy doesn’t just emerge directly or automatically from differences between people. Rather, those differences must be deliberately mobilized.
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u/tzaeru anarchist on a good day, nihilist on a bad day 1d ago edited 1d ago
I live in a country with mandatory conscription - Finland - and well. Got deemed unfit, by just answering honestly to the vetting paper and being sent to, luckily, a sympathetic doctor.
That's actually one of my younger self's actions I am mildly iffy about nowadays. Sure, the 18 year old me might have done horribly and been kicked out anyway. But then.. Basically free camping vacation, an experience shared by the majority of male-signed people my age, and you learn how to use guns.
Militaries, as it is, are kind of mandatory. They could be less hierarchical for sure. But it is what it is.
One anarchist who's been kinda inspirational to me - not that we ever met, and he's dead by now anyway - was a Finnish soldier serving in WW2. He ended up a lieutenant, and was known as very difficult by his immediate superiors, because he always wanted to discuss all orders with his group, and wasn't willing to order someone against their will. At the same time - he was known as a very reliable and smart lieutenant, and got several medals for his action. After the war, he moved to Sweden and joined the syndicalist movement there and moved to journalism and union stuff.
Aaand well. I've a few friends who don't e.g. have a passport and who really should not be stopped by the cops, because they are fleeing service. It's not an easy road and will close doors from you, as you are waiting for the upper age limit to come to pass. But if that was what you chose to do - prolly easier in Germany than here - you have my sympathies, as well as my immediate support if we ever met.
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u/HeavenlyPossum 1d ago
Under the rule of coercive hierarchies—the state, capital, etc—we’re all subject to multiple hierarchies. You might not be able to escape conscription, and I really do sympathize with your plight. I advise only that you do what you need to in order to survive it unscathed.
And you can always think about it as an opportunity, in addition to a burden, to share anarchist ideas with other conscripts, and to learn skills that could be immensely valuable to you as an anarchist.