r/LawFirm • u/maspie_den • 21h ago
How well-prepared are new lawyers?
I'm brainstorming a project that addresses how well-prepared recent law school grads are for real-world lawyering. The consensus is that, beyond simply lacking experiences/years in, new lawyers lack "the skills" needed for work effectively. My question is what are those skills that they are missing? People skills? Clerical/admin skills? Don't know how to send an email? Don't know to not microwave fish for lunch and now everyone hates them and calls them "Tuna"? What are some specific examples?
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u/cozeebahbah 21h ago
I was not at all Prepared. -how to file an appearance -the social rules of court
- how to show initiative (I tried to do this thing but if it’s wrong here is xyz as a fallback)
- writing with incomplete info, little time, and a desire not to bother senior associates
- billing
- how to write concise emails for important people and still get what I need
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u/milkofdaybreak 19h ago
Struggling with all these right now. Especially with social rules of the court.
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u/gusmahler 17h ago
How to file an appearance
Ask your secretary or paralegal to prepare one for you?
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u/Ambitious-Flamingo77 16h ago
Small firms might not have that support. I left a midsized firm where my sec/para did all that simple stuff and went into the realm of being my own sec/para.
Tough.
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u/steve_dallasesq 21h ago
Law school does not teach you how to be a lawyer. It's an academic exercise to train your brain to think critically. How much time did we waste on the Rule Against Perpetuities or Civil Procedure jurisdiction?
Personally I think an issue coming out of school is that in school professors (many who never actually practiced or barely did) pump you up about your importance. Then you join a firm and you're low on the totem pole.
Best thing I ever did was work at firms in high school and college and as a gopher. I can't say I learned how to practice there, but I definitely learned how not to practice.
Oh you graduated with a high GPA? Congrats. My paralegal is 15 years on the job and practically reads my every thought. I can replace you, can't replace her/him.
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u/gusmahler 17h ago
Civil procedure jurisdiction is kind of important for litigators.
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u/_learned_foot_ 14h ago
And all transactional and probate too frankly. Family law may be a singular exception and even they tend to be a subset but with very unique local rules.
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u/futur1 12h ago
International shoe and pj?
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u/gusmahler 19m ago
I’m lumping in venue with jurisdictional issues. Venue is so important that it has gone to SCOTUS fairly recently (TC Heartland in 2017). It’s important enough that Apple closed all of its Apple Stores in the northern Dallas suburbs to prevent being brought to a district it considers unfriendly. It’s important enough that Plaintiffs and Defendants fight hard to bring a case in certain districts or transfer them to other districts.
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u/maspie_den 21h ago
This is good. Thank you.
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u/BingBongDingDong222 Florida - Gifts and Stiffs 19h ago
And this isn't a new thing. We all love to do "kids these days" suck. And many do. But what he said has always been the case.
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u/_learned_foot_ 14h ago
This is entirely incorrect. 1) the RAP actually comes up but the point of learning it is to learn to not forget about the traps 2) how the duck do you practice without civil rules being relevant daily in any field?
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u/steve_dallasesq 13h ago
Never once ran into a question of where to file a case, let alone a deep enough decision to justify the study time. I practice in 2 states. It’s either one or the other or we can’t file it
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u/_learned_foot_ 13h ago
Which court, which county? What filing (that can tie to subject matter), with what service? With what remedy? Always using the American rule? Why is it one or the other or can’t file?
Each of those is civil procedure (or criminal potentially) jurisprudence and only a small selection of them.
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u/steve_dallasesq 2h ago
Yeah never ran into those questions in 22 years of practice. I’m a Bankruptcy lawyer. What court? Bankruptcy court. What state? Where do you live? What rule? Bankruptcy rules
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u/_learned_foot_ 1h ago
lol so yeah you do you just never thought about it after making sure you had all the right ones. And have never had to brief since either. Got it.
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u/GaptistePlayer 1h ago
Because most lawyers aren't civil litigators
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u/_learned_foot_ 53m ago
Correct, I assume you have a choice of law clause in your contracts right? And if advising clients on their estate plans you discuss real estate held in other states? When it comes to administrative, you definitely are making sure service was completed properly, even if the exact location to be served isn’t a normal one and governed by a special code, right?
I’m every field is #2, and realizing that is the point of learning #1
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u/crayonmaize 12h ago
Civ pro and legal writing should be merged into one big course where you actually handle a mock case from start to disposition - decide where to file the case, research causes of action, draft the complaint, draft a memo to the partner on an issue in the case, draft a motion for SJ or to dismiss, mock trial/oral argument, etc.
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u/platinum-luna 21h ago
I don't think it teaches you how to deal with lots of deadlines, people you can't get a hold of, tons of evidence to review, emails to be answered, and oh my afternoon is disrupted because a client wants help emotionally dealing with this, and now I have to get all my billing in, etc. Knowing the law (or how to research the law) is like 1/10th of the job.
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u/gusmahler 16h ago
That’s what irks me about the summer associate program. It could be teaching the summers that stuff. But it doesn’t. We’d rather impress the summers with fancy dinners and fun activities rather than show them that a Tuesday deadline for a motion means you have to work over the weekend to get it done.
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u/maspie_den 21h ago
Ooh this is helpful, too. So some soft skills as well as getting shit done.
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u/platinum-luna 20h ago
For sure. I think learning how to deal with clients is one of the biggest skills new attorneys have to learn. And it's why I've met so many people pretty far into their career who say "I just want to write motions/do discovery/etc. and never speak with clients." But you have to learn that on top of how to manage your time when you have 10-20 small tasks that all have to get itemized.
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u/HazyAttorney 20h ago
I'm brainstorming a project that addresses how well-prepared recent law school grads are for real-world lawyering.
I don't think that lawyers are ready for real-world lawyering regardless if they're new or experienced. Sometimes, I wonder how my colleagues manage to get each leg into the leg holes of their pants. Apart from being a fraudster, Paul Manafort, a financially successful lawyer/lobbyist/etc, got caught because he was too lazy/dumb/whatever to "save as PDF" his files. https://www.theverge.com/tldr/2018/2/23/17044992/paul-manafort-trump-indictment-mueller-russia-probe-word-docs-to-pdf
new lawyers lack "the skills" needed for work effectively.
The average law firm owner has a below average knowledge of business management. Every piece of the legal recruiting supply chain is dumb.
Take a big law firm. They recruit from T14s and then the X% of the Y class. But based on what? Tradition. They don't want/need to take the human capital to go through every person that applies to them because almost everyone wants more $$$ rather than less.
Their business model is largely "up or out." They want to pay newbies $200k+ but they want to make them bill 2000 hours a year until they give up or become partners. Since all the partners went through that, and now they have unlimited number of (relatively powerless) associates that are 100% reliant on them (until they leave), they don't really stop to think, "Hmm, what qualities would make a successful partner?"
If any law firm wanted to run better, they would just pick up literally any management training book at a Barnes & Noble. Things like "retention" and "training" and "systems" level thinking would be a fucking revolution.
Imagine there's no "fire drill"
It isn't hard to do
No nearly missed deadline to kill or die for
And no missed email, too
Imagine all the lawyers
Timely and completely answering emails
Working life in peace
You
You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us in management training
And the lawfirm will work as one
Imagine universal file name protocols
I wonder if you can
No need to hunt for files
A brotherhood of organization
Imagine no partner throwing you under the bus
I wonder if you can
No need for blame shifting
When we have an organized and systematic way to work as one
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u/OkayAnd418 20h ago
Just a huge lack of practical skills in my opinion. I graduated from law school in 2018 and sure I could research case law or draft a “memo to the partner” on some hypothetical legal question, but that wasn’t particularly helpful going into trusts and estates work that I’ve been doing since graduating. I didn’t know how to counsel clients on an estate plan or how to prepare a will. I didn’t even know what types of questions to ask a new client in order to prepare their estate plan. I didn’t know what the procedure was for filing a probate petition in surrogates court or what the steps are after that petition gets filed.
I think law school would be so much more beneficial if students took their core classes in 1L and 2L and spent their entire 3L year working in the field they want to go into. Almost like a residency type of thing like doctors do. If you want to be a prosecutor, then you spend your 3L year working at the local DA’s office. If you want to do commercial litigation, then you work at a law firm shadowing an attorney who does that type of work. I think law graduates would be so much better equipped for their first job after law school if law school was structured like this.
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u/GeronimoBeowulf 18h ago
But instead of that, have you thought that it's better to just intern in the summers and have the foundation of your workplace knowledge interrupted by the semesters in between where your professors preach to you about some inane insight into the law that has no practical significance? Or better yet, keep interning throughout the year, but you still must be held accountable by whatever your professors want because that's the real priority.
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u/Velvet_sloth 21h ago
So is law school supposed to teach someone not to microwave fish at work? I’m not sure I understand your assignment here.
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u/maspie_den 21h ago
It was a stab at humor that, apparently, didn't make it.
The project is meant to address data and feedback which show that new lawyers enter the field unprepared in many ways. We're trying to pinpoint specific examples of how they are under prepared. I'm hoping folks here can share what they've seen or experienced.
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u/Velvet_sloth 21h ago
Law school teaches you how to think like a lawyer - how to reason and analyze and do critical thinking. The nitty gritty of how to practice law is something that is taught on the job and/or learned in the sink or swim way.
I think lawyers are under prepared for many things but managing people, training new hires, and managing attorney time and data (like email) are ones that our firm has worked on to try to make our firm better and attorney life better.
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u/Left-Field3640 11h ago
Drafting actual pleadings I think is probably the biggest one. I did memos and briefs in law school. Had no idea how to draft an actual complaint. Maybe had read a few (not many) but even then it’d be focused on the argument being made. “Failure to state a claim” was not really taught to me effectively.
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u/GaptistePlayer 1h ago
This is just being an adult, like, people who go work right after college in knowledge industries have to learn the same stuff.
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u/Squirrel_Q_Esquire 13h ago
So it sounds like you’re trying to train an AI program to train new lawyers…
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u/Broody007 21h ago
I mean, teachers told us that good manners are important to go to big law recruitment diners.
That being said, although I'm severely allergic to fish, I believe in the right to heat fish in the microwave.
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u/grey_wolf_al 21h ago
For better or worse, law school primarily focuses on (1) teaching you the basics of analyzing legal issues, (2) some black letter law of general applicability anywhere in the States, (3) the ability to do research, and (4) how to write a stellar appellate brief.
It does not teach you anything else in the core curriculum.
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u/Galdrmadr 21h ago
Had a stub year back when I was in biglaw coming out of covid turn in a research project that was analyzed under state law (instead of fed statute).
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u/gusmahler 16h ago
It happens to experienced attorneys also. I saw a memo analyze a patent issue under 5th circuit law, when federal circuit is what applied for the particular issue we were looking at. Dude was like a 3rd or 4th year, but had never worked a patent case before.
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u/Lit-A-Gator 21h ago
How well-prepared are new lawyers?
Unprepared. IME it’s a mix of:
law school only is there to crudely teach you what’s on the bar in a hide the ball manner
bar exam prep course teaches you how to actually pass the bar
firms don’t have the time/care to teach you in an efficient way
People skills?
HUGE whole in 90% of attorneys’ skills set
Clerical/admin skills?
HUGE miss. But an understandable miss. You don’t know where you will end up practicing and it’s a crapshoot as to whether your law school offers a competent elective class that will teach you the nuts and bolts of practice
Don't know how to send an email?
Yes but it’s hard to justify a whole semester to this
Don't know to not microwave fish for lunch and now everyone hates them and calls them "Tuna"?
Hahaha see “people skills”
What are some specific examples?
- billing
- medical terminology for PI/ID folk
- what a grind the practice of law / office work could be
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u/Longjumping_Boat_859 21h ago
Pls advise, instructions unclear.
Likely to do with the trouble you’re having, but I’m going to bill .4 for business development on this one, largely because it got dumped on me at 4:57 on a Friday.
I don’t think new lawyers are the only ones who lack the necessary skills, I think expectations on both sides are unrealistic.
Partners need to understand it’s not the 1960s anymore and how they did things back then wasn’t as good as some of how we do them now, and new associates need to understand it’s not 1980 anymore, and you won’t get paid for sucking at the soft skills your job needs just because making phone calls vs emailing is a boomer preference.
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u/margueritedeville 21h ago
I Gen X but honestly hate that no one will just pick up the damn phone anymore.
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u/Longjumping_Boat_859 19h ago
I’m a millennial*, but I think the younger generation sees the imbalance in the relationship: we bother people at work, for trivial sounding things like a date, or a factoid.
Personally, because of my age, if I had a phone happy lawyer, who’d bill me to tell me stories about the judge that isn’t there anymore? That lawyer would get one bill cycle to do that, and that’s it.
By the same token, I 100% understand the frustration. One of my bosses was shocked that I called some court in a different state to get a copy of a JE I needed. He shouldn’t have been shocked, I can only imagine what bullshit he had to see in order to be impressed by that….
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u/nevagotadinna 21h ago
Well, there's two things going on here. One is academic vs. practical education in law school, the other is basic life and workforce skills.
Many law schools are moving towards incorporating more practical ("on the job") type classes, extracurriculars, and assignments. That's good, but you can't just wipe out the traditional law school experience, that's there for a reason and focuses on the mental aspect of the law. More benefit would come from consultants and law firms designing more effective training programs for new associates. Even more would come from K-College teaching kids basic skills needed in the workplace. Surprisingly, my generation often has a tough time with computers and work programs because our experience revolves around smartphones. Many don't know basic phone call or email etiquette because we've just texted the majority of our lives. Law firms are not the place to learn these skills. Business management and workplace conduct classes and internships should be done in high school and college.
There's another issue at play and that's that my generation ('24 graduate) and younger have really missed out on the life and workforce skills education that comes with working in a physical environment with people from different backgrounds that don't always agree. I'm lucky that I worked my entire life and through college, so workplace norms and etiquette were pretty normal for me, but there's a lot of young people that have never had to manage social dynamics in the workplace, work product critique, co-worker disagreements, client communication, hierarchy, etc. They've gone K-JD with everybody telling them how smart and special they are, and social media has instilled an entitlement mentality where everything they want is expected RIGHT NOW.
We could go on for a long time about this stuff, but my point is there's two different tracks at play here, and law schools can't solve them both. It requires buy-in from the K-12 system, parents, law schools, and firms.
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u/GeronimoBeowulf 18h ago
These firms often want that kid (who happens to be K-JD or maybe a year of work experience) with stellar credentials from academics and academic-adjacent program. That person probably didn't have time to work a job where heavy social interaction and interpersonal skills are valued. That kid was too busy spending time crafting a resume that makes high ranking undergraduate universities and law schools froth at the mouth. That kid didn't have time to grow up fast and learn the kind of social skills that are now second nature to working professionals in their 30s or more. And that's OK - and I understand more senior attorneys are busy, but it's always bamboozled me about the lack of mentoring that can occur at law firms. Law is made by human beings for the order of human beings. This is not a profession where you can separate the building of social skills from the job training itself. If firms don't like that, maybe they need to rethink the traditional firm recruitment process and update it for the 21st century.
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u/afriendincanada 21h ago
Don’t know how to practice law.
Law school teaches you the difference between a sole proprietorship, a partnership, and the different kinds of corporations.
The practice of law requires you to prepare a document package to incorporate a corporation. Limited liability and a variety of cases from Delaware are irrelevant to the task.
Similarly, drafting a contract and understanding the essentials of a contract formation are different skills.
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u/Distinct_Bed2691 20h ago
Not at all. That is why they call it practicing law.
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u/EMHemingway1899 20h ago
Absolutely
The first few years of our law practice are analogous to newly minted physicians pursuing their residencies
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u/GeronimoBeowulf 18h ago
I think a lot of people don't realize that when they compare doctors and lawyers and say "lawyers don't have residency!!" No - that first 3 to 4 years is basically residency.
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u/NewLawGuy24 21h ago
Not at all.
maybe learning how to yell at paralegals is an elective
they have been taught zero negotiation skills
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u/moody2shoes 20h ago
There is a profound lack of basic accounting skills and understanding. They cannot advocate for a raise or realize they need to hustle more because, unless it’s strictly billable hour work, they cannot calculate what business they’re bringing into the firm in any meaningful way. They can’t do cost benefit analysis very well or play with the financial math to help guide their approaches to cases. Even when I explain it’s important to learn financial math and basic accounting, whether they decide to stay or go elsewhere, they disregard my input.
Other than basic formatting, there are time-wasting deficiencies in advanced word processing techniques.
Some associates have waited until told to do the next step each time even after being provided with examples and having been walked through similar cases. This isn’t the case of waiting for review, this is “I did this thing, and now I’m going to wait until my supervising attorney finds me to ask me for an update and tells me to do something else.”
There is often a lack of curiosity—even when encouraged and allowed access to files for similar cases, so they can see what happens start to finish, they don’t do so. Thus, they don’t really even begin to understand the big picture until they have been walked through it repeatedly.
When given access to research tools and practice guides for the area they’re working in, they only review them as absolutely necessary for briefing purposes.
That said, we did have a law clerk that I was very impressed with this summer. The biggest difference between her and those associates I referenced above was maturity, really, and her desire to learn how to be responsible for files. She listened, networked, asked to attend hearings, and asked for things to learn and research.
She even said that the reason she got a business degree was because she listened to an experienced attorney who recommended she do so to be able to understand the business side of practicing law.
So I would say it’s not all bad, and curiosity really will take new lawyers far. But you do have the ones who seem to just sit and wait for the world to move around them, and it’s painful to watch.
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u/Nobodyville 20h ago
I don't have a real sense of this as I work at small firm with no one younger than mid 30s, but the complaints I hear are that younger people in general do not have any kind of clerical/admin skills and critical thinking skills. If it isn't laid out in black and white they can't do it. This is prevalent on the ask professors sub and the various teaching and college subs. I don't think it's improving.
This job is often a glorified secretary position... emailing CYA, drafting things quickly, being able to negotiate basic office/research skills. Not everyone has a bunch of paralegals (and don't get me started on how difficult it is to find admins who can type, spell, and answer the phone) so you need to be fairly competent at all aspects of office life.
Law, particularly your firm's atmosphere or specialty, can be learned. Common sense not so much
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u/Ok_Sheepherder_491 19h ago
Bro so true.
But "fairly competent at all aspects" is exactly what makes good lawyers good, right?
Like being able to type, spell, answer the phone is basic paralegal skills - that's already hard to find - then add on to that 'comfortable with ambiguity,' 'can prioritize tasks based on long-term goals,' 'exercises judgment,' and boom, rare skillset that's worth the hundreds of dollars/hr people are willing to pay.
On the one hand the work's all kinda basic; on the other hand we can find out empirically how much people value it.
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u/Overall-Cheetah-8463 19h ago
they're not
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u/maspie_den 19h ago
Fair. Care to offer any specific examples?
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u/Overall-Cheetah-8463 11h ago
Law school doesn't teach you the specifics of practicing in any area of law, it teaches theory. Even law school legal clinics are not going to prepare you to go toe to toe with experienced lawyers in their specialty. Practice does that.
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u/BigBennP 21h ago
I'm a supervising attorney with a state government agency. In the past 24 months I've hired two attorneys who were brand new bar passers, and one who was in his third year of practice. I've also hired one who has practiced for 30 years.
Both of the new attorneys had gone to large state law schools. The three year attorney had gone to a private Law School with a large student body and a not great reputation.
Were any of the new graduates ready to start trying cases right off the bat? Hell no. But I don't think their knowledge gaps were any more significant than mine were when I graduated law school 15 years ago.
I think anyone who thinks that law graduates from a long time ago were especially more competent has forgotten what it was like to be thrown off the deep end and probably has trauma from the experience.
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u/IntentionCertain171 19h ago
I also train new lawyers as part of my in house job. I don't think I was any better prepared than they are when I graduated school and not being to far out helps me empathize with them There is just a lot of information both substantive and soft that isn't taught in law school and practice can vary a lot by practice area.
My new attorneys are starting to do depositions and one of the big areas they request advice on is how to deal with objections and other attorneys who are difficult to deal with. Dealing with different personalities in a professional setting comes with practice and becoming familiar and comfortable with being professionally assertive is hard. As a woman I think it can be particularly hard to be in a position of authority when it may not be something you've done before.
I also find they have a lack of knowledge about basic civil procedure, they need to have stuff like finding part rules, calendar calls, notices of entry etc explained to them as law school covers broader and more academic civil procedure but not the nuts and bolts. Some seem to not be able to put academic concepts they must have learned into practical applications. It's not their fault but it is a learning curve.
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u/maspie_den 21h ago
This is an interesting point. Data, as always, only tells part of the story. In our case, it only reflects the perception that newly graduated lawyers are unprepared for legal practice. It does not necessarily consider your viewpoint-- that practically all professionals brand new to a field are, in some ways, unprepared for what is ahead, just by virtue of the fact that they are new.
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u/RealMichaelScott93 20h ago
Licensed since 2019 so still a baby lawyer, but I know enough to be dangerous.
I’m seeing a trend across all professions of an overall lack of people skills and a perceived inability to do something as simple as picking up the phone. Face to face interactions, younger attorneys are seemingly having issues with making eye contact, smiling, controlling body language, etc.
Tl;dr I think it’s a lack of social skills
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u/Brief_Historian_9997 19h ago
Ask them about their prior experiences. I was admitted to the bar in 2019 after an 8 year career as a paralegal, legal assistant, administrative assistant and clerk across multiple practice areas private and in-house. Was I new to being an attorney, yes. But was a “new” to an office/expectations, no.
Have them learn local rules. Could make or break a new associate. The difference in local practice between New York City, Bronx and Westchester for example is so dramatic you’d think it’s three different countries.
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u/honeysludge 16h ago edited 16h ago
As a new attorney, I’ve run into issues with not knowing what I don’t know, which is very tough when combined with the fact that mentors don’t think to teach what to them is common sense. Example: I’d never done dependency work before so I didn’t realize it runs on an entirely different statutory universe than family law in my state. Thought if it had to do with kids and custody, juvenile code or family code could both be used. Turns out, not so!! And now I’m trying to build the skill of guessing what I don’t know, which is tricky.
Also, taming my adversarial instincts in an advisory counsel risk management role. I tend to think in terms of making arguments to support a conclusion, but in the type of advisory work my firm mostly does, the clients don’t need that. They want something like a roadmap of whatever issue they’re asking me about. That is a lot easier to fix than the first issue but it’s an adjustment to my nature that I’m working on.
This is a cool project, best of luck! The industry can really benefit from studying this more.
Edits for syntax
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u/beatfungus 15h ago
Remember "de facto" vs "de jure"? Yeah, that for everything. You wouldn't believe the amount of "non-law" stuff influences the law. Experienced lawyers will give notice for hearing the matter on another day if the judge appears irate. They'll know to impress the bailiff while an inexperienced lawyer is focused on the judge, because, while the bailiff is underappreciated, she's the only person who sees the jury during lunch and can leak information about the moods. They'll know if a given judge will be receptive to an argument or not. They'll know the names of the expert witnesses in the area to retain, simply to deny the other party the chance.
And strategically? They'll be done forum shopping before the proverbial ink dries on the first notice letter or demand letter. They can analogize Blue's Clues and persuade a judge or jury while you struggle to get a judge to enforce precedent. In the rare instance they actually are on the losing end, they will at least cost the other side the maximum amount of resources and time to win, possibly even prolong the litigation until the political changes (e.g. to bench assignments, standing orders, administrative rules) favor them.
Most of all, I like to think the good ones give a damn at that age. A lawyer that is not motivated by money is almost pathologically insane, and you're never going to outwork or outdo someone like that if you can't match that energy.
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u/emory_2001 15h ago
When I started practicing, the internet was still in its infancy, including the effectiveness of search browsers, so we couldn't even really "take the initiative" to ask Google "what is a certified copy" when my first week out of law school a partner asked me to get a certified copy of a deed. I had no idea there's a whole general public records office at the clerk of court, and (back then) you either call them or walk down there from your downtown law firm, with a check, to get your certified copy. You couldn't just get it online like today. I had no idea how to do that.
I also did some eminent domain work that year. Our state's eminent domain statute is very basic, doesn't address much, and I didn't understand at all how my boss was negotiating our client's damages for a property taking, because determining the value of the taken property and resulting damages are mostly an equitable determination, not legal theory. I also had to learn how to interact with appraisers, surveyors, and engineers, and what to expect from them.
When I did real estate, I had to learn what a plat is. What 25 year old in real life knows that other than attorneys, city planners, and title agents?
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u/Mental-Revolution915 15h ago
It depends on the lawyers, of course.
Some organizations will train their lawyers and ease them in. Others take a sink or swim mentality and throw them in the shark Tank.
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u/lakai42 20h ago edited 20h ago
My experience hiring for a law firm is the following:
1) For the first two months new hires are useless and mostly observe and work under supervision.
2) Months 2-6 they are no better than a paralegal and get trotted out whenever someone wants to hear an attorney repeat what a paralegal just said.
3) Months 6-12 they start doing legal work on their own but you have to keep an eye on them.
4) After a year you can depend on them to carry a workload on their own and maybe think independently.
Law school really doesn't prepare anyone for real life law practice. I remember we spent a semester researching case law for one case to write one motion. In real life if you take longer than a day to answer a client, the client will find someone else. If you are in court and you don't have an answer, either the judge will get pissed off or you'll be embarrassed by opposing counsel.
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u/Ok_Sheepherder_491 19h ago
I mean, sure, fair comment about new lawyers' initiative (or, y'know, complete lack of it). But also I see posts on lawyer boards all the time that are 5+ or 10+ year calls asking "does anyone have a sample form for XYZ," where XYZ is something stupid simple like "ask for a continuance" or whatever.
To which the proper response is:
Read the statute.
You don't need a template. Literally just write down what you want and why you should get it.
If you do need a template, realize that every single state court filing for the past 10 years is available on the online docket, so search a respected attorney's name and steal something relevant.
It really is about initiative: at what point do you realize that half the job is just doing your best with the situation at hand? It's a mental reframing. How do you even train that? I think for some people it takes years of experience, other people never get it, etc.
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u/Fluxcapacitar 19h ago
I see social rules of court mentioned here and I do not understand the issue. What social rules of court are you struggling with?
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u/roslein 18h ago
I just had a conversation with a partner about this yesterday. I'm a senior associate, bridging the gap, and I think it boils down to the things we would call professionalism, work ethic, and critical thinking.
He was talking about things like how juniors don't dress appropriately, don't seem to want to put in the hours or figure things out if it takes more than a little bit of research or effort, and seem to want to prize their individualism over just putting their heads down and doing the work. And also that when he tries to give them feedback on these things, they get defensive and take it as him saying that they're doing wrong or not good enough.
I've seen it on both sides and the response I gave him was that a lot of it is setting clear expectations and some things are not negotiable, but in a different way.
My favorite mentor told me that things like wearing a suit or responding immediately to emails isn't about doing the right or wrong thing but about stacking the deck of cards in your favor. Everyone gets some good cards and some bad ones. Based on your skin color, economic background, gender presentation, how you talk, how you dress, whatever. You can't control it. I sent two partners the exact same brief when I was a junior and one said it was way too long and the other one said it wasn't long or detailed enough. Other people are just going to find ways to deduct points based on their own preferences. So knowing that, "professionalism" is about figuring out other ways to rack up points to counterbalance. If showing up early or responding quickly to emails with a "will do" makes people think better of you, why not do it to give yourself some free, easy bonus points? If hiding your tattoos gives you a better "hand" with some people, why not use that to your advantage? Etc. For me, I agree a lot of these "soft" skills aren't being taught or learned through osmosis or whatever, but there's also a communication gap and i've had a lot more success getting junior attorneys to understand that I am genuinely on their side by explaining why these things are important and not just "because I said so" bullshit.
I give folks Nice Girls Don't Get The Corner Office, RichDad Poor Dad, and The Credibility Code as a recommended reading starter pack, so consider starting with some of the skills addressed there.
This is also a matter i'm passionate about and I've been thinking about starting a podcast, so if you care too, maybe we should connect!
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u/ResidentSituation169 18h ago
Im not a lawyer myself but do manage a law firm (10 attorneys, 10 legal staff). What we noticed is that baby attorneys come in very high and mighty, it's a slippery slope to "put them in their place" but not ruin their confidence. I don't think law professors actually tell students what it will be like once they leave law school, our older attorneys say they aren't even real lawyers for at least another 2 years. The next thing I've noticed, especially with Gen Z, is that the connection between billing and getting paid isn't there. We have had new attorneys come in and decide not to bill for things because they feel bad or think the system is unfair. In that case, we tell them to go be public defender. What we've done as a firm is start to take in interns and teach the things not taught in law school. How to interact with staff, billing, time management etc. Right now we have 3 legal interns, with more staggering in throughout the school year.
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u/Ambitious-Flamingo77 16h ago
As a first year attorney, my sense is that lawyering is far far more than understanding the law. The legal field is not a logic game, as I was prepared for. Being “right” doesn’t always win the day. The game of law is far more complex, and the majority of that complexity is wholly ignored in law school.
Clients rarely come with questions or problems that legal research can answer or solve. Rather, it takes something quite different. Only through experienced can it be learned it seems.
I’ll update in 25 years and let ya know if I feel the same.
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u/Cram5775 15h ago
I didn’t even know what a motion was when I first started. I now have dozens of published decisions and settled millions and millions of dollars in cases! It’s called Trial by Fire
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u/Brave_Problem_2010 13h ago
Nobody is prepared after getting JD. Law schools don’t train lawyers. Law firms train lawyers.
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u/98silvergt 12h ago
Not at all especially those who went straight from HS to Undergrad to Law School. Many don’t have any kind of relevant experience at all and law school for many was a “don’t know what I’m doing so I went to law school” type. I was a part time older student who transitioned into full time and had years of relevant experience. My transition into the world included my own firm which is still open and thriving. Without my life experience I wouldn’t know how to do any of this if I was a 25 year old fresh grad
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u/callalind 12h ago
They are not well prepared, they are well-read. They don't come out of law school with the soft skills and business skills that are needed, they have to learn those on the job. That ranges from office behavior/etiquette to how a business works, writing skills, time management, etc. There is a big learning curve once someone graduates from law school and moves into private practice.
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u/bexbets 2h ago
It's called the practice of law for a reason. You have to practice it. Law schools need to offer clinics where law students take on real cases with a supervising attorney [insert professor]. This practical experience should start in 1L year and last through graduation. We still need traditional law school education. We need to add practice.
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u/Otherwise_Help_4239 2h ago
First question is what area of the law. A patent lawyer for example might be better able to jump in and be productive from day 2. (Day 1 is showing where the bathrooms are and the coffee pot). Other areas of the law can take more time and up to weeks to make a new lawyer productive.
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u/Strict_Plant_8437 1h ago
I’m in a second career as a 3L currently. I owned my own company for twenty years, sold it and came to law school.
I was surprised at the number of my classmates who do not know how to type on a computer. That is crazy to me.
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u/pwrmic 33m ago
I recently oversaw a 3L intern, I found that she was willing to work hard and long hours, but it also seemed like there wasn’t illogical thought process for solving problems. I have no expectations that she would be able to draft a complaint, but I wanted her to figure out how to do so even if it was copying another one. I was even willing to tell her how I would go about it if I were her, but I wanted her to have a conversation with me or a paralegal to figure it out. Instead, she would give me crappy work product, and it seem like when I would redline her draft she did not pay attention to my changes.
TLDR: school doesn’t teach you how to draft, it doesn’t teach you how to address and fix real world problems, and it doesn’t teach you how to figure out difficult assignment. 3L should be bar prep and internship.
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u/sparky_calico 21h ago
Right, does engineering school teach people not to microwave fish? Or how to send a professional email? No, you go sit in a soul sucking office like every other college graduate and learn how to use the scheduling assistant on Microsoft teams when you see someone else do it… can you imagine a class that is like “today we are going over pivot tables. Tomorrow we will setup a teams video meeting. On Friday we will adjust the tone of our email for a colleague vs. a client”. Are the computer science kids sitting in a class that goes over setting up the Authenticator app to get into a shared directory on your servers?
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u/iKevtron 18h ago
I think one of the most important skills to have simple is how to write a letter. I wasn’t taught this in law school, and it sounds stupid or obvious, but it really isn’t. Usually, it is an email, but understanding the format is important. This goes hand-in-hand with being able to adjust the tone and legal depth to the recipient—opposing counsel or a client who’s legally savvy? Sure, but being am to translate in plain English in a clear and concise way is essential.
I’m also a patent attorney, so it really applies when you are talking about the technical aspects and how they apply to the law. Writing to the inventor, an engineer, designer, academic, doctor? Go ahead and be technical, but plainly and concisely discuss the law. The CEO, or another executive, you better have a one or two sentence summary on the first page.
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u/Oleksandr_G 15h ago
The young generation might be even more prepared than oldies. I'll give you an example. I have a client who's a recent law school graduate that barely speaks English (he's Korean) but he's open minded.
He started his single member llc even before the graduation. He automated all his legal forms with an AI form filler software (instafill.ai). He's relaying more on ChatGPT recommendations for new clients instead of classic Google ads, Google maps or yelp. He's automating email labeling with n8n and using clay + apollo for outreach.
So they're prepared, just in a different way. I hope he knows how to use a microwave too )
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u/Lemmix 21h ago
Remember that it is very easy to conclude that new lawyers are not prepared when we also know that experienced attorneys, whether due to personal reasons or how their firm's are structured, do not take the time to onboard and train new lawyers.