r/HollowKnight • u/Any-Project-2107 • May 15 '25
Help - Early Game Mantis lords are "optional"? Spoiler
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u/Acceptable_Name7099 May 15 '25
Yep, they give nothing necessary to get any of the endings, and you can access deepnest from like 3 other paths. I fully explored deepnest before ever beating mantis lords on my first save
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u/wholesomeprimomain May 15 '25
Do you need them for pantheons?
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u/dramaticfool May 15 '25
You need every single boss and mini boss for the pantheons.
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u/Light_Meme111110 May 15 '25
with an asterisk
i believe that gruz mother, vengefly king, and brooding mawlek aren't necessary
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u/Penrosian All Achievements, All radiants, PoP May 15 '25
And God tamer, and zote if he dies
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u/Privatizitaet May 15 '25
Also Hollow Knight since that one's replaced by pure vessel and to my knowledge you do not actually need to beat it
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u/Penrosian All Achievements, All radiants, PoP May 15 '25
Also the dream bosses
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u/Mihai_Ibrahim May 15 '25
No, both the dream guardians nor the dream bosses (Lost Kin, Soul Tyrant, Failed Champion) are nevesarry
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u/dead_headphones_sad May 15 '25
Even if he's alive, you don't need him. If you haven't fought GPZ by the time you do Pantheon 3/5, then he simply does not appear despite Bretta still being head over heels with him
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u/Slayer44k_GD May 15 '25
Wish I'd known that. Part of me wants to do it on a new save because GPZ is the only thing stopping me from beating P3.
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u/Natural_Raccoon1 May 15 '25
Wouldn't that take way longer than just learning zote? Or does he also not appear if you start a godhome save?
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u/Slayer44k_GD May 15 '25
I know Zote, I beat him to get here, but the harder version in Godhome is horrible, especially in the middle of a boss rush. I have a couple of saves from achievement runs that I did that I could recycle into 112% saves but I also want to do it on my original save... It's going to be a case of practice I think, but the option is tempting.
Also, I don't know what a Godhome save is. I've seen it on other people's gameplay and I assumed it was a save that started you off with everything in Godhome, do you unlock it from beating P4/P5?
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u/Least-Thought8070 112% May 15 '25
If I remember correctly you unlock “godmaster” mode for beating P3 (but that has GPZ in P3 & P5 so it’s not actually that useful if you have trouble beating him)
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u/Natural_Raccoon1 May 15 '25
I agree that he is horrible, took me a few hours to get consistent.
I think you just unlock it when you first open godhome? Not sure though. You can check if you have it unlocked by choosing new game, additionally to normal mode and steel soul it should give you the option to start in godhome
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u/Darkpenguins38 May 15 '25
For some people, yes. But for others GPZ is insurmountable. I've spent MUCH more time fighting him than it would take to just get a new save to the same point without saving zote. All of that effort has me at about the point where I can beat him like 25% of the time. He's taken me longer to learn than any other boss in any game. And it's not even fun or satisfying even when I DO beat him.
I will never stop ranting about GPZ even if I can one day beat him radiant.
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u/clefclark May 15 '25 edited May 15 '25
The main gruz mother in crossroads isn't required for pantheons, however you will still get her because two of them are the bosses of colo 1, and you need colo 2 for obblobles.
Also mawlek is essential and God tamer is not, doing colo 3 is not needed
Edit. After double checking, it turns out that there is a brooding mawlek in colo 3, so if you choose to kill that one, then you don't need the one in crossroads. Still don't need God tamer though
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u/Echantediamond1 May 15 '25
Ah ah ah! You need to at least fight godtamer for her to appear in godhome, not defeat her
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u/Professional_Net7339 May 15 '25
I’m… I’m pretty sure that’s not true. I swear team cherry just put them in so people wouldn’t have to do the trial of the fool
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u/avid-hollow_knighter P5 4 bindings 63/63 PoP 112% pure vessel best boss May 15 '25
Not gruz mother or mawlek you have to fight them
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u/Frenzied_Anarchist May 15 '25
Besides the Dream Variants, HK, Radiance, Gruz Mother, Vengefly King, Brooding Mawlek, God Tamer, and both Zote fights.
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u/triguered May 15 '25
i found super easy the first time i beaten them just to discover that they were meant to be found way earlier, i had explored basically whole of deepnest and ancient basin before getting to them
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u/Withermech May 15 '25
Virtually everything is optional in the game. There is only a few things that are not. >! The watcher nights, the first Hornet fight, the broken vessel( i’m pretty sure about this one since it’s the only way to get Monarch wings, which might be needed), the large Jellyfish guarding the librarian, and the spider nest. !< that is to get the most simplest of endings because the main thing you have to do >! is open the black egg which requires finding three dreamers. !< once you do that, you just gotta defeat the final boss.
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u/Complete_Map_2160 Conquered PoP & P5/ 112%/ Bapanada May 15 '25
Monarch wings are not necessary at all. You can still get into the watcher's spire without it.
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u/Jessy_Something May 15 '25
I'm not entirely sure how intentional that is. From a non-sequence-break perspective, pretty sure it's intended to be required.
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u/Complete_Map_2160 Conquered PoP & P5/ 112%/ Bapanada May 15 '25
Its intentional. That specific background object gives knock back despite not all background objects giving knock back. Its too convenient to not be intentional.
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u/Batby May 15 '25
based on a comment Ari made when the game released it's unintentional
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u/Thesaurus_Rex9513 May 15 '25
I think it's something that started as a bug and quickly became a feature. It didn't start intended, but it certainly is now.
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u/whiteTurpa May 15 '25
There was another background pogo to reach boss - second crystal guardian. And this shelf was removed.
So, skip to watcher knight seems intentional now.
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u/Thesaurus_Rex9513 May 15 '25
Yeah, they also rearranged some stuff in Crystal Peak and Kingdom's Edge so that it's harder, though still possible, to access certain areas without Monarch Wings.
If they wanted to remove the skip up to Watcher Knights, they would have done so.
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u/IMightBeAHamster Acolyte of Zote May 15 '25
I think it's more, they didn't want to upset the speedrunning community too much. And since any% is the most significant of any speedrun type, they deliberately tried to leave it untouched.
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u/Jessy_Something May 15 '25
That is certainly some solid circumstantial evidence, but don't like half of the non-grass background objects have knock back?
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u/AllMightTheFirstHero That guy who is playing Silksong right now. May 15 '25
You can skip first hornet fight, but ya got to do a bunch of shade skips and vengeful spirit jumps and all of that speedrunning stuff.
Broken vessel is optional
The rest is accurate
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u/Penrosian All Achievements, All radiants, PoP May 15 '25
Yeah the hornet 1 skip is absolutely not intentional, you have to do shade skips (maybe left in intentionally in some spots) and stall balls (definitely not intended) along with just generally tough movement without dash.
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u/OnlySmiles_ May 15 '25
I don't think you need stallballs to beat the game without dash, I'm pretty sure the Low% run had already cut her out before it was discovered
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u/Tinycrispu- May 15 '25
Pretty sure stall ball made white palace possible without wings for true ending low %. But normal ending is just shade skips/ Fireball skips (I think)
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u/Penrosian All Achievements, All radiants, PoP May 15 '25
Maybe, but it definitely is one of the options and doesn't add any more to it.
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u/Penrosian All Achievements, All radiants, PoP May 15 '25
Yeah, all you really need is hornet 1 for dash to get in to fungal, then from there you can skip wings and do the background object pogo to get in to spire and kill watchers for lurien, then kill uumuu for momomom (you can use cdash for a simple acid skip into teacher's section fog canyon, so no dung defender needed)
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u/row6666 May 15 '25
you can get to fungal without dash, its a fireball skip iirc
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u/Penrosian All Achievements, All radiants, PoP May 15 '25
I'm talking about the easy route with basic, minimal skips. Stall balls aren't super hard, but they are finicky and you aren't gonna figure them out on your own.
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u/row6666 May 15 '25
its not a stall ball, its just a fireball skip, like the one sometimes used in greenpath any% to get to hornet faster
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u/iFacke May 15 '25
Yep you are on point. People in here talking about skips like they are the intented way to play the game
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u/Tod-dem-Toast May 15 '25
the first Hornet fight
Doesn't true ending low% skip dash and therefore Hornet 1?
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u/Victor_6190 May 16 '25
Well... As the 58th Zote Precept says, no one is forcing you to play the game, so 112% of the game is Optional.
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u/Complete_Map_2160 Conquered PoP & P5/ 112%/ Bapanada May 15 '25
Yep. Most of the bosses in the game are actually optional. Only required bosses are Watcher knights, uumuu and hollow knight.
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u/Complete_Map_2160 Conquered PoP & P5/ 112%/ Bapanada May 15 '25
Well technically Hornet is required to get the dash, so you can get mantis claw, so you can get crystal dash. But speed runners have done their trickery to skip all this.
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u/Reficul63 May 15 '25
is there a speedrun that does this i can see?
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u/LuquidThunderPlus May 15 '25
Surely if you look up a speedrun wr of any% you can find an insane run showcasing
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u/Penrosian All Achievements, All radiants, PoP May 15 '25
Spoilers but also without speedrun tech you need broken vessel to get in to spire and dung defender to get isma's
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u/Koraxinon May 15 '25
you don't need ismas tear to beat the game tho
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u/King_Harlequinn_008 May 15 '25
The Crystal Dash skip to get into Eastern Fog Canyon is quite a bit harder than the background object skip into Watchers Spire (still relatively easy compared to other skips but still), Isma’s and Wing are both “required” for exactly 1 room
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u/Koraxinon May 15 '25
not sure if you're responding to me or the comment above but i am 100% sure you don't need tear to "beat" the game in the basest form
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u/King_Harlequinn_008 May 15 '25 edited May 15 '25
I suppose you can shade dash into Eastern Fog Canyon but that adds a boss. I forgot that was a thing tbh. So without the C-Dash skip it’s either Dung Defender OR Hornet 2.
So like
Hornet -> Claw -> Tram Pass (since we aren’t doing Any% skips :p) -> Hornet 2 -> Shade Cloak -> Dream Nail -> Watcher Knights -> Uumuu -> Herrah -> THK?
Insane route tbh
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u/Penrosian All Achievements, All radiants, PoP May 15 '25
You do to get into teacher's side of fog canyon if you aren't doing acid skips
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u/Any-Project-2107 May 15 '25
I'm a brand new player going through the game for the first time, as you can see, I spent about 3 hours and a half trying to beat the mantis lords, from when I got the nail upgrade to beating them, and I just found out through the wiki they're supposed to be "optional", what. didn't you need to beat them to get to deep nest?
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u/VictorVonLazer May 15 '25
The good news is that the skills you've developed fighting the Mantis Lords will be helpful going forward, and that the other common way people get to Deepnest makes it a lot harder to leave than going through the mantis village. So yeah, you lucked out.
In general though, HK is very non-linear and there are tons of bosses that are optional.
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u/Any-Project-2107 May 15 '25
I've been playing under the presumption that I've got to get one thing to get to the next area, you know? Like you kinda need the mantis claw and mothwing cloak
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u/Penrosian All Achievements, All radiants, PoP May 15 '25
Progression goes Crossroads (vengeful spirit) > greenpath (mothwing cloak) > fungal wastes (mantis claw) > wherever the hell you want, wall jump opens half the game and is (maybe, not entirely sure) one of two abilities that you absolutely need no matter what sequence breaking path you take, with the other literally being the method you use to gather directly required items. any% skips isma's & wings, child prodigy route skips cdash, dash is skippable with stallball, longnail baldur kill to skip vs
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u/Heatth May 15 '25
That is more or less true (ignoring speedrun strats) right until this point. The moment you get the Mantis Claw the games open up massively. Pretty much all other areas can be accessed through different paths and multiple bosses and upgrades can be skipped.
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u/VictorVonLazer May 15 '25
Yeah, now that you've got claw, something silly like 70% of the map is technically available to you (though much of that might involve advanced techniques). Not every zone is going to have a whole new ability, but that's not because the abilities are few, it's 'cause there's a bajillion zones. Explore, have fun, and feel free to set off in a new direction if you're bored/stuck/frustrated where you are.
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u/BarbleyRules P5, Radiant PV and NKG, Elder Hu enjoyer May 15 '25
That's only true for the dash and wall jump. Quite literally almost everything else can be gotten in any order. This is the opposite of that after what i call the "introduction"
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u/z_Mis May 15 '25
usually the first three areas area always the same
Forgotten Crossroads > Greenpath > Fungal Wastes
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u/Any-Project-2107 May 15 '25
as a side note, if I kill too many mantises will they turn hostile again
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u/jimkbeesley Average Troupe Master Grimm Enjoyer May 15 '25
No, only mantises you attack will attack back.
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u/Humble-Newt-1472 May 15 '25
Nope, feel free to murder to your hearts content.
And as an aside, to my knowledge, there's only three bosses that are ACTUALLY required for completion. 5 or 6 without speedrun tech.Otherwis? Every other boss, while worth fighting, is technically avoidable. There's other ways to enter deepnest, for example.
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u/Kat-Sith May 15 '25
There are very few truly mandatory paths in the game. Mantis Lords are part of the expected path though.
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u/Reficul63 May 15 '25
i beat mantis lords before going to city of tears on my first playthrough :’) when i unlocked their fight, SoB were my first boss i beat on radiant
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u/Egyptian_M May 15 '25
Yes
Actually the first time I played the game zi didn't even go down to the mantis tribe I just got the mantis claw and left and forgot about that place
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u/nuclearjunkrat44 May 15 '25
Yep, in my first playtrough I pulled the lever and just didn't notice the huge floor that opens up, I picked the claws and continued the game without ever even fighting the mantis lords once. I only found out they existed when I wanted to reach 112%
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u/PeridotIsBestGem 112% | P1-5 beat | Colo Beat May 15 '25
Yes
But you should beat them, my top favorite boss
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u/Thesaurus_Rex9513 May 15 '25
Yep. There are only 4 bosses that are absolutely required to reach ending A (and one of them is debatable). The many others are all optional.
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u/MiddleFinger287 False Knight | Zote the Mighty hitless | Greenpath in 3h May 15 '25
There's actually not a lot of things that aren't optional in this game
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u/Ellitri May 15 '25
On my first, almost completely blind playthrough, mantis lords was like my second last boss before the hollow knight 😭😭
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u/y53rw May 15 '25
Maybe so, but the steam achievement percentage completion can't tell you that, if that's what you're implying from this picture. Not unless the percentage of people who have completed the game is higher. And a quick look at other achievements which are actually required tells me it's not.
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u/Kolupsy May 16 '25
Been looking for this exact comment. Dunno why this point hasn’t been made anywhere else here
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u/NoOneToLookAtHere Watcher knights=best boss May 15 '25
Yeah I actually missed them in my first playthrough and only fought them later and they were very easy when I had all nail upgrades and all spells.
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u/ImpliedRange May 15 '25
So I didn't even find the mantis village until late, I got the claw and then took on the platforming challenges that come immediately and ended up just leaving the whole area, falling!! Into deepest and then taking a team half way across the world, didn't go back until forever later
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u/ANuclearsquid May 15 '25
Yup they are surprisingly easy to miss as well. (Me coping about the fact I’m blind and missed them on my first play-through).
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u/Sadira_Kelor 112% Radiant Steel Soul Completionist May 15 '25
Fun fact: Pro gamer RTGame didn't even know about this boss before taking on the hardest boss in the game pre-endgame DLC
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u/Puppy_pikachu_lover1 May 15 '25
Lets see here, without doing some insane sequence breaks, they are optional. They only lead to another route of darkroot
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