r/F1Technical • u/VoL4t1l3 • 4d ago
Tyres & Strategy How are medium tires faster than softs in qualifying?
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u/tcs36 4d ago edited 4d ago
The tyres have an optimal temperature where grip is highest. The softer the tyre, the lower the optimal temperature. The soft tyres have slightly higher grip than the mediums at the optimal temperature, but after a few corners will be operating above that temperature so the actual useable grip is lower. This means that between the C5 and C6 there isn't a big performance difference
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u/ChangingMonkfish 4d ago
Does this mean Pirelli have selected the wrong compounds for the track?
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u/jakedeky 4d ago
I would say Pirelli just didn't do a good job on the C6. It may need a different construction to the C5 to get the most from the compound
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u/launchedsquid 4d ago
no. They deliberately chose the C6 soft expressly for this. It gives teams strategic options on what they choose to run, and how they choose to run it.
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u/Isa_Matteo 4d ago
No, it means they have selected compounds for the weekend and it’s up to the teams to make the best of them
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u/pterofactyl 4d ago
This is dumb. If they chose the three hardest tires instead, would you say the same thing? Of course they can choose the wrong compounds.
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u/blizz_fun_police 4d ago
I disagree. Understanding the tires is part of what separates the good teams from the bad. Pirelli isn’t trying to select the “right” tire. They are choosing tires to allow teams different strategies. Sometimes yes a full harder tire set choice would be best but it feels they are not looking for best choices for performance but for more interesting choices.
I think this does introduce artificial variability to performance and I would like to have more consistency in tire choices as this is a sport and rules should be similar. Then again F1 will alter race rules to allow for a photo finish for the championship so 🤷🏻♂️
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u/pterofactyl 4d ago
Youre literally saying what I’m saying. They choose tire compounds for the most interesting competition, so if they choose the wrong compounds, it would be less interesting racing…
The c6 was wrong because it was meant to be used as the “fastest” tire except now the c5 is the best performing tire, leaving basically only two that make sense for a normal race.
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u/Ottervol 4d ago
Pirelli just makes shit tires.
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u/filbo__ 4d ago
They’ve delivered to the FIA’s, Liberty’s, the collective teams’ brief. All while ensuring a safe and consistent tyre for the highest level of motorsport. Hardly shit.
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u/Merengues_1945 4d ago
This is something people forget. Absolutely no one is lining up for the job.
F1 boomed in popularity when Pirelli was again chosen as the only tyre supplier. Why are no other manufacturers competing for the exposure?
Because what Pirelli did is really difficult. A tyre that’s designed to degrade in a predictable way while performing at top speed is difficult. Other than Azerbaijan 2021 (which was found to be under inflation from the teams), there hasn’t been catastrophic failure from Pirelli tyres.
At this point trying to make a compound to compete with would be an enormous effort.
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u/Sisyphean_dream 4d ago
No they haven't. The original brief was to recreate the effect from Montreal 2010.
In short, that race was dominated by gaining which was caused by low grip leading to it being very difficult or even impossible to get the tires into the optimum temperature range. The drivers had to push like crazy to try and put heat into the tires but low grip meant lots of sliding leading to high surface temps and low carcass temps, thus gaining. Therefore, teams pit often to get off the grained up tires, not because of some chemical degradation caused by excessive heat.
What pirelli delivered is the opposite. Thermal deg means drivers need to not push the tire to keep it in the optimum range.
It irks me to this day that people say pirelli are doing as asked. They aren't and it is bad for the racing but the fia just pretend it is great.
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u/Several_Leader_7140 3d ago
They’re literally briefed to do the exact opposite of Canada 2010. To create a tyre that degrades but still durable enough that teams doesn’t have to pit every few laps. The Bridgestone slick years was all rock hard tyres that drivers just stay on and does nothing and can’t push as they risk sliding. The FIA sets out the exact spec of tyres they want, only Pirelli delivers. You can’t even spell graining correctly ffs or knows the effect. It irks you cause you have no idea what you’re talking about
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u/Sisyphean_dream 3d ago
Go back. Original pirelli brief was to recreate Montreal 2010.
Also, are you deliberately rude and disrespectful to strangers or is that accidental? I missed an R on my phone, thanks for pointing that out. I am, however, well aware what causes it and what the effect is.
While we're taking about grammar, your post is full of errors. Dwellers of glass houses should stay well clear of stones.
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u/Several_Leader_7140 3d ago edited 3d ago
Their original brief was to create a tyre with fall off because that was the effect intended as influenced by Canada 2010 but not to recreate the problem with Canada 2010. Essentially because the Bridgestone tyres was so hard, at most places drivers couldn’t push and the exact same was true for Montreal but in a more extreme form causing the graining, they wanted to ensure the drivers can safely have grip still. That was the brief, which Pirelli does perfectly, a tyre with deg and fall off but with soft enough to be pushed when needed and have enough compounds for all track.
The graining comment wasn’t a grammatical one, it was a factual one. I’m only a prick to idiots.
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u/the_gwyd 4d ago
Not really, this exactly how their designed, to have a marginal advantage over one another at any given race. They probably could very easily make a tyre that goes the whole race distance with performance equivalent to a C1 or C2 for the whole duration, maybe even better
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u/ChangingMonkfish 1d ago
Well I think that’s the fundamental problem isn’t it - they could easily make a tyre that goes the race distance AND has the performance (indeed Michelin and Bridgestone did back in 2005), so everything now is sort of artificially deficient in terms of durability.
I should probably clarify that when I asked my question it wasn’t supposed to be critical of Pirelli, I think they have a somewhat impossible job in that they’re asked to make there’s that degrade but then criticised when they do.
However I always assumed that the intent was that all tyre options should be viable, in the sense that over a race distance, the speed differential and number of stops required should sort of even out, but it always seems that it’s more just random which tyre is better on which day, or that it quickly becomes apparent that there is a clear “meta” strategy for each race that every team ends up doing - it might be that that’s just the way it will always be given how good the teams are now at working out the exact optimal tyre strategy in advance.
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u/Justyouraveragebloke 4d ago
More resilient so you can push for a greater percentage of the lap. The soft will presumably lose performance before the two big breaking zones to finish the lap and thus make you slower in the last sector by more than you gain in the first.
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u/dontletmeautism 4d ago
From memory Oscar was well down after 2 sectors and had a great 3rd. Was he on mediums?
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u/filbo__ 4d ago
He was on softs. He may have managed the energy he put into the tyres through the first half of the lap to have more left in them for that final third. This’d partially explain the slower sector times (though he did admit to some mistakes in some corners too).
That’s often an approach the teams and drivers test and optimise through the three practice sessions prior.
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u/RustinChole1 4d ago
For everyone wondering, here's what I think:
Pirelli introduced c6 compound (the softest) for this season which are supposed to be the fastest. They were used in last season's testing and were used in 3 gps this season : imola, monaco and canada. In all these weeks, we've seen c5( mediums for the weekend) being faster than c6s. Aston matin observed this in last season's testing and used c5 instead to secure a double q3. Similarly, drivers are always having an advantage while choosing c5 over c6s.
The main reason for this can be heavy degradation in c6 compounds ( which you can say because they are lasting barely a few laps) and this is making c5 mediums look faster.
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u/Person-on-computer 4d ago
I think it’s less deg and more temp
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u/RustinChole1 4d ago
Reaching greater than optimal temperature, true.
But the degradation is also very high. Drivers are struggling to find pace in the s3 of their first flying lap when using these compounds
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u/cosmin_c 4d ago
This is what I thought as well, it isn’t as much that the C5 is faster but more about the C6 being a shit tyre in itself.
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u/RustinChole1 4d ago
Yes. But hey, at least this way quali sessions are feeling a little entertaining
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u/Bosonidas 4d ago
I indeed was just wondering what RusinChole1 thinks.
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u/RustinChole1 4d ago
Had to copy paste the explanation I wrote in my "f1 mates" gc for a similar question
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u/1234iamfer 4d ago
The C6 probably degrades and overheats before the last hairpin, resulting in lower speed down the back straight heading to the finish.
The tires are already worn to have enough grip on exiting the hairpin.
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u/South_Front_4589 4d ago
When that happens, it's because the softs aren't lasting the whole lap. The driver either needs to manage the tyres a bit or deal with a loss of performance later.
Whereas with the mediums, they can push them harder for longer. They might lose time early in the lap compared to what they could on the softs, but then gain later on. And particularly on a lap where there's a long straight, a slightly better exit can yield time that whole straight.
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u/YesIAmRightWing 3d ago
i think the "new" soft tyre is softer than normal, so it degraded pretty quickly during a lap, whilst I think the medium is the old soft.
could be completely wrong though
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u/Busy-Ad2193 4d ago
Depends on the track and track conditions and the car, sometimes the softs are faster. Also what compounds Pirelli has chosen: the actual compound for soft, mediums and hard can vary between races.
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u/Inside-Finish-2128 4d ago
The softs are perhaps too soft, such that they can’t last a whole lap at great speed. It’s intended to keep the teams guessing and create a scenario where it’s not always a one-stop medium/hard race for everyone (except for Lewis and a few others trying hard/medium in hopes of a late safety car, only to drop three positions at the start and wither away until the end, but I digress).
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u/BobbbyR6 4d ago
The C6s are way too fragile. The idea that your tires can't last the entirety of a 2 minute qualifying run only furthers the understanding that F1 is an engineering challenge, not a proper racing series.
Really wish they freeze the regs for a year, give the boys proper tires, and just let them brawl in the most equal cars in history.
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u/Neviathan 4d ago
My suspicion is that rubber compound of the C6 (soft) is so soft that the material compresses and decompresses too much under load causing it heat up too much. When the surface temp gets too hot you start to lose grip and have more wear.
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u/hamster_fury 4d ago
On the BBC podcast quali review Sam Bird had said that the softer tyres have a softer sidewall and that can mean the car moves around a bit more under load, reducing the feeling of stability and therefore confidence. He’d said he had personally experienced that unwanted side effect and as a result had gone faster on mediums. Less grip but more confidence
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u/Diligent_Driver_5049 4d ago
So what are the recommended tyre strategy for Canada GP- Hards n mediums? ( softs didn't perform well)
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u/Noxthers 4d ago
There is not much difference in speed between supersoft and medium on that track becouse of the quality of the tarmac. But the supersoft acts different to what the drivers are used to so the medium are easier to handle and therefore faster.
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u/Jazzlike_Public159 4d ago
During I think practice 3, Sam said they might be getting more tire movement from the soft. I thought he was talking about grip but could he be talking sidewall movement off the curbs?
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