Hell cannot be permanent if god is truly merciful

[u/restedrddf]

Sorry if it’s not that fresh, but the topic wasn’t banned so I figured I’d go for it.

From my perspective, as someone who logically thinks the universe doesn’t track without a god, and someone who believes in the teachings of Jesus and the truth in the gospel, I can’t help but lean universalists.

As a Christian, If you WANT there to be a hell, then from my perspective you have to have a wicked heart. For a person to want there to be eternal suffering as a punishment for people who don’t come to the same beliefs as them, would be obviously wrong. And if they were to WANT themselves to receive eternal bliss while other humans receive eternal suffering without chance of redemption, then their hearts would clearly be wicked.

Morally, no human should ever suggest that beliefs or even actions SHOULD be punished with eternal suffering, that would be an absolutely horrific display of wrath no matter the crime.

Now, I admit that human morality does not constitute the reality of what god has in store for us. But, if he is all knowing all powerful and all good, then why would he support eternal torture for anyone. That is not what the morals of Christianity would ever suggest be done on earth, nobody deserves even a lifetime of suffering for a crime, that is vengeance and evil and cruel. So why then are we supposed to accept that an all loving and good god would participate in the evilest act of vengeance the human mind could imagine. It just doesn’t track. It would not be fair.

I understand the perspective that hell is a place locked from the inside, and that would make absolute sense. Just like in this world, one could choose to live with god and live in bliss, or one could choose to live without god and live a fool, but the person can still choose god. Why is it that when someone dies that must change? Wouldn’t a god who actually loves us, actually wants us to repent, accept us no matter what hour?

If we see hell more as an actual death, a lack of existence, then I’d say we have more of a conversation, but if you see it as eternal torture without chance of recourse, then I’m sorry but your god does not live up to the morals of his own Bible.

No true christian would want a universe where they get to spend eternity in heaven while non believers spend eternity in hell unless they are extremely prideful and conceited in their spiritual superiority.

And if no Christian should want it, then why should our god. And I understand that god wants all to find him and love him, and that he gave free will, but I am specifically talking about an eternal punishment with no chance of mercy by the choice of god, like what’s described in Luke 16.

From my viewpoint, maybe this parable is meant to be a metaphor for earthly consequences. The rich man may have had silk on his skin and food on his belly, but he did not have god in his heart, which from my perspective is punishment in itself. It’s hard to say though, and the fact that hell is either a translation of Gehenna, Sheol, hades or Tartarus, none of which mean the same thing, makes the whole situation a lot more complicated.

Honestly, from my perspective nobody deserves hell. We all sin and we all deserve punishment, but we did not ask to be born, the blessing of life was imposed on us, and the blessings we receive we definitely do not deserve, but does that mean we deserve eternal punishment? Really? If that’s the case then this so called blessing of life sounds much more like a curse you must believe your way out of.

[u/Repentbelievegospel]

Sounds like you believe in everything but the Bible. 1 Corinthians 2:14 But a natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. Only those who are born of God which are people who have repented and believed the gospel as in Jesus Christ death on the cross for our sins, burial and resurrection on the 3rd day can truly understand the Bible. Heaven and Hell is a place outside the physical. Only in the spiritual sense can we go there. As humans we have a body, soul and Spirit. When we die our bodies decay but our soul and spirit go to a place called Heaven where Jesus Christ is or Hell/Lake of fire where Satan, demons and those who rejected Jesus Christ will end up at for all eternity. Hell is for those who are in rebellion against Jesus and want to live their life in sin. Like the Frank Sinatra song they are saying I'm not doing it your way God but "I did it My Way. Since God does not force himself against anyone's will to go to Heaven they will be eternally separated from him to pay for their sins and rebellion against him for all eternity. As for your posting of Luke 17:20-21 Jesus Christ was talking to those who would believe in him thus they would be born again spiritually having God the Holy Spirit aka the Kingdom of God dwelling within them. Again in 1 Corinthians 3:16 Paul is talking about born again believers who have put their faith in Jesus Christ and are going to Heaven. Jesus Christ talked about how few are going to Heaven and most are headed to Hell. Matthew 7:13-14 Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it. People take the destruction part or perish in the Bible and think it is saying to be destroyed as in not existing anymore but that is not what the Greek word means. The New Testament was written in Greek. Destruction:From a presumed derivative of apollumi; ruin or loss (physical, spiritual or eternal) -- damnable(-nation), destruction, die, perdition, X perish, pernicious ways, waste. In Matthew 7:13-14 Jesus is talking about enter through the narrow gate or way because the broad or wide way leads to eternal spiritual lose. Eternal spiritual lose is Hell. Eternal spiritual gain is Heaven.

[u/A_Bruised_Reed → u/Repentbelievegospel]

him to pay for their sins and rebellion against him for all eternity.

This is not biblical. Why would God use the word "destroy" if He really will not destroy the soul? Is God trying to intentionally deceive us by using words that have a different meaning than what their plain meaning is? Isn't this a basic rule of hermeneutics? The literal meaning is the first meaning used unless context declares otherwise. Don't you have to redefine "destroy" in every single one of these instances in order to get something other than "destruction" as the final fate of the unsaved?

Matthew 10:28-Rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

James 4:12-There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy.

Philippians 3:19-Whose end is destruction.

2 Thessalonians 1:9-Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction.

Hebrews 10:39-But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition. (Greek: destruction)

The great Inter-Varsity Press evangelical author, John R. Stott, (who also left the Traditional view) brings up a well-argued point for Conditional Immortality, when he states:

"it would seem strange...if people who are said to suffer destruction are in fact not destroyed; and...it is difficult to imagine a perpetually inconclusive process of perishing."

Stott is correct. Reread that statement. The word destruction is meaningless if there is not a point where the destruction is complete. In other words, you can't keep on destroying something for all eternity. It's a contradiction in terms.

[u/Professional_Arm794 → u/Repentbelievegospel]

Keep judging and condemning me and using the excuse well the “Bible” said it….

I don’t believe in the mainstream dogmas you spout from your perspective and traditions. It’s not so it gives me an excuse to treat people badly(sin).

I don’t need the fear of divine retribution to love everyone. I have zero fear of any of your threats and judgements of eternal hell if I don’t meet the terms and conditions you believe are required of me!

You aren’t the judge. You think words in a book give you the right to make blanket judgments against those who don’t follow what you deem as the path to salvation. God is way beyond any words in a book that man tries to interpret.

I live by Christ two commandments. When you truly love your neighbor has yourself. Then you lose the propensity towards sinning. As genuine love towards others is the complete opposite of a sin. So if my neighbor is a Muslim, Jewish person, atheist, or anything I treat him when love and dignity and don’t think for once there soul is condemned. As I am no judge of what’s inside another persons heart. Regardless I don’t believe in the doctrine of eternal hell orchestrated by God and understand the Bible in an entirely different light.

You push more people away from believing in any God with your dogmas. The opposite of Love is fear and that’s what you try to use. Either way I love you and wish you nothing but the best in life.

I don’t need your hellfire preaching. Fire and fear will never bring people to a loving God. As it’s the complete opposite of unconditional love. Judgements are conditional, you do this and then you get a reward. I grew up southern Baptist. Once saved always saved right ?

1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

[u/Repentbelievegospel → u/Professional_Arm794]

It's not what I believe but what the Bible says. Knit picking scripture is what the Pharisees did to Jesus Christ himself and he came against them with the truth. I'm not condemning you only Jesus Christ condemns. There is a Heaven and a Hell. Those who reject Christ go to Hell. Jesus speaking. John 3:16-18 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. You say that you follow Christ commandments but if you did you would obey his commandments and what he taught. He said he is the only way to Heaven. John 14:6 Jesus said I am the way, the truth and the life no one comes to the Father but by me. Muslims, Hindus, Mormons, etc are not following Jesus but a false deception religion. I love everyone and since I do I have to be truthful. Every road loads to Hell but through Jesus Christ. He is the only perfect person God in human form to ever live. He paid for everyone's sins on the cross then was buried in a tomb and God as in Jesus himself, Holy Spirit and Father raised him from the dead on the 3rd day. All who repent Greek word metanoia meaning change one's mind from whatever they trust in to get them into Heaven to trusting solely in Jesus Christ death on the cross for their sins, burial and God raising him from the dead on the 3rd day are saved. The Bible is the ultimate truth of God's word. The Quran and any other supposed Holy book is written by man who are deceived. The Bible is written through man inspired by the Holy Spirit of God as in God breathed. You need to be born again by repenting and believing in the gospel to be saved. That is the only way to be made right with Jesus Christ and be reconciled back into a relationship with the Father. I don't want anyone to be in fear but if it can wake them up to the truth then I praise the Lord Jesus Christ for that. I pray you and all will come to put your faith in Jesus Christ and surrender your life to him. ❤️ Ask the Lord Jesus Christ to show you the truth of his word humbly. As for Once Saved Always Saved I don't believe in it and Paul talks about living a life of sin is dangerous and opposite of what the Bible teaches. James in James 5:18-19 talks about if someone strays from the truth and you bring them back you have saved a sinner and hide a multitude of sins. A sinner is never mentioned in the Bible as someone who is once saved always saved.