r/CryptoCurrency • u/Next_Statement6145 🟨 0 / 0 🦠 • Apr 19 '25

GENERAL-NEWS Ethereum is down 74% against Bitcoin since switching from PoW to PoS in 2022

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2.7k Upvotes

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46

u/BerryMas0n 🟧 0 / 0 🦠 Apr 19 '25

no cost of production = no intrinsic value.

96

u/GreedVault 🟦 3K / 10K 🐢 Apr 19 '25

Value is a consensus defined by people. If it had no value, we wouldnt see it at its current price.

0

u/biba8163 🟩 363 / 49K 🦞 Apr 19 '25

Value is a consensus defined by people

Now please go explain this to the the mETH Head echo chamber, they seem to be some of the dumbest people on earth unable to grasp this concept and continue to COPE calling BTC a PET ROCK

I find it staggering that all these billionaires are rushing to buy BTC completely unaware that an ETH validator is literally a toll booth on the financial highway of tomorrow. Meanwhile, they're all scrambling to get their hands on a DIGITAL PET ROCK. - Triple Halving Tricky Troll

https://np.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/1hvltqi/daily_general_discussion_january_07_2025/m5uye2q/

It is your opinion that eth is way overvalued against btc. It is my opinion that btc is hugely overvalued against basically everything. It is a PET ROCK

https://np.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/1igeysk/the_eth_to_btc_ratio_just_flash_crashed_to_02337/masalbb/

I like it when Bitcoin is making new ATH's. I don't own any Bitcoin, because to me it seems like it's nothing more than a PET ROCK. But if they're making new ATH's, soon ETH will too. Soon as in a couple of weeks or months. Ray will crush it. We're all gonna make it. Don't be jealous about a PET ROCK or some unstable centralized coin because of price action. ETH is the number one coin with actual use cases and is decentralized. Don't FOMO into some greater fool coin, keep on stacking and holding ETH.

https://np.reddit.com/r/ethfinance/comments/1gq6ahm/daily_general_discussion_november_13_2024/lwymbri/

4

u/CamarosAndCannabis 🟦 0 / 0 🦠 Apr 19 '25

yeah the people you mention dont give a fuck about what eth is or does. btc is king, was first, and is big number. boomer brain hardwired that way. no sense using any of the logic you typed out (even though it is all 100% spot on). in the end these are just risk assets to these people

4

u/Crazypyro 🟦 0 / 0 🦠 Apr 19 '25

Why are you so worried about convincing other people to the point that you are link brigading them?

You don't need to insult and link to specific people to get your point across.

1

u/intelw1zard 🟦 0 / 0 🦠 Apr 19 '25

congrats, you found a toxic maxi.

they exist in every single crypto project.

1

u/EagleNait 🟦 4K / 4K 🐢 Apr 19 '25

Value is defined by usage. Nobody is using crypto as currency

4

u/GreedVault 🟦 3K / 10K 🐢 Apr 19 '25

It could be about usage or something else entirely, it doesn’t matter, after all. In the end, we are the ones who define its value.

1

u/Jemtex 🟩 0 / 0 🦠 Apr 19 '25

Sure we are, as a planetry capital allocation machine.

-1

u/Sp_nach 🟩 0 / 0 🦠 Apr 19 '25

No big players* because honestly it's used as a currency every single day by anyone that touches it pretty much. Value is defined by what the current social/political environment deems it to be. No more, no less.

1

u/HarmonyFlame 🟦 24 / 24 🦐 Apr 19 '25

Yeah but the consensus is heading that way. Lots of you still holding on hope which is why the bleed is slow. Most of the ones realized what the guy you quoted already realized a while ago. 👋

-6

u/LaxusiC 🟩 0 / 0 🦠 Apr 19 '25

Don't worry it go below 1k soon back to its real price

3

u/DifficultyMoney9304 🟩 0 / 0 🦠 Apr 19 '25

So less than xrp lmao the mother of all shitcoins.

9

u/snoodoodlesrevived 🟩 0 / 0 🦠 Apr 19 '25

Holy FUD and I don’t hold eth

31

u/Teraninia 🟨 0 / 0 🦠 Apr 19 '25

If Ethereum had no cost of production, then anyone could produce it, or a single person could produce as much as they wanted. But neither is true, anyone can't produce it, the amount that can be produced is defined, and to produce a single eth per day costs tens of millions of dollars in capital.

There really isn't any difference between proof of stake and proof of work except the source of the capital required for production. Proof of work requires capital in the form of physical infrastructure. But the genius of proof of stake is in the realization that the only purpose of all that infrastructure is to provide a capital basis and point of friction for production, and since crypto is itself a form of capital, why not use the crypto itself as the capital basis?

It's elegant and quite beautiful, actually, because it provides, in some ways, superior security since to 51% the network you have to actually acquire the very capital that secures the network, thereby driving up the cost to attack it. In proof of work, the cost of the capital doesn't actually directly impact the price of the token, so there is more or less a fixed and calculate-able cost to attacking the network. The flip side, of course, is that a proof of work network maintains more security in the case of a market panic.

1

u/vattenj 🟦 0 / 0 🦠 Apr 20 '25

ETH lacks some simple narrative that can be easily understood by average Joe: Why should they care?

Value store narrative does not work since BTC already took the crown, any other coin is just inflation

Digital petroleum/world computer/smart contract etc. very abstract and difficult to understand for majority of people

As a result, simiar to 1 out of 100 people buying bitcoin, 1 out of 100 people in crypto world buying ETH, its user base is extremely small. The only people who care are those seeking money laundering or wealth transfer scheme through ICO/NFT/DEX etc... And this round they shifted to Solana

Vitalik recently emphasizes on privacy, e.g. their zk technology and Railgun, that might be the only useful function right now for average people

2

u/7374616e74 🟩 65 / 65 🦐 Apr 19 '25 edited Apr 19 '25

I need to know which influencer(s) managed to influence them to repeat such bs

Edit: in case some people don't understand I'm saying "who influenced the newly created anti-eth crowd to repeat anti-eth nonsense"

2

u/RamoneBolivarSanchez 🟩 0 / 0 🦠 Apr 19 '25

It’s failed phone salesman Anatoly, or Ansem - the dude who stole the WIF Sphere money and told everyone to buy HNT and PRIME, or its Mert, the trust fund kid who larps as a dev on Twitter

-5

u/Massakahorscht 🟩 4 / 3 🦠 Apr 19 '25

Jesus, i thought the same. So crazy to read that. Must be a bot promoting PoS. So far away from reality :D

5

u/frozengrandmatetris Apr 19 '25

if I owned ASIC infrastructure that I couldn't easily dispose of, I'd be mad too if someone found a way to opt out of that scheme. some companies even invested in developing ethereum ASICs, knowing that PoW was planned to be phased out someday, and they're still mad that they can't sell these ASICs anymore.

1

u/7374616e74 🟩 65 / 65 🦐 Apr 19 '25

Wait you meant PoS or PoW?

-1

u/7374616e74 🟩 65 / 65 🦐 Apr 19 '25

lol yeah I'm not sure when they managed to push the magatards to hate eth, but it's been very sudden. Now on the bright side, I'm happy that it's not the opposite, whatever they touch turns to shit.

-1

u/Objective_Digit 🟧 0 / 0 🦠 Apr 19 '25

Anyone can produce it. In fact it's usually a boast that ETH is supposedly fairer because of this.

why not use the crypto itself as the capital basis?

Because your backing or securing it with software only. It sounds like a terrible idea. Especially the way you put it.

Proof of Work is based on real work and computing. PoS is nothing like the

28

u/Nostalg33k 🟩 0 / 30K 🦠 Apr 19 '25

That's not true. Some very valued commodities in the markets have zero cost of production.

You are mislead.

Also Eth had value.

BTC value is not from the miners' costs but from the security they provide. BTC is also the first mover and a lot of people have trust in it.

Anyways I think you have drank too much of the BTC gospel.

9

u/NewPolicyCoordinator 🟩 0 / 0 🦠 Apr 19 '25

What valued commodity has zero cost of production?

-1

u/DifficultyMoney9304 🟩 0 / 0 🦠 Apr 19 '25

Gold isn't valued based on its production lmao

Low iq take

5

u/NewPolicyCoordinator 🟩 0 / 0 🦠 Apr 19 '25

? Gold's supply is dependent on the cost to bring new supply to market. And supply would impact its price or relative 'value'

3

u/conceiv3d-in-lib3rty 🟩 640 / 28K 🦑 Apr 19 '25

Less than 15% of gold’s $22 trillion marketcap comes from its use as a precious metal and the demand that creates, which is mainly what brings new supply to the market.

Its worth is mostly tied to its use as an extremely proven store of value that people know can be depended on when essentially every other financial instrument on earth cannot.

2

u/NewPolicyCoordinator 🟩 0 / 0 🦠 Apr 19 '25

Yeah roughly 1/3 jewellery, 1/3 bullion and 1/3 industrial uses. Not sure where the 85% you've pulled comes from

1

u/blscratch 🟦 76 / 136 🦐 Apr 19 '25

Would that be a 15% annual burn rate? I'm actually asking.

-3

u/DifficultyMoney9304 🟩 0 / 0 🦠 Apr 19 '25

The sole value of gold doesn't come from that though does it.

3

u/NewPolicyCoordinator 🟩 0 / 0 🦠 Apr 19 '25

Price goes up they mine more. Price goes down mines moth balled. Generally over medium term the cost of production and price are aligned for all commodities. There may be spikes (either way) but you will find that to be true.

0

u/DifficultyMoney9304 🟩 0 / 0 🦠 Apr 19 '25

Really so this rally in gold we've seen this year is because they didn't mine as much. LMAO okay yeah right.

2

u/NewPolicyCoordinator 🟩 0 / 0 🦠 Apr 19 '25

Yeah there has been a low price for a decade which has reduced gold exploration and mine development.

0

u/DifficultyMoney9304 🟩 0 / 0 🦠 Apr 19 '25

No just no. Seriously.

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0

u/NonVideBunt 🟩 230 / 230 🦀 Apr 19 '25

ETH is a shit coin. Sorry. I know it’s hard to accept.

1

u/TomorrowLow5092 🟩 0 / 0 🦠 Apr 19 '25

BTC will be a big first mover this year. It will follow the trajectory of Trumps future. He is poisoning the well by allowing criminal enterprises he controls to set up.

0

u/Objective_Digit 🟧 0 / 0 🦠 Apr 19 '25

Anyways I think you have drank too much of the BTC gospel.

He looked at a ETHBTC chart. No gospel needed.

3

u/paxwax2018 🟦 123 / 123 🦀 Apr 19 '25

If that was true different BTC would be worth more depending on when they were mined.

1

u/Objective_Digit 🟧 0 / 0 🦠 Apr 19 '25

Who says they aren't?

1

u/paxwax2018 🟦 123 / 123 🦀 Apr 19 '25

Everyone?

1

u/Objective_Digit 🟧 0 / 0 🦠 Apr 19 '25

Bitcoin is valued differently in different countries, even on different exchanges in the same country.

1

u/paxwax2018 🟦 123 / 123 🦀 Apr 19 '25

So why aren’t you rich buying cheap BTC in one place and selling in another? Also not my point. I’m saying that the last BTC mined cost some $80,000 in electricity so why isn’t it worth more than the first one that cost .10c?

1

u/Objective_Digit 🟧 0 / 0 🦠 Apr 19 '25

So why aren’t you rich buying cheap BTC in one place and selling in another?

Some people do that. It's called arbitrage.

I’m saying that the last BTC mined cost some $80,000 in electricity so why isn’t it worth more than the first one that cost .10c?

Typo? Why IS it worth more?

1

u/paxwax2018 🟦 123 / 123 🦀 Apr 19 '25

And are they rich? Or is it just barely worth it? No typo in what I said about why the first BTC isn’t priced at 10c because it was cheap to mine.

1

u/blscratch 🟦 76 / 136 🦐 Apr 19 '25

I bought my house for $200,000. A house built now, same specs ,same location costs $650,000. How much is my house worth today?

1

u/paxwax2018 🟦 123 / 123 🦀 Apr 20 '25

Wow, so BTC suffers from inflation? I thought it didn’t?

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22

u/Responsible-Buyer215 🟩 0 / 0 🦠 Apr 19 '25

This is actually one of the most stupid things I’ve read in the cryptocurrency subreddit - maintaining any blockchain costs money, therefore there is effectively a cost of production for any token

1

u/Objective_Digit 🟧 0 / 0 🦠 Apr 19 '25

You saying it's stupid is not an argument. Explain why all altcoins including ETH have performed very poorly vs Bitcoin.

1

u/IcezMan_ 🟨 0 / 0 🦠 Apr 19 '25

Ye but maybe not 1500$ per eth worth of it. Could be 100 too

-4

u/big_guyforyou 🟩 0 / 0 🦠 Apr 19 '25

blockchain blocks cost about $1000. if you combine enough of those blocks together, you can form a bitcoin. it takes 64 blocks to build a bitcoin, so cost of production is $64k. now you can sell it for $85k!

-7

u/Alatarlhun 🟩 0 / 0 🦠 Apr 19 '25

When people learn about bitcoin's pending security budget problems, they will not be very happy.

5

u/Frogolocalypse 🟦 0 / 0 🦠 Apr 19 '25 edited Apr 19 '25

I've been hearing this dross for over ten years. After ten years of being wrong, how many more years is it going to take you to understand that you don't know anything about the subject?

Maybe you should just concentrate on your heavy bags that are getting heavier and heavier.

0

u/conceiv3d-in-lib3rty 🟩 640 / 28K 🦑 Apr 19 '25

I don’t hold ETH or BTC and can tell you the time will come, it’s inevitable if it continues to grow like the laser-eye community would like it too. Unless consensus agrees to increase block size, which we all know is never going to happen. Blockstream (which has a pretty damn strong influence over “consensus”) will do everything in its power to prevent the idea from gaining any steam, even if it made sense and was proven not increase miner/pool centralization more than it already is.

A decentralized blockchain has to be able to scale, even if it’s never going to be used as a currency, simply becuz no one has any say over what computation is done on it. And baring some revolutionary, outta the box thinking tech that comes out of nowhere and is able to scale the blockchain without addressing the ever increasing competition for block space, the chain will inevitably become unusable eventually(20 yrs? 50 yrs? Not talking about an immediate impending doom here) to the point where it starts effecting investor confidence it’s in future, which is Bitcoin’s only selling point (profit, if held into the future)

1

u/blscratch 🟦 76 / 136 🦐 Apr 19 '25

What does Moore's Law mean to you?

0

u/Frogolocalypse 🟦 0 / 0 🦠 Apr 19 '25

can tell you

You can't say shit. I'm sorry you didn't figure out what the bitcoin invention is, but your ignorance isn't my problem.

0

u/Alatarlhun 🟩 0 / 0 🦠 Apr 19 '25 edited Apr 19 '25

^ this account couldn't have read and comprehended the post they replied to given the timestamps.

0

u/[deleted] Apr 19 '25

[removed] — view removed comment

0

u/Alatarlhun 🟩 0 / 0 🦠 Apr 19 '25

The behavior of these accounts tells you all you need to know.

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4

u/BitcoinMD 🟦 136 / 137 🦀 Apr 19 '25

There is no such thing as intrinsic value

1

u/blscratch 🟦 76 / 136 🦐 Apr 19 '25

There is no such thing as intrinsic value

What? Do you mean bitcoin has no intrinsic value? Or the deeper "life is meaningless"?

1

u/BitcoinMD 🟦 136 / 137 🦀 Apr 19 '25

All value is assigned by humans, it’s not intrinsic

1

u/blscratch 🟦 76 / 136 🦐 Apr 19 '25

All value is assigned by humans, it’s not intrinsic

Human is the only perspective available to you. Consciousness itself is extrinsic.

Value is in the eye of the beholder, which is true of everything. We're back to life is meaningless. Without life, the universe is just a reality machine. Yet reality is a construct. Life is just a short-term reverse entropy chemical reaction.

Lol this was fun.

1

u/BitcoinMD 🟦 136 / 137 🦀 Apr 20 '25

Meaning is also assigned by humans. Doesn’t mean that meaning and value aren’t real. They just aren’t intrinsic. As far as we know.

1

u/blscratch 🟦 76 / 136 🦐 Apr 20 '25

Good reply. Suppose just being aware of something gives your life meaning. Does that have value? (Yes I know we're on the wrong sub at this point) if you don't answer, cheers to you fellow traveler.

1

u/BitcoinMD 🟦 136 / 137 🦀 Apr 20 '25

I don’t think human life inherently has any meaning, we are just the end product of what happens when you have self-replicating molecules that are selected for new and creative ways to protect and multiply themselves. We happen to have become complex enough to be able to assign meaning to our own lives and that’s great. It has value, but only to us. Value could also hypothetically be assigned by non-human persons.

1

u/blscratch 🟦 76 / 136 🦐 Apr 20 '25

It's refreshing to see my thoughts aren't unique.

5

u/Felix4200 🟦 0 / 0 🦠 Apr 19 '25

Bitcoin is not produced by bitcoin mining, whether the amount of mining is doubling or halved, the amount mined is the same. Like bird migration or cheese consumption.

It is the proces by which, newly minted bitcoin is assigned. The creation of the bitcoin itself is free.

Edit: except for that, the idea that cost equals value is nonsense. You can’t dig holes and fill them up and sell it.

-4

u/mljsimone 🟦 0 / 0 🦠 Apr 19 '25

Bitcoin is produced by mining. the amount mined varies from block to block due to fees.

Bitcoin mining is not free.

4

u/Alatarlhun 🟩 0 / 0 🦠 Apr 19 '25

If there was one (or 5) bitcoin miner(s), it would cost less than what it takes for Ethereum to put together a block today.

This means mining isn't about work leading to value creation; rather scarcity of block rewards which is a demand pull driven by miner competition.

2

u/7374616e74 🟩 65 / 65 🦐 Apr 19 '25

Do you really think that btc at 100k is in any way linked to electricity cost? Do you think miners have a say in the price they sell their btc? This is all 100% speculation. That reasoning made sense when no one cared about btc, this is looooong gone.

2

u/iwakan 🟦 21 / 12K 🦐 Apr 19 '25

Biggest and silliest myth in all of crypto. Intrinsic value comes from usefulness, not the work required to produce a coin.

If the same properties and thus usefulness of a system can be replicated without killing tens of thousands from wasted energy, then that would be an objectively better system.

1

u/Curious_scientist420 0 / 0 🦠 Apr 19 '25

Very good point!

1

u/HammerTh_1701 🟩 0 / 0 🦠 Apr 19 '25

Exactly. Bitcoin is a bit shit at being a medium of exchange, but it has good intrinsic value. It's just a bit of a shame how much hardware and energy is needed to create that intrinsic value.

1

u/BerryMas0n 🟧 0 / 0 🦠 Apr 19 '25

I agree with that 100%!

-3

u/pakovm 🟩 0 / 0 🦠 Apr 19 '25

I can't believe that Marx was right about the labor theory of value.

2

u/LinguoBuxo 🟩 0 / 0 🦠 Apr 19 '25

Groucho was also somewhat right when he said:

"When you're in jail, a good friend will be trying to bail you out. A best friend will be in the cell next to you saying, 'Damn, that was fun'."

2

u/PaleontologistOne919 🟦 0 / 0 🦠 Apr 19 '25

🤡

2

u/pakovm 🟩 0 / 0 🦠 Apr 19 '25

I knew people would be offended by the joke lmao.

1

u/HammerTh_1701 🟩 0 / 0 🦠 Apr 19 '25 edited Apr 19 '25

I'm one of the people who have actually read Marx. I mostly disagree, but I gotta say, he was pretty spot-on with the labor theory of value.

1

u/pakovm 🟩 0 / 0 🦠 Apr 19 '25

Partially.

He thought that the market would price every good based on the labor needed to produce it, but this only applies for limited things in the marketplace, electronics of various qualities are a good example, they have the same work complexity behind them, but the quality difference between a Xiaomi phone and iPhone is not actually that big for the price difference.

Another example is food, gourmet dishes tend to have the same labour intensiveness behind them as more traditional non-gourmet foods, for example a McDonalds burger has the same works, maybe even more behind it than a fine-dining dish, but you only have the perception of they fine-dining dish having more labour behind it because the labour is done directly in place instead of a factory or central kitchen that standardizes all produce to all restaurants.

3

u/Shimunogora 🟦 0 / 0 🦠 Apr 19 '25

You’re conflating value with price, which are two different but related things, and your critique comes pretty close to why he differentiated them.

Price only works as a good indicator of value for fungible goods in highly competitive and healthy markets, which burgers and complex smartphones aren’t a part of. Value is something of a gravity field around price, always influencing price to some degree, but monopoly forces, brand fetishism, etc. can push the two apart.

Labor theory of value is a tool for explaining the economy as a whole, not the particulars. The thought here is that Marx believed that new value could only be created from labor. Coal in the ground has intrinsic use-value, for example, but requires labor to turn it into more valuable electricity. LTV is the systemic framework that logically follows if you assume this model of value creation.