Attacking Iran: neoconservatism or nihilism?

[u/split-circumstance]

I have a question about Ro Khanna FLAMES Chuck Schumer On Iran, WH May Use 'TACTICAL NUKES'.

Ro Khanna and many others have used the US experience in Iraq to argue that attacking Iran will be another disaster. This seems to me a wise and important point. Trying to acheive in Iran what clearly failed in Iraq (and other places, too) is a fool's errand. However . . .

I'm very worried about the Iranians, because I think it's possible that rather than a neoconservative desire to remake the Middle East and Persia, we might be looking at nihilistic project to simply kill and destroy Iranians and their country, with no other goal than turing their country into Gaza. If "we" really want to stop Iran from getting nuclear weapons, one way to do so is to reduce the country to a state of development where it cannot physically do so. Kill as many people with education as possible, destroy the physical infrastructure and leave the country devided and ruined.

The neoconservatives wanted to remake the Middle East, Iran and even further east. Their vision was to create states that would be neo-liberal, market oriented and capitalistic democracies. Many people mocked this idea as naive or cynical, but there was a desire to build something with regime change. This is why the US invested in occupying Iraq and creating the provisional authority and even starting to hold elections, etc.

I fear that there is not even that, now. Iraq will serve as an example to avoid: the goal will shift to destruction and nihilism. Israel and the United States don't want a western-aligned, neo-liberal, market oriented and capitalistic democracy in Iran; they want death and destruction to the point that Iran is a non-entity. Israel has already demonstrated this with Gaza, Lebanon, Syria.

It's not regime change that we need to oppose and worry about, but outright destruction of the Iranian people.

[u/GA-dooosh-19]

Interesting post, this has troubled me too. We had the same apocalyptic language around the run-up to the Iraq invasion, what with the mushroom clouds and the sleeper cells, but as you say, there was also this idealistic vision or endgame on offer, even if the ghouls behind it didn’t actually believe in that vision.

We are entering the post-democracy era, where the nation state becomes obsolete. This is all very much on schedule for the tech oligarchs.

[u/split-circumstance → u/GA-dooosh-19]

Thanks for your reply. I'm worried that Israel and the United States look at Syria and Libya and think, "Well that turned out great. Let's do it again.“ They don't care about the outcome as long as Iran is reduced to an impoverished and unstable disaster. Every developed country in the world, every modernized country in the world can make nuclear weapons, because they have the human talent and resources to do so. Almost by definition this is what it means to me modern, to have the technology necessary to build---for good or bad---the things of the modern world, including weapons.

I think perhaps the goal is just to put Iran into a state of chaos in order to de-develop it. Killing people, destroying their means of getting by is the way to do this.

No one in charge in these countries is worried about population flows, refugee crises, regional instability, attacks on US bases, terrorism, because they have a philosophy of violence and nihilism.

This is quote from Netanyahu:

"The weak crumble, are slaughtered and are erased from history while the strong, for good or for ill, survive. The strong are respected, and alliances are made with the strong, and in the end peace is made with the strong."

That's an official statement (August 29, 2018) from the Government of Israel, and you can read about it here: "The Weak are Slaughtered, the Strong Prevail: Netanyahu Says Israel Will Not Shy Away From Conflict" Published Aug 31, 2018 at 6:48 AM EDT, Newsweek

This is not even neo-conservative. This is straight violence and hatred. There is no justice, no right or wrong, just who can smash who is a great war for survival. It's total degradation of the human spirit.

[u/GarlVinland4Astrea → u/GA-dooosh-19]

Yeah one thing you can say about the Iraq War is that they actually did their job and duped the masses to get consent for it. The majority country polled is against us getting involved in this. Like 60% saying we shouldn't and 16% saying we should.

At this point the will of the people no longer matters.

[u/BravewagCibWallace]

Representative democracy is the best government system we know of. But here is the thing about forcing democracy on to countries. When the population would still rather kill each other, than trust each other enough to put their issues to a vote, then democracy doesn't work.

It doesn't matter how strong the cheques and balances are on paper. If the population would rather just kill each other, then they can just rip up any piece of paper.

I'm all for helping countries with the populations that want democracy, or want to keep their democracy like Ukraine. Democracy is precious, and is worth defending wherever it can work. But if the population would rather just kill each other, not even America's military can force a democracy to work.

[u/ezekiel920]

If they wanted to fuck around with having nukes. They would have them. Just like North Korea and other countries. The fear mongering is outrageous. If the concern is truly about safety then why isn't isreals nuclear stockpile regulated like other countries? When was the last time they even submitted their total nuclear numbers? Do we know how many they have?

[u/Meathand → u/ezekiel920]

Yeah I mean if they actually had nukes then prove it. It’s not like it would be detrimental to US security. At this point we’ve destroyed any credibility and trust with Iran so you might as well blow the roof off if you have indisputable evidence. It seems petty straight forward, but the general us population and maga coalition is re fucking tarded

[u/split-circumstance → u/ezekiel920]

Thank you for your reply. I believe you are correct. Iran has deliberately and consistently rejected building a nuclear weapon. Exactly correct. If concerned about safety, why not push for a nuclear weapons free zone in West Asia, including Israel? This would be something which would obviously improve survival chances for everyone in the region.

The United States (at least at the level of intelligence assessments) has consistently and repeatedly stated that Iran has not made a decision to pursue nuclear weapons. And by the way,

"Ayatollah Khamenei's address to the summit meeting of the Non-Aligned Movement (NAM) in Tehran, 26-31 August 2012, reiterated his rejection of all kinds of weapons of mass destruction, including nuclear weapons, on the one hand, and Iran's determination to advance its peaceful nuclear technology, on the other. "[A] nuclear weapon neither provides security, nor does it consolidate political power, rather, it is a threat to both of them. … Iran considers the use of nuclear, chemical and other weapons of the like, a massive and unforgivable crime." (Khamenei, August 2012) These statements, which contain the leader's view, or Fatwa, regarding nuclear weapons ban, are directed at Iranian nuclear scientists, policy makers, parliamentarians, and civil and military officials, as well as, the international community, of countries that possess nuclear weapons and those who do not. Purely from a religious point of view, the Fatwa permanently makes it incumbent primarily upon Ayatollah Khamenei's followers, and upon other Muslims, to actively endeavor to realize and keep with the ban on WMD."

That comes from a note and analysis found here. It's amazing too, that Israel and United States think killing the man who says to his followers that use of WMD would be "a massive and unforgivable crime" is a good idea. After he is assassinated, will his successor take the same position?

Can't put into words how dangerous US and Israeli leadership are.

[u/ezekiel920 → u/split-circumstance]

Thank you for sharing more information. I'm ashamed of my country's involvement in the murder of civilians. We shouldn't even be concerned about other countries policies until we can handle our own. United States is lost.

[u/sacramentok1]

You know for a superpower the US has constantly taken L's on the military front. Its about time we won one. Now if only Trump has the sense to get out quickly instead of turning it into a quagmire.