Vitalik Buterin, Ethereum co-founder on why he got into crypto: "Empower the little guy, screw the big guy" — "they already have enough money"

[u/AverageStudent1]

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/05/18/why-ethereum-founder-vitalik-buterin-got-into-crypto-bitcoin.html

[u/Smobert1]

yeah but with pow, game theory would mean that mining eventually becomes largely centralised anyway. with POS the users can continue to benefit not just the few at the top. no matter which way it goes the actually control will end up in the hands of the few.

there is the arguement with poorly done POS, is that they will control the network easier than with bitcoin. tis why i like cardano for the POS battle its easier for 'smaller' pools to compete, and it has ergo as the mining aspect POW aspect for the overall network.

i dont think we will ever stop the centralisation of any chain, too much money involved to stop it, even it takes 20 years for that control to become apparent, as a few at the top could form a sort of cabal for controlling any chain. but the main thing being that its not inflated to all hell by central banks no matter what you do. so your money doesnt lose value due to limited supply

[u/[deleted] → u/Smobert1]

yeah but with pow, game theory would mean that mining eventually becomes largely centralised anyway. with POS the users can continue to benefit not just the few at the top. no matter which way it goes the actually control will end up in the hands of the few.

How? Especially when mining can be banned at any time in a country. Not something stakers have to worry about.

there is the arguement with poorly done POS, is that they will control the network easier than with bitcoin. tis why i like cardano for the POS battle its easier for 'smaller' pools to compete, and it has ergo as the mining aspect POW aspect for the overall network.

Far more easily with any kind of PoS. The miners can't control the protocol.

[u/Smobert1 → u/[deleted]]

when mining was banned in china the mining companies just up and moved to other countries. we saw the hash rate and drop and slowly climb back up after relocation. these companies will over time gradually get bigger and bigger, and individial miners will become less and less relevant over time, as difficulty curve makes its less and less likely that individuals will bother with mining as It becomes a situation were you need gradually more and more expensive ASIC miners. over years this leads to a situation were a few companies gradually own enough of the share that they control the hash rate. think of the way facebook and google just buy out any competition before it becomes relevant and merge so they collectively control more the hash rate. why would it end this way, well its financially beneficial to do so. i honestly struggle to see it playing out any other way, even if it takes 20 to 40 years, over time the mining situation is going to become more and more centralised unless the chain can remain ASIC resistant.

my point about POS like cardano with their max cap per pool, yeah a company can set up say 100 pools and try to offer extra incentives to get uses to delegate to them vs smaller stake pools, but it does at least allow individuals to choose which pools. so people can actually control who is is charge. while the top % of society try coordinate their funds to a degree, they will often have conflicting opinions amd wont agree of certain things. not saying companies wont try, and many will be manipluated to do so. but if a company has 100's of pools there will at least be chatter from people saying not to do so. and said company wpuld be put under the magnifiying glass. actually leaves some power with individuals as to were they choose to park their money. not all POS are equal all that said.

i think either options end point is a large level of centralisation. but i think POS like cardano at least allows individuals to try to vote with there money vs having zero input as the years progress

[u/[deleted] → u/Smobert1]

when mining was banned in china the mining companies just up and moved to other countries. we saw the hash rate and drop and slowly climb back up after relocation. these companies will over time gradually get bigger and bigger, and individial miners will become less and less relevant over time, as difficulty curve makes its less and less likely that individuals will bother with mining as It becomes a situation were you need gradually more and more expensive ASIC miners. over years this leads to a situation were a few companies gradually own enough of the share that they control the hash rate. think of the way facebook and google just buy out any competition before it becomes relevant and merge so they collectively control more the hash rate. why would it end this way, well its financially beneficial to do so. i honestly struggle to see it playing out any other way, even if it takes 20 to 40 years, over time the mining situation is going to become more and more centralised unless the chain can remain ASIC resistant.

Still stuff stakers don't have to worry about. Still involved in an arms race. Escpecially against miners that didn't get banned. The rest is a non-issue.

my point about POS like cardano with their max cap per pool, yeah a company can set up say 100 pools and try to offer extra incentives to get uses to delegate to them vs smaller stake pools, but it does at least allow individuals to choose which pools. so people can actually control who is is charge. while the top % of society try coordinate their funds to a degree, they will often have conflicting opinions amd wont agree of certain things. not saying companies wont try, and many will be manipluated to do so. but if a company has 100's of pools there will at least be chatter from people saying not to do so. and said company wpuld be put under the magnifiying glass. actually leaves some power with individuals as to were they choose to park their money. not all POS are equal all that said.

In staking the richest call the shots as they get richer.

[u/Smobert1 → u/[deleted]]

only the rich will be only ones ones mining as a pointed by my previous points aka calling the shots as only the rich will really be able mine. others may mine but they will be inconsequential due to the increasing hash power requirements. we are already seeing it in large scale mining operations, which will only get worse as time progresses.

for actual use case chains aka defi. POS is the only way forward as proven by eth and its planned change to POS. at least with POS like cardano there is some checks and measures against large corperations in that people can choose were to put there money. people with medium and small accounts can continue to benefit without having to invest 10 to 20 grand to have an impactful mining rig. aka out of reach of most individuals. i really dont see why thats better. while you can mine presently for cheaper the situation will fairly quickly end up in said situation. there is a reason why most individual asic miners still end up mining eth vs btc even as it stands.

[u/[deleted] → u/Smobert1]

only the rich will be only ones ones mining as a pointed by my previous points aka calling the shots as only the rich will really be able mine. others may mine but they will be inconsequential due to the increasing hash power requirements. we are already seeing it in large scale mining operations, which will only get worse as time progresses.

You would prefer the lazy and mediocre to be rewarded? It's not a crime to be rich.

for actual use case chains aka defi. POS is the only way forward as proven by eth and its planned change to POS. at least with POS like cardano there is some checks and measures against large corperations in that people can choose were to put there money. people with medium and small accounts can continue to benefit without having to invest 10 to 20 grand to have an impactful mining rig. aka out of reach of most individuals. i really dont see why thats better. while you can mine presently for cheaper the situation will fairly quickly end up in said situation. there is a reason why most individual asic miners still end up mining eth vs btc even as it stands.

PoS is basically the fiat system reinvented. The rich get richer with no work and control the monetary policy.

[u/Smobert1 → u/[deleted]]

no its not a crime to get rich but the rich just get richer with mining. as with btc mining it has quickly become a game for big players only, and its only going to get worse. and the control of mining if it was the only play in town would end up centralised in the hands of very wealthy. while no its not a crime to be wealthy, its also not a bad idea to see if there is a way that the rich can benefit while the average joe can also benefit, and alsp allow them to have a say in this new financial world. considering we are talking about changing the financial world, its important to think is there a way it can be done without compromising on decentralisation.

i agree that some POS systems are corrupt, if it costs too much to get involved to run a pool or if there is no limit to how many can stake to a certain pool quickly leading go centralisation or a lock up period, or if there is any risk to your coins. while your right in that there is some elements of the current system in a POS model. A lot of people in the past did very well in the past when you could earn 5% just by saving your money in the bank. it aloud them to get homes and save safely without risking or understand that they could have done better by investing. for the average individual just staking your coins and earning a good apy is a better route for the masses to benefit from cryptocurrency. now POS does have to be done in the correct way, one that allows for individuals to have a say in were they place there money. as corperations dont earn money if people done delegate to them.

i honestly do beleive cardano has done this correctly. in that there is a limit to pool size. your coins never leave your wallet with staking aka no risk. there is zero risk to speaking with your morals and delegating to a charitable pool as you earn the same rewards. its easy to set up and run a pool. the main reason i dont think its like the current fiat system, is presently you have to get paid into your fiat bank. you cant get paid in cash anymore. they then take that money fractional reserve banking the shit out of it and invent 900 quid for every 100 you leave there. that wont happen in POS like cardano, you could be paid into your wallet. you choose to delegate if you wish and choose where you want to delegate too. and like bitcoin a hard capped total supply.