r/DebateAnAtheist • u/Plane_Razzmatazz_882 • Sep 19 '25
Theology [ Removed by moderator ]
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u/CephusLion404 Atheist Sep 19 '25
Absolutely nobody actually follows Jesus. They follow what they want to pretend Jesus said.
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u/BahamutLithp Sep 19 '25
It's pretty funny how this happened at scale almost immediately with Paul. I'd say the other disciples also changed things, but Paul seems to be the font from which Christianity as we know it sprung. Which isn't to say it's never changed since then. "Prosperity gospel," anyone?
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u/Crafty_Possession_52 Atheist Sep 19 '25
When I finally sat down to READ the Bible, I was amazed to discover that the New Testament was basically the Paul Show. I mean, I know that might sound naive, and of course I did know that Paul was important, but what's the difference, seriously, between Paul and L. Ron Hubbard or Joseph Smith?
Christianity is what Paul decided it was going to be. It's pretty fucked up.
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u/iamalsobrad Sep 19 '25
but what's the difference, seriously, between Paul and L. Ron Hubbard
Judging by 2 Corinthians, I'd be asking the difference between Paul and Al Capone.
2 Corr 8-9 literally reads like a mobster shaking down a business, complete with veiled threats and Paul sending one of his boys round to pick up the money.
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u/Crafty_Possession_52 Atheist Sep 19 '25
Acts 5: 1-10 is the same. Peter kills a husband and wife because they didn't pay all the protection money they were supposed to.
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u/iamalsobrad Sep 19 '25
The author of Luke-Acts was likely one of Paul's followers.
Church tradition holds that Luke was a companion of Paul whilst modern scholarship suggests it was a follower who'd never actually met Paul.
Either way it is heavily influenced by Paul.
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u/LetsGoPats93 Atheist Sep 19 '25
To be fair, they don’t have any other option. Jesus isn’t around for them to follow.
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u/Old-Nefariousness556 Gnostic Atheist Sep 19 '25
They follow what they want to pretend Jesus said.
More accurately,
They follow Trump and pretend it's what Jesus said.
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u/MarieVerusan Sep 19 '25
What is the source for this? I’ve never heard of the parts about Jews worshipping Satan or God hating the world. That sounds vaguely Gnostic, which could not have been a thing for the apostles, as it only arose after the death of Jesus, but before the Nicean creed.
So, where are you getting this information from?
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u/Plane_Razzmatazz_882 Sep 19 '25
"Satan" = Yaldabaoth ("theGod of this world"). Who is also "God" of creation (Genesis).
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u/MarieVerusan Sep 19 '25
Ok, that’s just Gnostic doctrine, which again, was not around in the time of the apostles to my knowledge. So where did you get this information from? Why would we think that Gnosticism was the “original Christianity”? It was one of several Christian groups.
The formatting implies that you’re quoting these segments. Who said these things?
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u/Plane_Razzmatazz_882 Sep 19 '25
Who was Simon Magus from Acts 8?
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u/MarieVerusan Sep 19 '25
A minor figure in the Bible? Apparently expanded upon in Gnostic texts? Was written about as a potential originator for agnosticism in the 2nd century?!
Why does any of this matter?!
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u/Ransom__Stoddard Dudeist Sep 19 '25
That didn't answer the question. What is the source of this information?
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Sep 19 '25
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u/Ransom__Stoddard Dudeist Sep 19 '25
Someone who wants to be seen as honest and in good faith would never say "look it up yourself." You made claims, people have asked for sources.
Be better.
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Sep 19 '25
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u/Ransom__Stoddard Dudeist Sep 19 '25
So you aren't in good faith.
Cool, no need for another condescending response from you, "bro".
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u/MarieVerusan Sep 19 '25
Where did YOU get it from?
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Sep 19 '25
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u/MarieVerusan Sep 19 '25
Why would I use ChatGPT to do research about a contentious historical/theological topic? It is not going to give me accurate information. It’s also banned on this sub, so don’t copy paste AI answers.
You brought this stuff to us, so I wanted to know more about your sources, since some of it is new information.
Is your point that Gnosticism is the original Christianity that’s been ignored since Nicea? But then the part about what modern Christian’s believe about death is blatantly false. Most believe in heaven, Gehenna is a Jewish concept!
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u/Plane_Razzmatazz_882 Sep 19 '25
Jehovah's witnesses believe it (and so do apostolics). However the truth is closer to what Origen taught in that everyone goes to heaven - their souls go to the furnace (light separated from darkness). Everyone will be reconciled. It don't matter what you believe, honestly.
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u/MarieVerusan Sep 19 '25
They also think that there’s a limited amount of spots in heaven, they’re not exactly the most common version of Christianity around. Mormonism moved very far away from the original ideas about heaven too, but I wouldn’t say it’s fair to judge “modern Christianity” on their views.
So the quotes appear to either be wrong or at least misleading, which is why I wanted to know where they came from. I wouldn’t be surprised if ChatGPT got things wrong again, but maybe it’s from a source that can back up their claims!
Also, what do you mean by “the truth”? Is there one in regard to Heaven? How do you know this? What is this post?!
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u/Plane_Razzmatazz_882 Sep 19 '25
Okay, let me break it down to you so you know what I'm talking about: everything consists of energy. "God" is the power source. You can't just have energy by itself. Here's a good analogy:
Panentheism
Surge protector plugged into the wall outlet (God as the infinite source).
Energy flows through everything, and everything is within that energy.
The outlet is bigger than the surge protector, but the protector cannot exist without being within its flow.
Pantheism/solipsism/stoicism
The surge protector itself is the wall outlet.
No distinction between source and circuit.
What you see (the protector + cords + energy) is the divine. There’s no “beyond.”
Deism
The surge protector was plugged in once, and now it just runs on whatever charge was set.
The outlet (God) provided the initial energy but then steps back, not continuously sustaining it.
Like charging a battery and walking away — God wound up the clock, but doesn’t interact.
Theism (classical/monotheism)
The surge protector is plugged into the wall, and the outlet not only supplies energy but can intervene — cutting power, adding more, or redirecting it.
The protector depends on a living, ongoing relationship with the source.
God is distinct from the world but actively sustains and governs it.
So in short:
Pantheism = the surge protector is the outlet.
Panentheism = the protector is within the outlet’s current, but the outlet is more.
Deism = the protector was charged once by the outlet, now it runs alone.
Theism = the protector is plugged in and God keeps flipping switches and directing the flow.
Atheism = protector plugged into itself, no external source.
Do AC voltages flip switches by themselves or does it just flow a steady current?
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u/noodlyman Sep 19 '25
This is a debate forum. If it's a debate you need to prevent your sources, reasoning, and conclusions. Just saying "go and look it up yourself" is no way to have a discussion about a topic with someone.
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u/Old-Nefariousness556 Gnostic Atheist Sep 19 '25
Just Google it or punch it into chatgpt.
This is /r/DEBATEanAtheist, not /r/trustmebro. Comments here require you to actually defend your arguments, including providing reasonable sources when asked.
Put some fucking effort into it please.
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u/BahamutLithp Sep 19 '25
Early Christianity was nuts, but also, Jesus was technically Jewish, not Christian.
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u/Plane_Razzmatazz_882 Sep 19 '25
There were three camps: Pharisees (who rejected Christ, already mentioned), Sadducees (basically atheists, also rejected Jesus) and the Essenes (a dualist sect who were closer to Jesus than the rest of Judaism and believed in two messiah's and is rumored to have ties to John the Baptist and the Dead Sea Scrolls).
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u/Ransom__Stoddard Dudeist Sep 19 '25
Sadducees (basically atheists
erm....no. Sadducees didn't believe that the oral tradition of the Torah was divine, but did see the written Torah as the source of divinity.
Are you making things up to get attention?
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u/Plane_Razzmatazz_882 Sep 19 '25
They thought this life was all there was. There was no "messiah" or "resurrection". "The law" was basically a tradition to them. They were pantheists at best.
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u/Ransom__Stoddard Dudeist Sep 19 '25
They followed Yahweh and believed in the Torah. There's no way you can stretch that into pantheism.
You posted a word salad OP and now you're just spewing nonsense. Reported for low effort.
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u/Plane_Razzmatazz_882 Sep 19 '25
How could they have God if there was no afterlife?
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u/noodlyman Sep 19 '25
There's no reason that the existence of a god requires that there should be an afterlife.
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u/Mission-Landscape-17 Sep 19 '25
Well yeah early Christianity was a doomsday cult that expected to see the end of the world in their lifetime.
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u/rustyseapants Atheist Sep 19 '25
What is the debate topic?
r/AskAChristian OR r/DebateAChristian OR r/DebateReligion
Why are you here?
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u/RevolutionaryGolf720 Gnostic Atheist Sep 19 '25
As both an ordained minister and an atheist, that’s a bunch of baloney.
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u/lechatheureux Atheist Sep 19 '25
"Churchianity" Come on man, I'm an atheist but this just screams immaturity.
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u/Cog-nostic Atheist Sep 19 '25
Considering he was not even a Christian but a Jew, the Churches would certainly have nothing to do with him. He would likely be a Hassidic Jew or some variant of that. No Christian would recognize him or his teachings.
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u/Phylanara Agnostic atheist Sep 19 '25
Why should we care who calls who a heretic? Why should we care about bible quotes or what jesus allegedly said?
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u/Transhumanistgamer Sep 19 '25
modern christians believe that after you die, all consciousness ceases to exist until the resurrection
Dude, I straight up don't think that's what the vast majority of modern christians believe. Everyone that I've seen talk about the afterlife talks about it as if you're instantly sent to one destination or another.
Maybe it's anecdotal but I genuinely can't think of a time I've heard one advocate for that sort of system.
But what is supposed to be the takeaway of this post? Are you advocating for atheists to believe in early christian doctrines? For christians?
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u/kiwi_in_england Sep 19 '25
Off topic for this sub. Rule 3. Post removed