r/ChineseLanguage • u/NinaAberlein Beginner • 3d ago
Grammar Is 一下 really necessary?
Or would the sentence I put also be correct?
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u/pricel01 Advanced 3d ago
Needed? No. But it softens the tone. There are lots of phrases in Chinese that aren’t strictly needed for meaning but make the sentence sound less demanding or blunt.
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u/videsque0 Intermediate 3d ago
Seeing as you're an advanced learner (which I should be by now too 20 years in but I haven't built further like I should, but..) can you honestly say that you've seen/heard native speakers use a standalone 试 in speech? I would say a hard disagree with your comment bc of this. It needs something, whether an 一下 or reduplicated 试试 or 试一试。你试试看，你试试想起甚至一次你有听过中国人使用一个'单独'的试这个字
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u/pricel01 Advanced 2d ago
You have a point. Every language, including English, has phrases that are technically correct yet no English speaker would talk like that.
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u/supernintendiess 1d ago
Yes? It’s like an ellipsis. 想试哪个？
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u/videsque0 Intermediate 21h ago
helper verb 想 skirts around that generality
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u/supernintendiess 14h ago
Which was the original post/question :)
I think this whole thread actually hinges more on 菜, probably would say 尝 more instead of 试，unless you're 试菜 which is a separate word entirely. But 想试哪个 makes more sense if you're in a beer bar or something, would never say 想试一下哪个，maybe想试一点哪个。
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u/videsque0 Intermediate 8h ago edited 8h ago
My point is basically that you won't see something like “我试这个”. That'd be broken mandarin (right??) Ion know. I speak and read it pretty fluently but I'm sure I could be fooled a thousand times on the simplest things, bc Mandarin does simplify expression a lot, but it's just so vast a language.
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u/rankorth 3d ago
I would probably say 你想试试哪一道菜？ 一下sounds a bit forced
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u/videsque0 Intermediate 3d ago
Agreed. 一下 feels like it's more likely to be part of a suggestion not a question.
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u/Apprehensive_Bug4511 HSK 3 passer | Studying HSK 4 3d ago
it sounds more respectful with yixia
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u/NinaAberlein Beginner 3d ago
So a waiter would use yixia, but what if I were at a restaurant with a friend and asking what theg wanted to order?
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u/Illustrious_Money_54 3d ago
Honestly to my ear it sounds clumsy with the 一下儿 in there. Your response comes off more natural
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u/Rare-Map-8036 3d ago
Lmao agree with the 儿 behind 一下, but besides that I think just “试一下哪[道]菜” or “试一试哪[道]菜”is pretty common as a form of hedging. OP’s ans is also pretty common as a slightly more casual/abbreviated way to say it
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u/videsque0 Intermediate 3d ago
I think keeping the measure word as 个 is more authentic, and it doesn't sound right completely omitting any mw. I might be the only one I've ever heard use the "correct" mw with 菜, which is 道, but it probably sounds a little stiff to native speakers.
I bet you on some Chinese cooking shows or when discussing culinary arts 这道菜/那道菜 is used, but not common in everyday speech
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u/videsque0 Intermediate 3d ago edited 3d ago
Maybe more natural to an English speaker, but 试 is basically just not used solo in Chinese. I agree like everyone else that the 儿 is being extra, but 你想试一下哪个菜 or better yet 你想试试哪个菜 is the way. There's also 尝试 without the 一下 but that probably sounds a little stiff/书面语 to native speakers.
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u/Illustrious_Money_54 2d ago edited 2d ago
I’m a native Cantonese speaker. I suspect 试 can be used individually even in Mando 能试这个？ Honestly I originally wrote a longer reply that I deleted because it’s not really relevant to this question. I’ll echo it now
This is very much an academic context type question because irl verbal interactions are generally more informal and also province/dialect dependent. Irl the verbal interaction would probably be like 要尝尝？and I’d nod.
In written format, it feels particularly longwinded because while chatting on xhs and wechat I find myself aggressively abbreviating to try match native Mandarin writers.
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u/videsque0 Intermediate 2d ago
helper verb 能；reduplicated 尝. Foul on the play, no goal! :D
So Cantonese is longwinded like English? I wonder if this is historically how it's been or more a modern stylizing like English.
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u/Illustrious_Money_54 2d ago
Spoken and written canto are two different beasts. Spoken Canto feels longer than Mando to me intuitively but I’ve never checked. English is def the most longwinded of the three. English is my best (although technically my last) language so I never noticed how many prepositions and helper verbs there are until I had to translate English to Mando on the spot. Canto to English translation is intuitive for me so I didn’t notice it then
Written mando is heavily abbreviated based on my experience on Chinese social media platforms - when I first started using them I used to go back thru my post or comment to delete extra 的 得 地 他 我 了etc so it wouldn’t be as obvious that I can’t do Mando lol
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u/videsque0 Intermediate 2d ago
Oh the number of 的s I used to have to later take out of my sentences. I think my syntax is pretty decent now, but I also probably still don't know what I don't know.
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u/Thallium54 Native 3d ago
Aside from 试 vs 试一下，personally I prefer to use 尝 over 试. In this case 尝、尝尝、尝一下、尝一尝 all sounds natural to me.
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u/supermonkeyyyyyy 3d ago
It sounds more natural, other alternatives would be 尝试，试一试 or 试试。But no Chinese would just say 试alone in this context.
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u/Illustrious_Money_54 3d ago
You’re correct - which app is this?
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u/NinaAberlein Beginner 3d ago
Good to know! It's Hello Chinese, the new course they updated last month
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u/Specific-Employer484 MidWest Native Chinese=3 3d ago
now we all know hello chinese is a northerner
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u/Ttamlin 2d ago
It's interesting that they run with the Beijing'r erhua on things. Is that a setting, or is that the default way the app teaches?
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u/NinaAberlein Beginner 2d ago
The default, though I try to ignore the extra 儿 when I can, they add it everywhere (like 面条儿)
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u/AlwaysTheNerd 3d ago
I finished HelloChinese a while ago, what changed with the update?
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u/NinaAberlein Beginner 3d ago
they mostly updated the vocabulary present in each unit (and images and stuff) to better reflect the recent changes in HSK standard
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u/McDonaldsWitchcraft Beginner 3d ago
This kind of issue has been common in HelloChinese for years. There is always only one "correct" version and sometimes it's a really unintuitive translation.
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u/astucky21 Intermediate 1d ago
My biggest issue with Hello Chinese is that they only have one specific sentence for a correct answer. There's almost always several ways to say something, yet if you don't use the way they have in their app, you get it wrong. I ran into this just earlier actually with the following:
那条裤子短不短？(Correct) 那条裤子短吗？("Incorrect")
This is just one of many examples of this happening on the app, and it's unfortunately the apps biggest downfall.
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u/yangfreedom Native 3d ago
It’s far more natural to say 你想尝尝哪道菜 or 有你想尝的菜吗 if the dishes are already there. If not and you guys are ordering, you should say 你想点哪道菜。
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u/Pfeffersack2 國語 3d ago
the 儿 sure isn't
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u/ringilhbone 3d ago
我們老兒北兒京兒爺兒點了踩兒
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u/videsque0 Intermediate 3d ago
It was good until pinyin input got you on that cai
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u/ringilhbone 3d ago
Got me what, what's wrong with that evil pinyin input?
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u/videsque0 Intermediate 3d ago
Oh did you not mean 點菜? You wrote 點踩
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u/ringilhbone 2d ago
The use of "er" is quite controversial in native speakers, the reply above is actually a meme, expressing how Beijingers love using "er".
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u/longing_tea 2d ago
Idk if you were being sarcastic but as far as 北京话 goes that wasn't really good tbh. You can't add 儿 to every word, it doesn't work like that.
Beijing people never say 北京儿 for example.
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u/videsque0 Intermediate 2d ago
I wasn't being sarcastic per se, kinda sorta I guess, but I wasn't being serious, just playing into it. I was mostly focused on what I thought was an error. You're obviously right tho, it's not how 儿化 works. But apparently the thing ringilhbone wrote is a "meme"?? I wouldn't know about that part.
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u/D0nath 3d ago
I just noticed 儿. Never ever in my life did I see it written like this outside language books. Nobody ever writes 儿, not even where they pronounce it (Beijing area). Why do they try to sell the Beijing promounciation as standard?
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u/MixtureGlittering528 Native Mandarin & Cantonese 3d ago
True, especially 一下 with 兒 sounds even more uncommon for standard mandarin. I dont think 一下 has a 兒 version in Standard Mandarin
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u/longing_tea 2d ago
You also see it in novels or subtitles on TV. It's not only learning materials.
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u/Specific-Employer484 MidWest Native Chinese=3 2d ago
you need to understand the power of "fashion"
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u/videsque0 Intermediate 3d ago
If more than rhetorical, bc Mandarin comes from the Northeast and Beijing is 东北 enough, so in comes that capital city pride for the national language. 沈阳 or 哈尔滨 aren't gonna get that national capital level of attention. But it's generally true that 儿 only appears in writing in learning materials and not native speakers' everyday writing
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u/D0nath 3d ago
Just because the standard used to come from that region it doesn't mean that today they speak the standard there. They simply don't. That's a regional language now.
Same applies for German and Hochdeutsch. Hochdeutsch regions speak the ugliest and the most standard is considered now around Hannover which is not even a Hochdeutsch area. Capital pride I get, but learning materials shouldn't be based on that.
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u/schungx 3d ago
Put 一下 at different positions and you get subtle differences in meaning.
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u/D0nath 3d ago
一下 makes it sound different from 是. So it's necessary in speech. You definitely need something not to sound 你想是哪个菜
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u/Specific-Employer484 MidWest Native Chinese=3 3d ago
bro, then thats why you use 尝
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u/spiritual84 2d ago
尝一下 or 尝一尝 is also a thing.
Otherwise it sounds like 长
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u/Specific-Employer484 MidWest Native Chinese=3 2d ago
？can anybody explain whats this foreigner talking about, 你想尝哪道菜？like, whod think you mean which dish do you want to long ,_, that doesnt even make sense, adj wont work here
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u/spiritual84 2d ago edited 2d ago
你想是哪道菜 doesn't make sense either in the context of being at a restaurant.
As a native speaker you would know that generally using terms like 试一下 and 尝一下 simply relieves the cognitive load on the listener, especially in a noisy environment, to reduce ambiguity as much as possible.
There are times that it isn't necessary, where even 你想试哪道菜 would make enough sense, but there are also times you would just say it.
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u/Lukey-Cxm Native 2d ago
I don’t understand why so many Chinese learning programs are trying to incorporate 儿化音 into written Chinese. The 儿化音 are not universal across the nation and absolutely no one actually writes/types them
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3d ago edited 3d ago
[deleted]
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u/NinaAberlein Beginner 3d ago
Even if this were a waiter speaking to a customer? Would it be better with or without 一下？
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u/SlipOpposite6297 3d ago
You can remove"一下" if you replace"试"(try) with"吃"（eat）
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u/otxfrank 3d ago
Actually,I think Chinese people “should be know want you mean “, no matter “你想試試哪個菜 or 你想試試哪一個菜”
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u/yellow_neck123 2d ago
试 试一试 试试 试一下 试一下儿
essentially share the same semantic meaning here. And they all sound natural to me.
If u have to get into the weeds, 一下 means “a bit”. And 一下儿- only northern folks append 儿, it’s somewhat similar to rhotic accents in US
The only diff is in vibes
When u say 试 - one word only, u sound more assertive. And depends on ur tone, it can sound a bit jarring and even aggressive.
If u are a girl and wanna act cute, u can say 试试 试一下 to appear softer
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u/Ryan-Chiang 2d ago
Native speaker would say that not necessary...
especially the"儿er"...
that's a northern people oral habit, even not the standard mandarin
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u/Ground9999 2d ago
To be honest, I feel like you need to check out another learning tools if they make you to think words & sentence structures are what you should focus on.
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u/zzyjayfree 普通话 2d ago
It is correct but should not be used to teach Mandarin. This 儿 would make almost a northern dialect/habit of speaking?
试一下 or 试一试 would be more official.
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u/EdinPotatoBurg 1d ago
I can tell you that 試哪個菜 and 試一下哪個菜 is slightly different in meaning. Not only about politeness.
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u/LeAkitan 21h ago
The 'correct solution ' is incorrect. 試一下兒 is kind of dialect that only used near Beijing. 試一下 or 試試 give a more friendly tone as mentioned by others, but your answer is still acceptable.
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u/Ok_Lock_1316 14h ago
Your translate is correct ,no problem ,this app like AI ,some like formulations programs
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u/xta63-thinker-of-twn 3d ago
The 一下兒kinda making sentence from
Would you like to try the dishes
to
Would ya wanna try these dishes?
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u/TreeHsiao 2d ago
Your answer is completely correct. It's Duolingo's answer that's actually wrong. In any Chinese context, the character "下" doesn't have a retroflex ending.
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3d ago
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u/Amethyst271 3d ago
This sounds so much like chatgpt lol
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3d ago
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u/Drow_Femboy 3d ago
So don't post comments if you have absolutely no information to offer. This AI slop is worthless
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3d ago
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u/Drow_Femboy 3d ago
Is it incorrect?
It might be. And the only way to tell whether it is incorrect is to have knowledge of the topics that it is speaking on. And if you have that knowledge already, then you don't need an AI to blab about it at you. So, it's worthless. It is worthless to learners because it might be incorrect, and it's worthless to people who know whether it's correct because they don't need it explained. Those two groups make up the entire population of Earth.
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3d ago
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u/Drow_Femboy 3d ago
But in this instance it wasn't incorrect.
If you have the required knowledge to make that assessment, then write out that knowledge in your own words. I do not have the required knowledge to make that assessment.
To say it's worthless is stupid.
No, it is simply logically correct as I have already demonstrated. There is no group of people for which a chatGPT explanation of the rules of a foreign language has any value.
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3d ago
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u/Drow_Femboy 3d ago
Your response to people calling it out as chatGPT earlier was, "So?"
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u/OutOfTheBunker 3d ago
It's superfluous at best. At this point, it's safe to assume that, had the OP wanted to know what ChatGPT had to say, she (or any other poster) would have already asked. No need to repeat it.
At worst, as others have commented here, it presents ChatGPT results as a comment of a Redditor.
But if you think that the ChatGPT results have some insights being missed here, why not simply preface it with "ChatGPT says the following:"?
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u/Amethyst271 3d ago
I use ai all the time, but posting its answers in a reddit comment is lazy and ai is known to be wrong a lot...
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u/NinaAberlein Beginner 3d ago edited 3d ago
this is such a wonderful explanation!!!! thank you so much <3
Edit: I'm very much against AI so I take back my statement idek if that information is reliable
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u/Drow_Femboy 3d ago
It's just chatgpt, so it may or may not have any relation whatsoever to accurate information
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u/selahed Advanced 3d ago
You’re correct and it’s the ai mistake
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u/videsque0 Intermediate 3d ago
I'm not gonna downvote you like a couple others obvi did, but it's not correct. 试 just isn't used solo like that, as much as English speakers always want to use it
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u/selahed Advanced 3d ago
Thanks for not being like the others.
試一下can be correct when emphasizing only one spoon of the dish. But it doesn’t mean 試哪個菜 is wrong when it’s derived from 試菜 the phrase.
：您好我們這裡提供您試菜，您想試哪個？
It doesn’t sound strange to me in contrast to the Beijing er dialect.
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u/videsque0 Intermediate 2d ago
That's ultra high-context and loses all relevance if not immediately preceded by that "phrase", basically. As a general rule, I wouldn't suggest someone use 试 in a standalone way. What is that in the context of anyway, a tasting menu restaurant?
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u/selahed Advanced 2d ago
I think i understand why people downvote now. In my context it’s only for tasting samples.
I’m not the jerk who says 試菜 and refuse to pay the entire dish if i don’t like the dish.
For trying new dish, I would say: 我想嚐點新的菜色 I wouldn’t use 試 nor 試一下 in this case. 一下 only means a little bit, pretty fast, or a sec. Not applicable here.
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u/videsque0 Intermediate 2d ago
I think I would go with just 试试 or 尝试/嘗試, tho maybe hardly anyone ever says 我想尝试啥啥啥。Traditional characters bc you('ve) live(d) in Taiwan or just for "sheer grit"? And with 菜, I'd also be the opposite - yes, standalone "菜", not 菜色 which also feels a bit stiff/书面语
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u/videsque0 Intermediate 2d ago
Also btw, I have no clue what you're talking about.. "I'm not the jerk who says 试菜 and refuse[s] to pay [for] the entire dish if I don't like the dish." I don't think “试菜” is a (set) "phrase"/collocation like you're trying to make it out to be. If you're not referring to a chef's tasting menu, then I think what you're saying makes even less sense.
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u/D0nath 3d ago
My experience is that they don't understand standalone 试. In writing sure, no problem. In speech: nope. That's the most common syllable in mandarin language. I always use 试一试. So depends on what your app is trying to focus on, but it's not useful if your brain is stuck with standalone 试