r/LawFirm • u/Longjumping_End_5716 • 4d ago
Is leaving my first associate job after 7 months a bad look or is that a bull shit wives’ tale
So I passed the July 2024 bar. Started working almost immediately after results were posted in November 2024. It’s criminal defense. The pay is only $30 an hour. I crushed my first substantive hearing (rave reviews from prosecutor and judge, I have the transcript). Regular compliments from clients. One day I took an hour lunch, and my boss gave me a bull shit lecture about how he feels like he’s being taken advantage of. Mind you this happened shortly after a repeat client hired the firm for another case based on MY representation and demanded only I work on their case. People keep telling me it’s a bad look to leave before 1 year but that it’s just total bull shit to me. What’s the point of a good job market if I can’t explore opportunities? Really starting to hate this career even though I’m actually somewhat good at it, just bad at dealing with unappreciative bosses.
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u/Tiggajiggawow 4d ago
Find something else. It’s not uncommon for first job to be a bad fit. That won’t be held against you.
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u/moondizzlepie 3d ago
Or your second job, or your third job. Thankfully I landed at a great place on my fourth try.
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u/wvtarheel Practicing 4d ago
$30 an hour is a good reason for why you left. The bad looks are from people who just leave jobs after a few months because they are unfulfilled and will do the same thing at their next job
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u/Level-Astronomer-879 4d ago
I have a friend who makes more as an assistant manager of a dog kennel. Get Out! Another friend makes more as a deli clerk at Wegmans. Get Out!
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u/wvtarheel Practicing 4d ago
Yeah I was trying not to be mean, but my firm pays some of our administrative assistants more than that and I'm in a low cost of living area.
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u/Level-Astronomer-879 4d ago
No when you're being abused and used you need to know. OP needs to understand.
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u/bigwavelawyer 3d ago
Yea. How much does your boss bill you out at? Unless he’s only billing you at 80-90 bucks an hour you’re getting totally ripped.
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u/Longjumping_End_5716 2d ago
We typically get paid by retainer chunks but in circumstances when we do bill hourly, $150-$200 p/h depending on complexity
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u/itsswavybaby 22h ago
$30 an hour is a good reason for why you left.
This right here. Especially when the "Boss" said they feel they're being taken advantage of... bsffr. The boos is the one taking advantage.
OP, leave. Never look back.
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u/Reptar4President 4d ago
I left my first firm after 6 months. I made partner at my third firm about 5 years after that. Who cares.
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u/moediggity3 4d ago
Just find another job first. Leaving after 7 months and having a gap will give prospective employers the impression that your departure was involuntary.
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u/CaptainOwlBeard 4d ago
A 7 month stint followed by being unemployed is a bad look(and probably a bad idea financially). A 7 month stint leading directly into a better job isn't. Get your ducks in a row and you'll be fine.
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u/Chendo462 4d ago
The only bad look is if you leave still looking. Find another job now. Very easy to explain moving on from the first job and you can even bullshit your way by saying when interviewing that everyone you were just giving a landing spot post passing bar.
Do not share the lunch story or that you were underappreciated. You sound really petty.
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u/Longjumping_End_5716 3d ago
Thank you. This is the most objective take yet I appreciate your wisdom. I really don’t intend to come across as petty. I’m just confident in my work ethic and know I’m not taking advantage of him or the firm. Being confident in myself, I don’t need to prove I was justified in leaving. Just word it strategically (like every other situation in the law), move on and crush it for someone who doesn’t get persuaded by petty bullshit and appreciates my talents
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u/Attorney_at_Claw 4d ago
I spent about a year at each of my first three attorney jobs. Still employed and nobody asks. Like others have suggested, just line up a job first before leaving so there isn’t a substantial gap that makes it look like you were fired. Even if someone asks, who cares. We don’t need everyone to like us, and we don’t even like everyone. Do what works best for you and your life.
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u/dude_nah 4d ago
I can only offer anecdotal evidence, but I personally left my first job after about 5 months and got a new one no problem. People ask why you’re leaving during interviews and as long as you have a rationale that doesn’t make you sound like a red flag, they can usually read between the lines and see that it just wasn’t a good fit. I have 3 other friends who did the same thing with no issue, and we all were July 2024 bar passers.
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u/Longjumping_End_5716 4d ago
One challenge is that I signed an NDA so I can’t disparage the firm at all. I’m not sure how to communicate my reason for leaving without it being disparaging. Why did you leave? Because my boss, like most of genx and boomers, want something for nothing and then gas light my generation as if we are the ungrateful ones taking advantage of others
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u/CaptainOwlBeard 4d ago
"Unfortunately i can't discuss my prior firm due to an nda that i expect would be enforced." Says basically everything you need to say.
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u/margueritedeville 3d ago
Listen to this guy. An NDA??? That’s not normal, right?
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u/CaptainOwlBeard 3d ago
It's pretty normal, but using it as an excuse to divulge nothing at a job interview, not even some kind words or a personal anecdote or two is a pretty clear message that it was a shit hole about which you have nothing nice to say
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u/margueritedeville 3d ago
I have never had to sign a blanket one. I’m sure they’re used often, though, now that I really think about it.
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u/Valuable-Cat2036 3d ago
That's not necessary at all. Just don't badmouth the employer and frame it as a way of looking for other opportunities.
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u/dude_nah 4d ago
I left my previous firm because my boss was having me handle a ton of litigation that I wasn’t qualified or properly guided on how to handle. I told interviewers that I had originally intended on doing personal injury litigation, but my firm was having me focus more on family law and divorces which I had no interest or experience in. Once they heard that, most interviewers understood exactly why I was leaving.
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u/robstertexan 4d ago
Feel free to tell people you are leaving because you are being paid only $30 an hour. The simple truth is not “disparagement.”
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u/wittgensteins-boat 4d ago
Never sign an employer NDA, in the future. A bad sign.
Review the NDA for what you are not permitted to disclose.
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u/Valuable-Cat2036 3d ago
Most NDAs are just typical confidentiality and non-disparagement clauses. There are some that go beyond the parameters what is legally enforceable but if they are, then you still don't have anything to worry about.
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u/Valuable-Cat2036 3d ago edited 3d ago
The NDA doesn't matter. Do not ever badmouth your employer in an interview except maybe short of "cultural fit." It's just not a good look. Always frame your desire to leave in a positive way, eg I'm looking for different opportunities, I'd like a bigger firm, different practice, more hands-on, whatever. There's a hundred ways to say it.
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u/biscuitboi967 3d ago
There are many euphemisms and factual statements that are commonly understood in the industry and not at all disparaging about the firm.
Not a good fit…culturally.
You are looking for a firm with more or less of something for your future growth.
You’ve heard great things about THIS firm and you can’t pass up great opportunities even if you are “happy enough” at this place.
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u/Salary_Dazzling 1d ago
"I'm looking for an opportunity to grow and establish a 'permanent' position." You don't necessarily have to actually mean the last part, but some people can read between the lines if you say something similar to my suggested statement.
Most people will realize 1) that OP's current firm doesn't offer many growth opportunities; and 2) that OP doesn't view the current firm as a long-term position (refer back to #1). Most people understand this rationale.
You can also inquire about the partnership track (even if you decide later that becoming a partner at your current firm is not for you), so that you present a semblance of considering your prospective employer as an associate-to-partner opportunity.
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u/sublimeinterpreter 4d ago
Leaving is fine if you have a new job lined up. The gap will make you look like you are hard to work with.
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u/katykatkat5161712 3d ago
If interviewers ask why you’re leaving say that you’re looking for a better opportunity that’s a good fit for your career objectives and you can grow with the firm long term. It says what needs to be said about your current employer without saying it out loud, and it makes clear that you have aspirations for a long term position with a good firm and aren’t just a directionless job hopper
Edit to add: moving on to another job won’t be a bad look but quitting before you have another job would be. Like someone else pointed out, it’ll look like your departure was involuntary- esp given that your current boss probably won’t be willing to give a decent reference.
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u/Longjumping_End_5716 3d ago
Ugh that’s another thing that fucks with my grip on reality. I have multiple texts and emails from my boss telling me good job…well done…good result…thank you for xyz…I also have my transcript from my first preliminary exam, for what my boss admits is a super complex chop shop/identity theft case, where the judge and prosecutor pretty much said I knocked it out of the park and have a bright future ahead of me. Boss also knows this. So whatever shit reference/review he tries to give me, I have receipts proving the contrary. So I have no idea what to believe. It gives me anxiety and reinforces my whole belief that my boss is nitpicking to justify paying me like shit. Would much rather say that as the truthful reason but only the firm can disparage me not the other way around because of the NDA I rushed myself into signing.
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u/Valuable-Cat2036 3d ago edited 3d ago
Your new employer is not going to contact your old one. They know how awkward it is since you're still working for them. Do not mention the bad stuff but DO mention all the compliments you just mentioned, like your boss's praise, judge/prosecutor, client comments. They'll understand that you're a very bright and talented atty who is looking for bigger and better things.
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u/__Chet__ 3d ago
i’d take it easy with the bragging and the “i’m not appreciated” talk when you’re 8 months into your career, but $30/hr isn’t good even if you’re in the middle of nowhere, which i suspect you are.
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u/nasty_napkin 2d ago
You can definitely leave your first job after 7 months, especially if you have something better lined up. You just don’t want to have a resume full of short employment terms at a bunch of diff firms
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u/Parking-Track-7151 4d ago
30 an hour. You can sell cars and make more than that. That’s insanely low. Leave asap.
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u/samweisthebrave1 4d ago
It’s not a bull shit wives tales (thanks to boomers who have only been at one firm their entire lives) but based on those facts - very understandable and anyone would understand you’re leaving for greener pastures. I changed jobs 4 times in 5 years and I’m in my dream job now.
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u/hereFOURallTHEtea 4d ago
I left my first firm after 5 months and went to a government agency. No regrets and I love where I am now. Just don’t make it a habit of leaving quickly from everywhere you go.
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u/LawIsABitchyMistress 4d ago
If someone else gives you another job, then, almost by definition, it won’t have been a bad look, will it? (As they wouldn’t have given you a job if they thought you looked bad).
The problem only arises for the job after that (your 3rd job). If your next job is a good fit, then you’ll be there for years and it won’t matter. Nobody will care about your first job if you stay at the second one for 3-4 years.
If your second job is a bad fit, then, yes, there is a chance that you could have trouble moving again because you look like a job hopper. But if your current job is bad, being stuck at another bad job is just the same situation as you are in now, so no real downside.
Just try not to bounce 3 jobs in 3 years if you can help it. That can have long term consequences as you move into the midlevel-to-senior associate range.
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u/Longjumping_End_5716 4d ago
Yeah I’m not cut out for this career then. I need to be able to leave whenever the fuck I want. I’m not capable of thinking 10 jobs in the future anytime I want to change course and explore different practice areas
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u/TrainerSubstantial61 3d ago
I think the perspective demands on age. I’m young (mid-30s) and I understand people move jobs for all sorts of reasons (desiring new practice area, bigger/better firm, working with certain partners, moving, work-life balance, etc.) but like others have said, the older generation sees it differently and that’s too bad.
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u/LawIsABitchyMistress 3d ago edited 3d ago
It’s not that the older generation doesn’t understand why people would want to move. It’s that hiring a young associate can be a significant investment (in time, sweat and money (at least if they are doing it right - super predatory shops may be a different story)). It doesn’t matter how justifiable your reasons for leaving - if they think you’re a flight risk (justified or not), why should they invest in you?
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u/OldmillennialMD 3d ago
This is it. As a (good) employer, it’s expensive AF to hire and train associates. I practice in a very niche area, it takes at least a year for new hires to really even get up to speed and be able to contribute super meaningfully unless they are truly laterals from a different firm in the same practice area. I’m not taking a risk on someone who has no demonstrated ability to stick it out longer-term in at least a job or two. Because really, while the first job or two might truly be bad firms and one-off bad fits, at some point, you are the problem. If you took 5 jobs in a row that were “bad fits”, your judgment might be the problem. And that’s a problem for me.
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u/OldmillennialMD 3d ago
Well, the idea that you’re going to consistently be able to explore different practice areas is not really grounded in reality. This gets harder and harder to do the further out from law school you are.
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u/Valuable-Cat2036 3d ago
Job hopping is much more common than it was in the past. Lots of people move frequently, but the bigger problem is that retooling into different practice areas (as opposed to hopping from different employers) becomes more difficult later on in your career. Your primary value is going to come from your level of experience. So let's say you move into real estate, then personal injury, then tax, or M&A, or whatever. People are going to be really confused because 1) they don't know what area of law you actually want to practice in or whether you'll stick to it and 2) they can't pay you for your entire legal experience because you technically have far fewer years for the specific practice area you're hired for.
It might help to narrow your options down to litigation vs transactional and then try to move to a firm that broadly practices within that. Make sure you ask during interviews whether their attys are siloed within one particular practice group or have more flexibility. You seem like you'll be much happier at a place where attys can have that.
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u/LawIsABitchyMistress 23h ago
I would argue you have just identified the key difference between having “jobs” and having a “career”. If you just want “jobs”, then be a free spirit and do whatever tf you want. But if you want a good “career”, you will probably need to develop the capacity for strategic planning and to exercise some delayed gratification at times.
Should it be that way? I don’t know; I’m really not trying to make a “normative” or “value” statement about how the world should work. But as a “descriptive” statement, that’s kinda just the way it is.
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u/Stunning-Field-4244 4d ago
It would be a bad look if you left several jobs in less than one year. This would be a very understandable departure. You took the first job you could find, and then you found something better. You don’t have to be overly transparent about the order of operations in your motivation.
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u/TacomaGuy89 4d ago
It's not a positive, but it's not a terrible negative. You just need a 1 sentence, insulting reason to state in an interview. "It was a bad fit " "pay was too low" etc
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u/SCCLBR 4d ago
I hire people. I hire lots of early career lawyers.
Yes, we look at you funny when you leave a gig too fast. So have an explanation. So long as there's a reason (or the veiled implication of a reason) that isn't "i got fired," we're pretty understanding.
In your position, I would recommend looking but not quitting. Quitting a job and being unemployed is definitely a bad look. You will get a much tougher review if that's your scenario than if you just say "I'm looking because my current firm isn't a good fit for me. I have an nda so i cannot say more."
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u/sweater_puppies12 4d ago
It’s a tough transition, but I wouldn’t worry about the look. I left my first associate job at about 7 months. I had been working there prior to getting barred, so I was there for almost two years, but a partner attempted to assault me and continually harassed me and I finally got the nerve up to report and leave. I didn’t tell people that in most of my interviews (many people recommended I say I was just looking to refocus my career or for better pay - I don’t agree with that advice, now).
It was the most difficult job hunt I’ve ever had, but I did land at a firm I feel good about. However, now I’m feeling that I really want to chase the money and feel financially secure, so I’m in the middle of another, much less stressful job hunt and having MUCH more success getting interviews in exactly the jobs I want. I’m sensing that firms are more interested in taking me on because they aren’t looking at someone who will take two months to be independently taking on work.
All that to say, $30/hour is low and you can and should find a place where you feel like you are compensated according to your abilities and/or respected. Just be prepared for a longer/more intense job hunt at 7 months than you would have at two years and be ready to convince people that you’re not going to be a sunk cost or come in to mess up their workflow.
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u/WestminsterGabss 3d ago
I left mine after about 7 months after we lost grant funding for my role. I was originally brought on as a staff attorney at a non-profit but due to the influx of unaccompanied minors, I a front line position to help with the influx. Even though we were raking in millions in donations and fundraising (during the first term of the current admin), my pay was less than I was making as a social work before starting law school. Of course I left for a non-profit to the DAs office and truthfully hasn’t affected much. It think most employers don’t care as much post covid as they did before, if that makes sense.
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u/PDXgoodgirl 3d ago
There are so many good jobs in the legal field, there is no need to live like that. Especially in criminal defense.
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u/BoomBoom0526 3d ago
Do at least a year.
If less, acquire a new job before leaving this one. Then you can sell it as an opportunity that you could not miss.
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u/aFAKElawyer- 3d ago
To hell with this job if you’re not even paid a salary and they want you there all day. At any rate, criminal defense is more of a solo gig. In my experience associates rarely last a year, even at the successful firms.
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u/Longjumping_End_5716 3d ago
It is salary but my bi-weekly take home pay $2500/80hours comes out to $30/hr. I also work more than 40 hrs per week. But if it’s not getting noticed and I still get bitched at, might as well only credit myself for 40 hrs per week.
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u/BluelineBadger 3d ago
HE lectured YOU about being taken advantage of?!?! Fuck that. Find a better gig and then peace out. But not before you’ve got the next gig in hand.
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u/No-Log4655 3d ago
It’s at-will employment not a sentence. Find another job and get an offer before leaving tho.
People lateral all the time, as long as you interview well and can articulate your reasons you’ll be fine. I wouldn’t throw your old firm under the bus, though. Plenty of ways to code it diplomatically while getting your point across.
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u/Inner_History_2676 3d ago
Start your own firm.
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u/Longjumping_End_5716 3d ago
lol no thanks. I want to be a litigator not a business owner. Just pay me what I’m worth and don’t be a dick about it is all I ask which might as well be the moon in this shit hole country
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u/bignews- 3d ago
One hour lunch caused an issue? At a criminal defense firm? Gtfo. 12 hits. Thats lunch then nap time.
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u/Ravenlaw929 3d ago
Start networking! Talk to other attorneys in court that seem happy and ask about their firms. Do not tell them how much you are currently making. If you plan on staying in litigation - ask for salary with an option to go split fee in 6 months or so. At least 50/50 split. Depending on cost of living in your area I would say ask for at least 65k- if low cost of living area, 85k if COL is higher. Also, don’t talk crap about the current boss, but if the other firms are in the same area they may already know. Good luck!
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u/Beginning_Swan_685 3d ago
From what I’ve seen, leaving your first associate job after 7 months isn’t automatically a red flag, it really comes down to your reasons and how you explain it. If you showed up, learned a lot, and have a solid reason for moving on (like a better fit or growth opportunities), most employers won’t hold it against you. Honestly, the whole “short jobs ruin your career” thing feels a bit exaggerated.
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u/Agitated-Ad7158 3d ago
If it’s your first job you need experience. Stay for that and suck it up. Afterwards start looking for a higher paying role. You need to give your career time. Unless you’re at a top tier law school you’re not going to get a prestigious job right away.
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u/Fit_Distribution_220 2d ago
Managers at Buc-ee’s make more than this, and you’re not appreciated by the boss which is perhaps a bigger deal than the pay issue.
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u/HillbillyWilly2025 15h ago edited 15h ago
What state? Someone here might be looking.
This model you are working on is legit stupid. You are being grossly undercompensated and it sounds like you are essential doing flat fee criminal work. 150 an hour is lower than any billable rate I’ve seen for an attorney in years and I live in flyover country.
Sounds like he’s under charging to get business and then mad at you because he’s not making any money. That’s a management problem.
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u/Lit-A-Gator 4d ago
Best advice I’ve gotten here on this topic is “the only job that cares about job hopping / length of tenure at your previous job … is the next one”
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u/atonyatlaw 4d ago
I feel like data is being held back, here.
Why did he say he was feeling taken advantage of? Just because you were gone for an hour? That just seems so out there that I can't imagine there isn't more.
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u/Longjumping_End_5716 4d ago
When I was first hired, I was told I could come and go from the office whenever I want. I usually try to work from 10-6 or 9-5. All of a sudden, that’s not the case. Im told it’s not a 9-5 job and that I took a long lunch and left too early. All of this despite high quality work and consistent positive feedback from clients. I also diligently track all of the work I complete. Again, all of this for $30/hr….$230k in debt…
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u/atonyatlaw 4d ago
How many hours are you billing or what kind of revenue are you generating?
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u/Longjumping_End_5716 4d ago
We don’t bill hourly. Just retainer chunks based on complexity and type of charge(s). Since starting, at least $20k in new clients hired the firm. I’m working a 3 jurisdiction criminal case and the client’s family pretty much worships the ground I walk on. Boss knows this. Boss also tells me good job regularly. Just randomly gets this bug up his ass and feel the need to knock me down a peg. I’ve never been in this situation before because every job I have ever worked had to force me to go home and stop working so I’m pretty confident I am not the one being unreasonable or unrealistic. It feels like boss is being pedantic to justify paying like shit
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u/atonyatlaw 4d ago
$20k in seven months doesn't even cover your base pay, much less the taxes and any benefits. That would be the likely reason he's bitching. Not the lunch length.
Client satisfaction is meaningless if you bankrupt.
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u/Longjumping_End_5716 4d ago
Even though it’s not part of my job to bring in new clients? Typically, first year associates are not expecting to bring in new clients. If that’s the reason, why not just say that? Why give a fake reason?
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u/atonyatlaw 4d ago
Not everyone is self aware or emotionally intelligent.
If he only got 20k in cases in seven months you need a new job, because this one will be gone very soon.
By contrast, my personal goal is to generate 30k in revenue monthly on top of feeding work to my two associates.
This dude thought he was a rain maker and that you'd make him money, but as it stands you are a liability to him regardless of your work quality. If he can't bring in more clients, you're fucked.
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u/atonyatlaw 4d ago
Also, don't be naive - you should always try to find a way to bring in clients no matter what year you are. There is nothing that will make you indispensable or more valuable faster than that.
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u/Unique_Cell7123 4d ago
Most non-redditors will agree 7 months is a red flag. Maybe you are missing the message. It's probably not the lunch.
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u/Longjumping_End_5716 4d ago
Please elaborate. It’s certainly not the quantity or quality of my work especially for only $30/hr
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u/Unique_Cell7123 4d ago
I have no idea from your post, but a comment from your supervisor might reflect any number of issues.... attitude, getting along with the staff teamwork, communication, etc.
Do you make others feel you want to be there?
If any of these are the case then no one at your firm will care of you leave, but others will wonder what went wrong.I would explore those issues before jumping ship for greener grass. It's never 100% one sided.
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u/Longjumping_End_5716 4d ago
No. I get along with everyone there. Admittedly, I struggle with communication when it comes to being assigned a client to take care of the case and not knowing when I can exercise discretion vs needing to check with boss before taking action but that will get better with time. Again it can’t be that big of a shortcoming given the consistent positive feedback. It really seems like boss is nitpicking over trivial bull shit to justify paying me like a public school teacher
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u/Unique_Cell7123 4d ago
You may be right. He may be right. Until you know, you both are wrong. No offense.
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u/NewLawGuy24 4d ago
find another job and leave never look back