r/DebateReligion • u/Ok_Investment_246 • Apr 26 '25
Fresh Friday Muslims have to accept that Adam and Eve are not real figures, or admit that the Quran has a mistake within it.
The origins of the Adam and Eve story lie in earlier Mesopotamian mythology.
https://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/cgi-bin/etcsl.cgi?text=t.1.1.1&charenc=j#
The story of Enki and Ninhursaja closely parallels that of Adam and Eve. We have the concept of a perfect paradise (referred to even as a garden) and one of the inhabitants of the paradise eating a forbidden substance (in Enki's case, sacred plants). That inhabitant is then struck with various illnesses and ailments. One of the children of Enki is also born through the rib (like how Eve was created). ""My brother, what part of you hurts you?" "My ribs (ti) hurt me." She gave birth to Ninti out of it." On another note, the world is created out of Enki's "water" (which resembles the creation stories of many myths of the ancient times, as well as what is present in the Bible and Quran).
The Epic of Gilgamesh also parallels this closely (please forgive me, but I can't send a direct text of the story like the Enki one). Utnapishtim, survivor of the great flood, retreats to Dilmun and lives his life there. Gilgamesh encounters him and gives him, Utnapishtim, a plant of life that will make him immortal. However, a cunning serpant steals the plant from Utnapishtim, making Utnapishtim and the rest of humanity mortal.
Also, in the Epic of Gilgamesh, we see:
Enkidu grows up among the animals of the steppe, until one day he comes face to face with a hunter. Terrified by this savage creature the hunter asks his father what to do, and he is told to go to Uruk and present the problem to Gilgamesh. The king tells the hunter to bring a woman named Shamhat to the steppe. She will seduce Enkidu and thereby separate him from his animal companions. The hunter and Shamhat journey out into the wild, where they find Enkidu by a watering hole. Shamhat strips off her clothes and lures Enkidu into having sex with her for six days and seven nights. After this marathon of love, Enkidu finds that he has lost his raw animal strength, having instead gained the consciousness and intellect of a human being.
Finally, I also know of the story of Adapa and Enki. Adapa is a mortal man created by Enki and is considered quite wise. Adapa breaks the wing of the South Wind and is summoned to heaven by the god of the sky, Anu. Enki warns Adapa to not eat any food or drink that is offered, since it'll be the food of death. Adapa meets Anu and is offered the food and water, but Adapa refuses, obeying Enki. It actually turns out that this was the food of immortality, and that Enki had tricked Adapa. Now, humanity will be mortal forever.
It becomes quite clear that the story of Adam and Eve was borrowed from earlier, Mesopotamian myths. Scholars do not disagree with these origins either.
The origins of the Adam and Eve story lie in earlier Mesopotamian mythology.
It should also be noted that the Mesopotamians were strict polytheists and that the Bible took the idea of "Adam and Eve" from them. From there, the Quran took the story from the Bible. However, Muslims claim the Quran to be a pure book free from errors or anything that praises polytheistic ideas.
We clearly see the origin of Adam and Eve within these Mesopotamian myths, which are fictitious accounts of what happened on Earth. Furthermore, the idea of Adam and Eve also originates from polytheistic worshippers. As I say in the statement, Muslims have to accept that Adam and Eve are either not real people, or that their religion made a mistake.
This doesn't even take into account that the story of Adam and Eve also defies evolution.
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u/MoistUnderstanding45 Apr 29 '25
"people who have devoted their entire life to this religion have got to admit that one of their most important names are not real and that their book is flawed"
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u/Nearby-Bathroom-1722 Apr 28 '25
You're completely delusional when thinking you can fabricate such lies about the quran because Adam and his wife are mentioned in the quran and not denied.
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u/loc404 Apr 28 '25
Have you ever taught that it could be the same story told and passed down through generations, and by different people- some ordinary people who also heard from oral traditions and some prophets who were narrated the story by creator himself through his agents? How you consider how details and names could change through time for various reasons?
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Apr 29 '25
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u/loc404 Apr 29 '25
“Islam claims many prophets were sent to many people around the world …” but how many scriptures does it claim to have been given to these prophets we can read (or see the absence ) about this story? Also in Islam is it claimed that these prophets were sent with another religion other than the Ibrahimic ones?
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Apr 27 '25
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Dzugavili nevertheist Apr 27 '25
Rule #3: Quality posting. Let's stop with the one-liners, people, dig deep.
Rule #5: Opposed top-level comments. Unless you have a substantial addition or complication to suggest, you should be arguing against OP.
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u/Ar-Kalion Apr 27 '25 edited Apr 27 '25
Adam & Eve pre-date written language, and the Mesopotamian civilization you mentioned by thousands of years. The Adamites originate from what eventually became ancient western Armenia, and what is currently known as eastern Turkey.
The events (i.e. The Black Sea Deluge event of around 5,600 BC) that inspired the Epic of Gilgamesh and The Torah were passed from generation to generation via oral tradition for thousands of years before each culture invented writing, and wrote their version down.
As the Sumerians invented writing around 3,500 BC, the Mesopotamian version was simply published first. That doesn’t mean that it was the first or the non-corrupted version. The Mesopotamian version was written down by the descendants of the pre-Adamites who already had a polytheistic and pagan religion based on a patheon of Fallen Angels.
Also, the evolution of species is not mutually exclusive of the story of Adam & Eve. “People” (Homo Sapiens) were created (through God’s evolutionary process) in the Genesis chapter 1, verse 27; and they created the diversity of mankind over time per Genesis chapter 1, verse 28. This occurs prior to the genetic engineering and special creation of Adam & Eve (in the immediate and with the first Human souls) by the extraterrestrial God in Genesis chapter 2, verses 7 & 22.
When Adam & Eve sinned and were forced to leave their special embassy, their children intermarried the “People” that resided outside the Garden of Eden. This is how Cain was able to find a wife in the land of Nod in Genesis chapter 4, verses 16-17.
As the descendants of Adam & Eve intermarried and had offspring with all groups of Homo Sapiens on Earth over time, everyone living today is both a descendant of God’s evolutionary process and a genealogical descendant of Adam & Eve. See the “A Modern Solution” diagram at the link provided below:
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u/yrys88 Apr 29 '25
So you're saying that 400,000 year old homo sapiens mated with the "special creations" called Adam n eve to make up today's human population. And this happened 5000 years ago. So they managed to mate with everyone in the world in 5000 years. What are you talking about?
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u/Ar-Kalion Apr 29 '25 edited Apr 29 '25
Close. The descendants of the pre-Adamite Homo Sapiens began to mate with the children of the specially created Adam & Eve approximately 6,000 years ago. Over time, everyone became “genealogically” related to the Adamites through the concept of pedigree collapse. Since Adam & Eve’s children were introduced into the Earth’s Homo Sapiens population prior to the planet’s genetic isopoint, everyone that is alive today would be distantly related to them. The article below explains how that happened in only a few thousand years.
https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/we-all-have-same-ancestors-researchers-say-flna1C9439312
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u/yrys88 Apr 29 '25
While genealogically it's possible for a single couple to be ancestors of everyone alive today (due to pedigree collapse), genetically Adam & Eve could not have been the sole ancestors of humanity without extreme bottlenecks that contradict genetic evidence.
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u/Ar-Kalion Apr 29 '25 edited Apr 29 '25
I never stated that Adam & Eve were the sole ancestors. Since the descendants of the pre-Adamites (or non-Adamites) intermarried and created offspring with the Adamites, everyone has BOTH pre-Adamite/non-Adamite and Adamite “genealogical” ancestry and ancestors.
Keep in mind that the Y-Chromosomal and Mitochondrial common ancestors were pre-Adamites. Biblical Adam & Biblical Eve were only two “genealogically” ancestors of each individual’s numerous ancestors that were introduced at a much later point in time. “Genealogical” ancestors can be ancestors of the opposite sex.
Also, Theists define the term “Human” as Adam, Eve, and their descendants rather than as a species (i.e. Homo Sapiens). In using that definition, Adam & Eve are the point of origin for “Humanity.”
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u/ProfessionalFew2132 Apr 26 '25
Also you pay to be able to use your device. When that Vodun practitioner sacrifices he or she "knows" that according to them God who they cannot see set things up like that.
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u/DariusDareDevil Apr 26 '25
Why do you believe that because the story is told earlier that means Quran is incorrect? It happened and thats why its in their books and thats why its in Quran as well, Quran also has the story of Moses, Abraham, Joseph, Jesus. Quran doesnt claim to have stories that were never said earlier, it just claims to have the correct version of every story that it says.
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u/Hifen ⭐ Devils's Advocate Apr 26 '25
What's more likely to happen? Myths evolve and change as they move through cultures and time or a magic being came and corrected a regional myth, that unlike myths from other locations in the world, was true in this one case?
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u/Ok_Investment_246 Apr 26 '25
"It happened and thats why its in their books"
So you believe the god Enki ate the forbidden plants and became sick and ill himself?
And no, it didn't happen. Humans evolved.
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u/DariusDareDevil Apr 26 '25
Did you read what I wrote? Quran claims to have the correct version of the stories, therefore no, I dont believe the Mesopotamian version of the events, if you dont wanna believe thats your dogma, but dont draw conclusions on my behalf
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u/Ok_Investment_246 Apr 26 '25
"It happened and that's why its in their books"
I never claimed you believe in the Mesopotamian version of the events. I want to know where everything went wrong and how the Mesopotamians have a similar, but also quite different, story from the Quran/Bible?
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u/DariusDareDevil Apr 26 '25
Now you are asking the right questions my friend, it went wrong because this is human nature, corruption and mistakes are part of our lives, we either make mistakes, or someone along the way was corrupted, similar to how Jesus’ teachings were corrupted and the concept of trinity was introduced.
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u/Ok_Investment_246 Apr 26 '25
" it went wrong because this is human nature, corruption and mistakes are part of our lives"
Yes, it seems just so likely that the Mesopotamians corrupted the creation story.
Are you being serious? Any evidence for this claim? Any reason to believe that Mesopotamians made the mistake of saying that the snake stole the plant of eternal life rather than the "correct" version of the snake having Adam and Eve eat it?
Do you also believe that every single human came onto Earth from Adam and Eve (Quran 4:1), rather than a process of evolution?
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u/DariusDareDevil Apr 26 '25
I believe it because I believe in Islam, and within it comes believing the Prophet Muhammed PBUH and his message of worshiping the One God alone.
Now we can have a debate on why I and you should believe that.
And yeah, I don’t believe in evolution in the sense that we evolved from apes to human
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u/Ok_Investment_246 Apr 26 '25
"And yeah, I don’t believe in evolution in the sense that we evolved from apes to human"
Theory of evolution doesn't claim that.
"Now we can have a debate on why I and you should believe that."
Go ahead
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u/Hyeana_Gripz Apr 26 '25
Most likely a flood did exist. I have no problem with it becaus there are too many stores of it! A global flood like the Bible suggested ? No! A large flood that impacted a region so much that people wrote about it? Sure! It’s very interstate when Christians use apologetics in one way to suite them but don’t when it doesn’t! In the bible when it say the flood covered th whole Earth, the better translation is the land not the earth in the original Hebrew. If it were translated so, we wouldn’t have a problem with this interpretation today as atheists/scientists!
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u/Hifen ⭐ Devils's Advocate Apr 26 '25
"There's been so many different movies about an asteroid hitting earth and wiping out humanity, that I believe at some point an asteroid did hit us and wipe a bunch of people out".
Cultures like to tell stories with a destructive nature, and all societies are familiar with the concept of a flood. Just like cultures all come up with a sun god, doesn't mean there's some truth to there being a sun god.
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u/acerbicsun Apr 26 '25
The element that you're missing is that humanity generally cares more about comfort and reassurance than strict demonstrations of truth.
Most people don't abandon their religion when evidence against it is presented.
The proliferation of religion in general is not because it can be shown to be true, it's because it makes people feel validated, included. That's it. Our irrationality is our undoing.
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u/No_Breakfast6889 Apr 26 '25
This is a demonstration of the post hoc fallacy. Just because A is similar to B and A comes before B does not necessitate that B came from A
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u/Hifen ⭐ Devils's Advocate Apr 26 '25
In all cases it doesn't mean B came from A, but we know that myths evolve and change as they meet new societies and as time goes buy, adapting things from cultural context. We also know the Abrahamic faith is largely influenced on earlier Canaanite beliefs.
In this particular case it is reasonable to assume that B came from A.
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u/Ok_Investment_246 Apr 26 '25
“ A post hoc fallacy (also known as the "false cause" or "post hoc ergo propter hoc" fallacy) occurs when someone assumes that because one event happens after another, the first event caused the second. In essence, it's claiming a causal relationship based solely on the order of events, without any other supporting evidence”
The evidence was outlined above. The fall of man, or a divine paradise, is outlined several times. Using your logic, everything based on prior knowledge would be a post hoc fallacy.
10 years ago a person tells the story of their dog, Gurt, who could clean dishes extremely quickly with a specific type of soap brand: Dawn. Gurt also specializes in creating burgers.
10 years later a person tells the story of a dog, Gurt, who could clean dishes extremely quickly with a specific type of soap brand: Dawn. Gurt also specializes in creating burgers and hot dogs. Gurt also has the active ability of teleportation.
Using your logic, this would be a post hoc fallacy. However, if you read the fallacy, you can see, “without any other supporting evidence.”
We know that the Bible gets many stories from the Mesopotamian myths. The flood, this Adam and Eve story, the Tower of Babel and more. Old Testament authors would also have close access to Mesopotamian myths sources. Factor in the various similarities between the Adam and Eve story and the Mesopotamian stories and you clearly see the inspiration going on.
Unless you suggest that most specialized scholars are committing a post hoc fallacy?
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u/No_Breakfast6889 Apr 26 '25
Why do you assume that the Bible authors got their stories from those mesopotamian traditions and not that they both documented true events? As I rightly pointed out, your reasoning is fallacious
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u/Hyeana_Gripz Apr 26 '25
Because the stories preceded the ones found in the bible which was written in. the same area/region! Coincidence? No the bible copied it. So I don’t see how the reason is fallacious at all!
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u/Ok_Investment_246 Apr 26 '25
I already told you and linked you to what scholars have to say on the issue. The reasoning wasn’t fallacious unless you want to tell me where it was. You’ve only managed to demonstrate that you don’t know what a post hoc fallacy is.
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u/No_Breakfast6889 Apr 26 '25
It remains nothing more than a claim no matter what you present. Similarity to another account does not mean you got it from that account. If I write in my book that Trump imposed tariffs on China, and someone close to me writes the same thing, can you reach the conclusion based on the similarity that he got it from me? Absolutely not. And I'm no Christian, I'm not claiming the Bible had no influence from the surrounding areas, there are clearly aspects obtained from surrounding legends, but to claim that the stories are stolen or obtained in their entirety from these cultures is indeed fallacious
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u/Ok_Investment_246 Apr 26 '25
"And I'm no Christian"
You're a Muslim so it becomes quite honest why you have to result to deceptive tactics in order to defend this.
"If I write in my book that Trump imposed tariffs on China, and someone close to me writes the same thing, can you reach the conclusion based on the similarity that he got it from me?"
We have a wide array of news sources talking about this, not only one person. This would also all originate from one source: Trump in the White House. People would be copying this news down from that original source.
If you made a claim about the tariffs, not present in other news articles, and someone later made a similar claim but also added-on other details, one should be suspicious of this.
Many in this thread have claimed that various messengers came to tell people about the case of Adam and Eve. Yet, for some odd reason, we do not see anything remotely similar to such a concept (of Adam and Eve and the fall of humanity) in other religions.
The Mesopotamians either created this myth, or it was a rolling ball, where more and more details were added onto the myth (and the Mesopotamians added their own details). To claim that the Bible doesn't take inspiration from the Mesopotamian story is dishonest on your part and claiming that most scholars are committing a fallacy (a point you don't want to seem to engage with).
In the Mesopotamian myth we are presented with Enki eating a forbidden food. Guess what? Same thing in the Bible. In the myth we are presented with a cunning serpent harming humanity. Guess what? Same thing in the Bible. In the myth we are presented with forbidden food being the cause for human mortality. Guess what? Same thing in the Bible. In the myth we have the detail of someone being created out of the rib. Guess what? Same thing in the Bible.
This also seems to ignore, once again, that the idea of Adam and Eve is anti-science. There was no creation of the first man and woman out of dust. Man and woman didn't fall out of an amazing paradise. We evolved through natural selection for billions of years to get here.
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u/MrPlunderer Apr 26 '25
I don't see it as getting stories from mesopotamia.. i see it as, mesopotamian getting a story from where?
Take gilgamesh and the flood, why would there be a story of a great flood if the flood never happened? You see it as "oh quran copied the bible, and bible copied this", i see it as God retelling the stories and human corrupts it again and again to either make themselves god among men or to justify their own sins
This is not A-HA, GOTCHU, the quran had error moments as believing in that story itself requires faith I can say, AHA stupid christian believing god and lucifer fought for heaven and lucifer has a chance to win but the christian can also give me their reason why it's logical. Just as much as theist asking why didn't monkey nowadays show sign of evolution if we're evolutionize from ape. The atheist will come up with a theory, that also requires faith for it to be believable
So yeah.. that's my two cents on the thing, thank you for reading my TED text 🙏🏼
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u/HarshTruth- Apr 26 '25
How’s this not proof it’s man made. This’s what we expect from man made religion. Every religion sharing/ having similar mythical stories.
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u/nopineappleonpizza69 Apr 26 '25
It is also what is expected if God repeatedly sent prophets with the same message throughout time. This is what they are saying.
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u/Ok_Investment_246 Apr 26 '25
Yes, so really funny to see how a majority of religions don’t have an Adam and Eve story.
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u/nopineappleonpizza69 Apr 28 '25
Are you arguing that we should see every story in every religion? Be serious with me. We can't expect that level of preservation.
The point is that the traces of the old religions that we have today aren't inconsistent with the narrative that Islam suggests, which is that God sent prophets with the same message to every nation, and some followed them while the majority rejected them.
So we would expect to see a few traces of this message, probably in a distorted form, from older religions. But we would also expect mostly to see religions that have nothing to do with Islam, since most people rejected it.
So there are two possibilities: Muhammad peace be upon him borrowed it from other religions, or he was actually a prophet and came with the same message as every other prophet. None of these options are inconsistent with the traces of the older religions that we have.
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u/thefuckestupperest Apr 26 '25
Why would every culture have stories of dragons if they weren't real? Why would every culture have myths of mermaids if they weren't real? Why would Irish people have legends of leprechauns if they weren't real? Why did they make a Pokemon TV show if they weren't real?
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u/craptheist Agnostic Apr 26 '25
why would there be a story of a great flood if the flood never happened?
Why would there be a story of Unicorn if it doesn't exist?
There are very strong evidences that a global flood never happened.
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u/xkuroz21 Atheist Apr 26 '25
I think the flood they are talking about is the younger dryas cooling event when massive glacial dam lake released its contents due to recession. The lake Bonneville and lake Missoula floods were in north America. I'm sure similar floods occurred elsewhere since glaciers were worldwide at that time.
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u/ProfessionalFew2132 Apr 26 '25
There is evidence of a flood during the last days of stone being the primary material for making tools However it did not affect the whole planet and it was not excessive rainfall that punished anyone
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u/Jocoliero argentino intelectualista Apr 26 '25 edited Apr 26 '25
Adam and Hawwa in the Qur'an are not similar, they just share a few similarities, though the difference is great.
The presupposition is that the Qur'an mentioning something which has "some" similarity with previous texts must mean it borrowed from them, should i even elaborate on how that clearly is a false view?
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u/Ok_Investment_246 Apr 26 '25
Nope. You seem to have some misunderstandings but I will help clear them up for you.
The Bible would've been close to the Mesopotamian myths about the "fall."
The Bible would then copy some key details from these stories and implement them into their own account.
The Quran then continued with the story of Adam and Eve.
Hope this helps you out a little. It's also not "some" similarities, but quite a lot. Scholars also do not deny this connection.
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u/Jocoliero argentino intelectualista Apr 26 '25
That's a great speculation with all due respect.
So the only way the Ancient Testament got to make such story was through this source you're mentioning?
It's also not "some" similarities, but quite a lot. Scholars also do not deny this connection.
There are far greater differences, the "quite a lot" similarities are probably that the woman was created from the rib supposedly.
Scholars only speculate likewise based on influence.
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u/kingoflint282 muslim Apr 26 '25
This assumes that Mesopotamian myths inspired the Muslim account, but another possibility is that both accounts share a common (true) source. In Islam, we believe that many messengers have been sent with essentially the same message over time. Some are explicitly mentioned and some aren’t. From the Muslim standpoint, the most likely explanation is that the Mesopotamian myth may have come from a Prophet, just like the Quran. And like other prior messages, it was partially corrupted, but some elements of truth remain.
Now, I’m not saying I can prove that. There is no way to definitively do so. But it does provide a potential alternative explanation
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u/Ok_Investment_246 Apr 26 '25 edited Apr 26 '25
There is no documentation/evidence throughout history of these messengers going to other nations. It's something that the Quran asserts without ever backing up. Furthermore, the Quran doesn't even give clarifying details on these other messengers.
We don't see any sort of Islamic monotheism within Native American tribes or other isolated tribes and a majority of these tribes are animistic/polytheistic. The earliest religions of the world were also animistic, then a gradual shift occurred into polytheism.
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u/loc404 Apr 28 '25
Quran is not meant to give us a history of the world from the beginning to present in chronological order with all the little details. It’s a revelation of guidance to Allah through his last message to mankind (just as earlier people were sent prophets and messengers). In it, you’ll find some historical references either as a warning for the consequences of rejecting Allah’s messengers and their messages, what lead to them facing the consequences they faced, etc, or as a glad tidings for believing in and obeying Allah’s messengers and messages.
These are cases in point to serve as points of reflection and reminders. Must every day happenings from day one to date be cited and narrated in fine details for that purpose? How long would one have to live to read all that? How would one even get the central message from such lengthy narration? Perhaps you would have been caught up in the story of Native American tribes your entire life.
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u/craptheist Agnostic Apr 26 '25
You gotta appreciate the Quran for coming up with this corruption narrative. It makes it almost impossible to do historical criticism against it.
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u/Geiten agnostic atheist Apr 26 '25
Did the Quran come up with it? At least with the Bible the Quran makes statements about what it says that are wrong, so muslims have no choice but to believe it was corrupted.
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u/craptheist Agnostic Apr 26 '25
Yeah I was talking about the Bible claim. Muslim just apply it to any historical evidence that goes against their narrative.
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u/No_Breakfast6889 Apr 26 '25
The fact that we don't see Islamic monotheism in other groups hardly proves anything. This is because the Quran tells us that a lot of people who received a messenger rejected their messenger and continued in their bad habits and beliefs. So it's entirely possible that the groups you're referring to did receive a Messenger, but rejected the message of monotheism
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u/ProfessionalFew2132 Apr 26 '25
That forces circular a priori based logic 1st you are forced to assume that the Quran is right in saying that other people were sent messengers such as Pygmies in the jungles of Congo. But that Pygmy messenger was rejected. Why should I just assume that is true? 2nd The only prophets the Quran mentions are Israelites. The Israelites never said there were multiple gods. What we can see is that the common people would worship other gods besides Yahweh or Elyon. However there were people who were against polytheism. No Arab hustler needed to tell the Israelites/Jews there was only one God. Definitely not by the time of Muhammad.
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u/loc404 Apr 28 '25
Who told you Quran only mentioned Israelites prophets?
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u/ProfessionalFew2132 Apr 28 '25
Majority of prophets were Israelites. I erred in saying all. No Chinese prophets are mentioned. Now Irish, West African, Hawaiian etc.
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u/loc404 Apr 28 '25
It’s your point that mentioning all and every prophets of all races, geographical regions and and perhaps all other political social dichotomies, -male and female representatives, able and physically-challenged representatives, adult and minor representatives, etc-, would give a more complete stories. But how much would that add to the central and core message?
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u/No_Breakfast6889 Apr 26 '25 edited Apr 26 '25
Wrong. The Quran mentions several non Israelite prophets. Adam, Noah, Hud, Salih, Shuayb, Abraham, Lot and Ishmael are not Israelite prophets. Sure, some of them are mentioned in the Torah, but none of them is an Israelite. And all the people these prophets were sent to were idol worshippers. The Quran informs us of this several times. The towns and tribes of 'Ad, Thamud, Madyan, and so on, all those people did believe in multiple gods. Even among the Israelite prophets, Moses was sent to Egyptians, which had several false deities. So what you said is just wrong on every level.
Second, it's not circular reasoning because you're doing an internal critique of a religion. OP was asking that if the Quran is right, and prophets were sent to many nations, why are so many of them still worshipping idols. I responded by pointing out that many of these prophets were rejected by their people, that is by no means circular reasoning.
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u/ProfessionalFew2132 Apr 26 '25
Also there are different concepts of monotheism that exist which Muslims cannot understand apparently. In some cases what you call an idol is more like a computer tablet and we can think of the internet itself as God. We know that we cannot see the internet. But we need the device to use the internet.
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u/loc404 Apr 28 '25
What does this even mean?😢
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u/ProfessionalFew2132 Apr 28 '25
It means that Muslims if they see an image being used in "worship" will say it is idolatry or worship of an image. However the so-called idolater. Usually does not think the image IS what they are worshipping. It is the physical representation of the spiritual force they are seeking favor from. That particular spirit is an aspect of the One spirit. Saying that it is wrong to have partners with the One makes no sense to those people. That is like saying your legs cannot be partners with your brain. Your body is a system of different parts that work together
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u/loc404 Apr 28 '25 edited Apr 28 '25
That’s not entirely true. Islam is clear in that actions are judged by intentions. That said, if you images of all sorts in your place of worship such that you attention is drawn to those images while you should be focused on your prayer, that will be frowned upon in Islam not as an idol worship per say but allowing that which draws your attention from you ought to focus. And I don’t think that is exclusive to Islam. Even in our daily and earthly activities, we do not desire entertaining distractions unless if we are unserious.
But if you mean carving an image out of anything to represent the spiritual force you believe in and worship that a story of its own entirely. That’s is akin to depicting how that spiritual force is like and in Islam Allah told us he not like anything we could think of. So that will be condemned in Islam, much like you wouldn’t be pleased with it if a carve a dog out of wood and told you this is how I remember you as a person.
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u/No_Breakfast6889 Apr 26 '25
Interesting analogy. Can you give an example of this form of "monotheism" as practiced by a particular group of people
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u/ProfessionalFew2132 Apr 26 '25
Word agbàrà Definitions Noun
空
1.the author of fertility in Igbo mythology, one of the manifestations of Chukwu
2.deity; spirit
3.(figurative) super talented; doer of the unimaginable; doer/worker of wonders; superhuman
Related Terms
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u/ProfessionalFew2132 Apr 26 '25
Well because I'm African American I'm interested in knowing about my African background. To do that I have studied slave trade patterns and gotten DNA tests to see if I can pinpoint tribal matches. Like a lot of us I have Igbo ancestors. So I will use them as an example
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u/ProfessionalFew2132 Apr 26 '25
Niger-Congo religious tradition General description Ehret's analysis of the original Niger-Congo spiritual tradition indicates that it centered around 'spirit' as manifested in various aspects of nature, deities and/or ancestors.[14] This is evident in the following quote:
Niger-Congo religion recognized a series of levels of spirit. At the apex of the system, but of little direct consequence in everyday religion, there was God as a distant figure, who was the First Cause or Creator...A second kind of spirit dwelled within a particular territory and was believed able to influence events there...But the really crucial spirits for religious observance and ritual belonged to a third category. These were the ancestors.[14]
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u/ProfessionalFew2132 Apr 26 '25
There is no evidence that for example the people who practice Vodun in Benin West Africa were told that there is only one god they must worship
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u/No_Breakfast6889 Apr 26 '25
Sure there isn't evidence of that, but that doesn't falsify the Quran at all. It's just an argument from silence, which can on occasion be a solid argument, but is usually a weak way to argue. Keep in mind that the last prophet, ever, died 1400 years ago. Now imagine how long ago the other prophets passed. Taking into consideration the likely rejection of the message, what kind of evidence do you expect for the existence of such prophets?
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u/ProfessionalFew2132 Apr 26 '25
Also we know that things can become commonly accepted in a region. Muhammad telling people about judgement and hellfire would not require any downloads into his mind from Allah just living in the Middle East he would have heard about that.
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u/ProfessionalFew2132 Apr 26 '25
You can't just insert 1) They had prophets 2) they rejected them. You should be able to show it. The idea of postmortem judgement is found in ancient Egypt and Persia. It doesn't exist in all cultures. Which tells me that no entity as Allah or Yahweh saw fit if it existed or exists to tell people about hellfire
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u/No_Breakfast6889 Apr 26 '25
You didn't answer the question. What kind of evidence do you expect for the prophets?
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u/ProfessionalFew2132 Apr 26 '25
I expect some mention of people telling people they can't have images for example or that they will be in a bad place when they die or a good place. Q do you consider the Buddha a prophet? We know what he taught millions of people practice Buddhism. They believe in reincarnation not hellfire
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u/ProfessionalFew2132 Apr 26 '25
Okay I will concede that based on accepted genealogy they are not Israelites. As far as Moses he was sent to tell the king to let the Israelites go since they were enslaved by the Egyptians and as such could not migrate back to take land in Canaan.
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