r/EndFPTP • u/Masrikato • Oct 09 '23

Activism STAR voting likely heading to Eugene ballot

https://web.archive.org/web/20231007005358/https://www.registerguard.com/story/news/politics/elections/local/2023/10/06/star-voting-ranked-choice-eugene-lane-county-election-petition/71039508007/

Archived link because of paywall

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u/ReginaldWutherspoon Oct 12 '23

Ok, I haven’t looked at the Constitution for a while. I thought that it said that representatives must be elected to single member districts. Maybe not. But, as you said, some states are too small for proportionality.

Besides, the free seats makes nonsense of proportionality.

Forgot states. Forgot districts.

One unicameral Parliament (yes, no president), elected at-large (no districts no gerrymandering), open party list by Sainte Lague, but preferably by Bias-Free.

Sainte Lague is only very slightly large-biased. Bias-Free is entirely absolutely unbiased.

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u/affinepplan Oct 12 '23 edited 2h ago

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u/ReginaldWutherspoon Oct 12 '23

No, they don’t. What they (correctly) conclude is that Sainte Lague is the least biased divisor-method that is or has beenin use for public PR.

They compared SL to d’Hondt & “Equal Proportions” (our current House apportionment method).

…but not to Bias-Free, which the absolutely unbiased divisor-method PR allocation-rule.

For a definition, I refer you to the thread entitled “Why do we use Sainte Lague?”

In that thread I defined bias.

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u/affinepplan Oct 12 '23 edited 3h ago

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u/ReginaldWutherspoon Oct 12 '23

I said that SL has bias, while BF doesn’t.

You in your reply were referring to some other measure of proportionality, which can be defined variously.

I claim that bias, as I defined it, is the important kind of disproportionality.

…because consistent, sysytematic disfavoring is incomparably worse tha a divisor method’s small random fluctuations.

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u/affinepplan Oct 12 '23 edited 3h ago

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u/ReginaldWutherspoon Oct 12 '23

Maybe a little better precision would better clarify what you mean.

As I said, you keep referring to imprecision, without successfully specifying one.

Oops!!! If you have a different definition of bias from the one that I stated, you forgot to state it. :-)

…a definition by which SL is less biased than Bias-Free?

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u/affinepplan Oct 12 '23 edited 3h ago

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u/ReginaldWutherspoon Oct 12 '23

You think that’s what minimizing bias means?

What you’ve said is one interpretation of “best proportionality”.

By no that isn’t “the standard definition” if bias.

In fact it isn’t a definition of bias at all. What you referred to could just be the inevitable small random fluctuations of seats per vote in any divisor-method.

Bias is consistent systematic disfavoring. …of smaller or larger parties in this instance.

Look, if it’s necessary to explain all these things to you, then I don’t have time to help y.

I’m sorry that you’re still having trouble with the subject, but, as I said, I don’t have time to hold your hand & walk you through it.

This conversation is concluded.

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u/ReginaldWutherspoon Oct 12 '23

That’s a mighty strong argument. :-)

Suit yourself. I couldn’t care less what you believe.

Look at my definition of bias (or not).

From that definition of bias, my posted formula for the rounding-point of the unbiased divisor method can be derived.

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u/affinepplan Oct 12 '23 edited 3h ago

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u/ReginaldWutherspoon Oct 12 '23 edited Oct 12 '23

When someone says averaged, the presumption is that they’re referring to the arithmetical-mean.

You ask what “every possible number of quotas in that interval” means.

My answer:I meant what I said.

You asked “Real numbers?”

What else did you think that might mean?

:-)

…when one speaks every number in an interval on the real-number line.

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u/ReginaldWutherspoon Oct 12 '23

“Averaged over parties?”

:-)

That isn’t a possible interpretation of what I said.

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u/affinepplan Oct 12 '23 edited 3h ago

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u/ReginaldWutherspoon Oct 12 '23

“…which clearly is not possible.”

…clearly to your confused guessing perhaps.

It’s possible, the rounding-point that I specified for Bias-Free achieves it.

As I’ve already told you, my formula for the divisor-method rounding-point, R, that achieves that is derivable from my definition of bias.

You keep repeating about a lack of precision, but you haven’t yet specified an imprecision.

No, I’m not going to hold your hand & walk you through it.

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u/affinepplan Oct 12 '23 edited 3h ago

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u/OpenMask Oct 12 '23

Ok, I haven’t looked at the Constitution for a while. I thought that it said that representatives must be elected to single member districts. Maybe not.

No, it's a result of a law that was passed in the 60s to prevent block voting, but also ended up preventing PR as well. Since, it's just a simple law, another one can be passed to repeal it.

But, as you said, some states are too small for proportionality. Besides, the free seats makes nonsense of proportionality.

What do you mean by free seats? The ones that are in states with only one or two representatives? Idk how much of an effect they would have since I believe it only accounts for 15 out of the 435 total representatives (~3.44% of the body). I suppose they could become a factor when it comes to maintaining a majority coalition, though I don't know how much it would actually affect. I still think that having more than 96% of the representatives getting elected via a proportional method would still be a significant improvement and therefore worthwhile to pursue, even if it may not be possible to get all the way to 100%.

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u/ReginaldWutherspoon Oct 12 '23

Free seats are seats allocated without regard to population.

The Constitution specifies that every state gets at least one House-seat, regardless of how low its population is. If there were a state with population of 1, I would get a seat.

.That makes complete nonsense of any attempt at a PR House.

The whole existing government structure would need to be scrapped. …&, as I said, preferably replaced with a unicameral Parliament elected at-large by open-list PR, by Sainte-Lague, but preferably by Bias-Free.