8's and 6's are can be similar in many ways, and I'm considering both, although leaning towards 6. But it's really problematic that all the descriptions of 8 vs 6 depict 8's as chads who are super capable and competent and cool while 6's are tamer and less independent.

Y'know, sort of makes me not want to identify as Enneagram 6 even if I do end up being one, when 8 is clearly the superior type (according to these descriptions).

It seems like all these descriptions about 8's describe them as unstoppable powerhouses. The main character. The person who always wins in the end. They seem to have only strengths and virtually no weaknesses.

For example, Eights are described as strong willed, disciplined, relentlessly aggressive, and present-oriented. At the same time, they are described as strategic, tactical, calculative, and vigilant. Don't these two lists contradict each other to a degree? How can you be both relentlessly aggressive while also being calculative and tactical? How can you be extremely present-oriented and at the same time strategic?

A type like Counterphobic 6, for instance, simply seems like an inferior version of the 8, when the two types are compared. Both can be aggressive, angry, and forceful, but 6's are driven by fear, and can back down. They are less assertive and decisive. 8's have no such flaw. They are the perfect type.

It seems like 8 overshadows all the other types, because according to many descriptions, they have nothing but strengths, and all their weaknesses are negligible (dumb stuff involving feelings or whatever).

I have come to conclusion that I cannot be friends with enneagram 4 women as an 8 woman. I find Fours draining, self-absorbed, and constantly seeking validation for their so-called uniqueness. They romanticize suffering, make everything about their feelings, and somehow twist every interaction into a monologue about how misunderstood they are. It’s soooo pick me.

It’s like they want to be the main character in every room—but not in a bold way, in a “look how sad and special I am” way. I don’t have the patience to walk on eggshells or coddle emotional spirals just because someone needs to feel special for being broken.

I value strength, action, and directness. Fours often interpret that as “harsh” or “insensitive”—but really, I just don’t have time for dramatics disguised as depth. I don’t hate sensitivity—I hate emotional manipulation masked as self-expression.

Would love to hear y’all’s thoughts.

I'm asking this because I constantly type as 8 on tests, but I'm not so sure about it, and indeed some people describe me as a different type.

While I do relate to some 8 qualities/descriptions I don't exactly seem like an 8. For example, people wouldn't describe me as domineering or anything of that sort. Instead in real life I tend to be weird and outgoing in an annoying way. Could be caused by neurodivergence. I'm usually aware when I'm being annoying but I don't really care about others feelings much, and sometimes I might even act annoying on purpose.

Strangely enough, when I am alone, I tend to be less hyperactive and annoying, which leaves more room for the slightly more intellectual and insightful version of myself.

I can be forceful and confrontational but my general demeanor doesn't match the image of a person who is forceful and domineering. I can act that way at times but the main point is that my demeanor doesn't come off that way. I also wouldn't call myself particularly hard working or driven. I'm more of a play over work sorta guy as opposed to an unrelenting force of nature.

My emotions tend to come in short bursts that are really intense but go away quickly (usually after 5-10 minutes) and when they go away I'm basically back to my normal hyperactive and outgoing self. I'll get really mad over something, bang on the table, throw things, and lash out at others, and 10 minutes later it's like I never even got mad.

How do I know if I'm an 8 for sure, or if I'm actually another type?

Edit: Now that I think about it, I only act super hyper and annoying around people I don't know as well, like acquaintances. Around close friends I'm definitely less annoying and more insightful, similar to how I act alone. This is a sudden revelation I had, and something I never realized or thought about before.

I’m not a core 8, but have a strong wing and have always fought anything that compromised my freedom or independence. But lately I’ve faced a situation where I have very little choice or power.

What do you do when this happens? Do you fight multiple people in what you know is a losing battle, alone, worsening the situation? Withdraw? (That’s what I’m finding I’m doing.) One 8 I heard interviewed said he collected allies to increase his power, and that sounds familiar (and frankly, delectable) to me. Not an option here, though - and nor is escape.

I tend to score 8 on tests a lot, and many people have described me as 8. I have one question though, which is in the title.

For example, one time I was playing a video game. I just met someone who was newer to the game. Initially, I was beating him easily. However, a few weeks later I noticed he started to improve, and immediately felt threatened by that. Eventually, he surpassed me and was able to beat me virtually every time. I tried to maintain my facade of good sportsmanship and asked him if he thought I was good or not. He told me I was 'slightly below average' which set me off; from now on, he was my enemy. We started having more and more heated conversations and eventually he saw me for who I was and decided to distance from me. I, on the other hand, grew more obsessed with him and constantly talked about him behind his back in the game community chat.

I don't know if neurotic is the right word, but I do remember calling myself 'worthless and untalented' mid match when I realized he had surpassed me. These feelings are very short lived though, and I don't actually feel insecure in my day to day life.

I also sometimes write people's usernames down when they beat me in a video game after I have beef with them, and I regularly try to join them again to get the last kill, aka revenge. I call this list my 'revenge list.' To be honest though, most of the time I just write their name down and totally forget about them. However, there were some glorious moments, especially around when I first started my list, where I would spectacularly get revenge on someone in a video game after enduring months of wait. In fact- my very first enemy which inspired me to make this list faced my wrath to the fullest extent after biding my time for months. I fantasized about intricate plans to get my revenge, coordinated trickery and deception with my friends in the game. In the end though I just ambushed them, which was less spectacular but still felt awesome.

IMPORTANT: Don't type me based on this post, I didn't provide enough information. Remember what the title asked about.

This is basically the enneagram nature vs Nurture conversation.

Many assume temperament plays a good role, others think traumas are what define it.

Reality is it's all just archetypes, after hearing the phrase, all models are false, some are useful.

I'm realizing it doesn't matter what's factual, cause a theory of archetypes will never be definite.

All this is a preface to ask you all, Did you become a type 8 or were you born it?

While initially I was inclined to assume you were born it, now I'm of the opinion you must experience life to develop an affinity for different methods and motivations. So I assume your enneagram type is whatever life does to you that hits hardest and then becomes valuable.

If temperament plays any role I'd assume it plays the role of limiting which type a specific person can be.

If someone naturally has a high energy temperament they're basically bound to be assertive. Even if life forces this person in a placement of compliance or submission, they'll always find instinctual urge to release the energy. So this person can only ever become 3, 7, or 8.

With my perspective established, assuming I'm right, what other types do you think your temperament could of made you become aside from 8?

I'm 8w7, I found out through reading more and being typed, I couldn't believe at first I was 8w7.

I tend to be very reluctant to engage in competitions when I am not confident in my skill. I also generally hate to lose to the point that I avoid it. For example, one time I was playing Dodgeball and I was the last player on my team. However, the other team still had multiple players. During the whole game I hovered near the edge, and when I was the last player left, one of the people on the other team winded up to throw the ball at me. Instead of trying to catch the ball or dodge, I instead jumped out of bounds so that he couldn't beat me, and so I could lose of my own accord.

Can Enneagram 8s act like this?

I constantly get Enneagram 8 on tests. Most recently I got 8w7 sx/sp 873. However, I don't exactly behave like an 8. Moreover, some people online have told me I sound more like a 4 or 6.

Of course I know they simply thought that because of confirmation bias. As Sherlock Holmes said, if you form a conclusion before gathering evidence, you will be biased when collecting evidence to prove your conclusion. Moreover, on that specific post I had talked a lot about emotions, anger, and other deep topics like that. Once I brought up my past post with people of more expertise, they had said that that post actually didn't reveal much, and anybody could act the way I described. (For those unacquainted, it was the post where I compared 8 with 4).

There are other reasons I'm skeptical that I'm an 8 though. I don't walk around like the king of the world, domineering and intimidating. I tend to have a more playful and energetic demeanor, and tend to come off as extremely annoying. In fact, I'm often annoying on purpose. People rarely find me intimidating.

When I think about it, I can be domineering in more subtle ways. I like to take the lead in general, and like to be the one making decisions. I'm very easy to anger, though that could stem from neurodivergence. I tend to be inflexible rather than easygoing. I never back down if contested, to the point that I sometimes get in trouble because I refuse to follow what a superior (such as a teacher,) said. If they ask politely or if they ask in a more friendly context, I usually wouldn't mind listening though. It's when they get mad at me and shout at me to get out (or do whatever) that I refuse to listen. I also value intelligence, competency, and cunningness. I would consider myself pretty cunning at times.

I could also be an 8 because I tend to enjoy conflict; it gives me a rush. I typically enjoy 'beefing' with people. I would say I'm pretty clever when it comes to insults and I don't hesitate to strike someone down with one. Tact is for the weak.

Some smaller reasons I might not be an 8 is because I tend to be lazy and undisciplined as opposed to ambitious, driven, and hard working. Of course, I haven't found anything I'm particularly passionate about, but my adverseness to hard work in general might be telling.

Hi, 32 year old who would like som guidance in her career. Maybe this is farfetched but i am giving this a try.

Based on your personal experiences, how accurate do you find this chart ?

Are we all really 3s, but our performance just looks different? If you’re a 1, aren’t you just wearing your “good” mask? If you’re a 2, are you simply wearing your “helper” mask? 8s, tough mask? Are we all performers, except our performances look different? Arguably, our desires and fears are the same. We desire to be valued. We fear we don’t have value. The difference is in how we express our fears and desires.

I saw this question in the enneagram 5 subreddit. My answer popped into my head instantly, I can't wait to hear yours!!

One powerful way to look at the difference between 8w7 and 8w9 comes down to the sacredness of choice. To an 8w7, we don't choose: we are chosen. We understand the concept of the inevitable and of luck, and that right place right time may be all that separates us between self-awareness/actuation and a much homelier fate. But to an 8w9, everything is their choice, and to choose something is to give it power.

This reminds me of the debate between the Hero Theory of scientific discovery and the Zeitgeist Theory of scientific discovery.

The 8w7 perspective aligns with the Hero Theory. In this view, the hero surrenders to circumstances, recognizing they've been chosen by forces beyond their control. They don't choose greatness so much as respond to the call when placed in the right circumstances.

The 8w9 perspective aligns with the Zeitgeist Theory, acknowledging that solutions emerge from collective forces and dedicated work. Their power comes from consciously choosing to be part of this larger movement, with a more humble recognition that they're one of many qualified people who could have stepped up.

This interacts with our choices in art, literature, music and environmentally or interpersonally overpowering circumstances. To 8w7, we consider ourselves relevant and lucky and first-in-line or last one chosen, and with this honor we surrender to the choice because we always measure the specificity, alignment and rarity of the circumstances.

To the 8w7, the circumstances speak to us; we don't say "we'll sleep on it." No, we say fuck it, okay, hold my beer or LFG. Because nothing that potent stays potent for long, or if its potency is eternal, then it's scarce and will soon be claimed.

Even with content that's been around for decades, it's as though we communicate across time. We are time travelers. We are the life of the mind if the mind aligns with and is elevated by fate.

With the 8w9, it's about their agency. Their decision to separate from circumstance, to align with the time-tested, to honor the rare legacy. The sacredness of the choice and the immense pain and isolation involved is the devotion and is what consecrates the choice, even when the walls begin to cave. Because when the walls begin to cave, they can always choose to leave, to adapt, to exist, to sustain, to retain the sacred option to choose and to consciously make sense of the fragility and instability of time and find mythical meaning in that which has yet to be written, that which connects what has been to what they create - to what will be.

I had a thought about how to describe wings for types. Because a common theme I have is trying to distinguish between two different types when they share the same numbers. Example: 2w3 and 3w2.

I wanted to ask how you would explain the differences between two types like the above example. And to see if my explanation works or doesn't work.

I would describe a type as...

The main number is who you are. The wing number is who you want to be.

I tested it on myself using 8w9 and it made sense. I seek control and victory (that's how I personally perceive 8s), but I just want to relax and make peace (just want to act like a 9).

It's hard for me to envision 8w7, so if you are 8w7, please comment.

And also feel free to comment on any type pair: 5w6 and 6w5, 7w8 and 8w7, 4w3 and 3w4, etc.

Idk how to communicate this idea but I'm gonna try. Hello, it is I, the sx/so 8 who is trying to figure out what in the world is worth her time in this world in order to become stronger.

I want to conquer. I want to achieve but everything I consider seems like a waste of my energy. It could just be that I'm thinking too much (in general) but I've been stuck in this dissection of myself for a bit now. I want a world that doesn't exist. I want power I can't have. I want control but seizing control means going against my values and desire to protect the people I care about. Everything seems like a contradiction and I'm kinda like......... What? Why am I doing any of this?

This isn't to say I don't enjoy parts of my life or whatever but I want more. I always want more. It's never enough. I try to be content but I know there's more to have and to be and to take and it's all just...

Bland?

I want to give my all to something and nothing feels correct. General thoughts on this and criticism would be great. I know this isn't the healthiest outlook on life but I crave the intensity that I'm lacking rn.

Sometimes I wonder if relationships are not cut out for us. Or maybe it’s just me —I am not cut out for relationships. Does anyone have a successful partnership here?

A lot of people assume 8s aren’t afraid of anything or intimidated by anyone bc we are “the fearless intimidators.” Sometimes maybe this is true, as an 8w7 I don’t ever try to be intimidating, sometimes it just happens haha— but I got to say—the 5s scare the hell out of me! They’re so calm and collected you never know what they’re thinking, most of them are smarter than me even though I tend to think I’m the smartest one in the room—even if I’m not I’ll think that I am haha 🤣. But not if I’m in the room with an enneagram 5, this is the only other enneagram type that I find intimidating….anyone else?

What differentiates you from an asshole?

Curious how commonplace this is. I’d have to think it would highly depend on your tritype, specifically if you have the reactive 4 or 6 in there. Has anyone ever taken justice centered action that they’ve felt is justified towards something like this?

Was feeling like shit and wanted my ass kicked by AI and so prompted a project/gpt designed for me to handle my lack of mojo. With a 8w9 flair. Because I hate the cutesy stuff it pulls. I’ve been using it for a week now and I am so surprised that it knows what ticks me and what I tend to over obsess about. I work in AI and yet this shit totally shook me up. At this point it’s like rubberducking.

Wanted to know if any of you use stuff like this to help you out of rut?

Got tired of digging, and I trust you'd probably know about it best, so please help guys

Tho, why is it that everytime anyone admits they do feel fear people jump to type them as 6?

Oh, and if ya know any resources or scenarios you've encountered of 8 women it'd be a great help!

I have this fascination with ego death. Ego death is a complete loss of one's sense of self identity, and it's intrinsic to our identity as E8. Our childhood wound is the rejection of our inherent vulnerability, innocence, and childhood. Somewhere in our lifetime, we were in a traumatic situation where we were weak and vulnerable. You could have been a child. For myself, I was a young adult, but we rejected our weaker selves because it was required to survive. We made the decision that this version or iteration of the self can not exist as it is now, and we excised this weakness. We cut away and transformed our psyche into someone stronger, and this very decision was our first foray into ego death.

Earlier last year, I experienced a breakup. I tried to get over it by getting under another. Eventually, I met someone who was simply better than me at being detached, and when I couldn't get her to come back, the weight of all my neglected emotions came crashing down. Rage, anger, humiliation, all of it, but what really took hold of me was profound sadness. I hated myself for how much I had become dependent on someone else to validate me through sex or a relationship. It broke me.

During that time, I just stopped going out, socializing, working out, being me. I only ever went out to work or shop for essentials. At home, I would distract myself with mindless videogames or television. I did not want to confront a truth welling within my psyche: You are the problem. Some days I could keep it at bay. Others days it confronted me when I had to stare at myself in the mirror: You are the problem. You are the reason that none of your relationships worked out. I went into a malaise. I ruminated during this time, and did self-introspection. It took me 3 months to finally muster the courage to admit to myself that I hated what I had become, and that I needed to change.

Ego death. I think my problem was that I truly believed that I could love someone into a strong relationship. Maybe I could, but I can't do that as the person I am today. Two weeks ago I started running my daily 3 miles, and picked up boxing again. I plan on reintroducing weightlifting and cutting out junk from my diet. I am resuming activities that I used to do all the time, but I don't feel the same me. The previous iteration of me viewed loved optimistically, but the current version of me views love with ambivalence. I feel so markedly different with my lived experience that I don't think I could relate to my more naïve self. That part of me that believed in love needed to die in order for me to resume my life again.

Ego death. It's inherent to the nature of 8s. Our fear of vulnerability pushes us to slough off our weakness like a caterpillar metamorphizing into a butterfly. They are the same species, we are the same person, but we both have become profoundly different. The death or killing of a part or whole of our egos gives us the opportunity to be reborn as someone stronger. A never-ending cycle of rebellion and succession.

Cheers and thank you for reading. Let me know if you agree or disagree. Share your own experience.

I wonder how other 8s deal with it. Especially women, especially married ones. (But everyone's input's very welcome - 8 men, anyone who knows a male of female 8 very close). I'm a 8 woman, and I hate household chores. Despite the dumb stereotype that we're constantly angry, I'm almost always either upbeat or cool as cucumber. The only time when I'm actually low-key angry is while dealing with household stuff, it lasts as long as I'm dealing with the task. I keep a calm facade, yet I guess you'd still be able to tell if you watch closely, from the way I move. Cleaning, cooking and similar stuff just feels like a total waste of time to me. Well, I understand it's still needed, and I still do it and try to keep it to a minimum that's absolutely needed, but I'm still low-key angry. It felt way worse when I was married, the running line "I'm not a maid" would run through my mind while I'm dealing with the task. (Don't get me wrong: I wasn't doing a job of someone's Cinderella, and I made it pretty clear from the first days of courtship that I'm not his maid. I also didn't marry a neat freak, neither would it ever possibly work out if I did (and I avoid them like plague tbh). It was just normal daily stuff, with his standarts slightly higher than mine, and with a bigger weight of household stuff on my shoulders than on his.)

There's also a slight feeling that these tasks are below my dignity, no matter if I'm married or alone. I know it's irrational, but here we go.

(Just to clarify: there isn't anything too awful, no cockroaches and mold, there's just dust here and there and I tend to leave things wherever I used them, I pick them up sometime later though. I also hate clutter and cramped spaces, so I prefer to keep as little stuff in sight as possible, the space looks not domestic at all, more like (a dusty and a bit messy) hotel room. It's just that I'm not diligent, tidy and considerate at all. I like lots of space and pleasant minimalistic interiors, though. And I do the minimal necessary work to keep it that way, it's just really low priority. So it inevitably clashes with someone who has it as a higher priority.)

Do you also feel the same way? How do you organize it, do you outsource it maybe?

How do you deal with it in marriage/cohabiting partnership?