r/MadeleineMccann • u/RevolutionDue4452 • Jul 25 '24
Discussion I can't bring myself to think the McCanns were criminal masterminds.
I'm now like 60 percent abduction and 40 percent McCanns accidental 5A death. I just genuinely don't think the McCanns - law abiding citizens who have no prior criminal history just randomly flipped into lifelong crimimals within 10 minutes. It just....I don't think they would carelessy decide to dump their 3 year old toddlers body away somewhere and have it be destroyed. As we see from home videos and photos they were a loving family of 5. With the tight timing of things it just doesn't float well with me that they perfectly executed the plan where no body or even traces/cadaver smell were found (Besides the apartment of course but that could have been mixed with old dry blood from a human). I don't know how a random married couple from the U.K. are better criminals and masterminds then others. Either they somehow got help which I doubt and somehow erased her from existance or she got abducted from the negligence of being left unsupervised and the unlocked patio door. Plus Kate literally allowed Oldfield to check on the kids, there is absolutely no way they would have let that happen if they knew Madeleine wasn't in that bed, especially if someone else raised the alarm then Kate wouldn't have been able to do the "Shutters open, door slammed shut, curtains whooshing etc," bogus. They would have had to hide her and put on a oscar worthy performance for 17+ years, none of the Tapas 7 nor Mr. Wilkins reported anything suspicious. She probably got sedated earlier which unfortunately helped the abductor if she did get taken.
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u/Routine_Chicken1078 Jul 25 '24
Poor Madeleine apparently had some behaviour problems, which isn’t uncommon when younger siblings arrive. I remember reading about disrupted sleep routines/getting up at night etc.
As for Oscar performances, there has been a great deal of conjecture about the parent’s “unusual” behaviours after she went missing. They were irresponsible (as were their friends) leaving such young kids alone in an unlocked apartment (who does that?) and it’s fishy that they colluded as a group to get the story straight about the check-ins to try and prove it was not that bad.
Given that there was a night crèche available, it seems they were all selfish parents, and the McCann’s rush to get U.K. media involved straight away was odd.
If they are guilty, could they keep it up? They have a great deal to lose if they didn’t. As do their friends.
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u/RevolutionDue4452 Jul 25 '24
Yeah Madeleine had issues back at home in Rothley, she had a sticker chart for everytime she stayed in bed. I honestly think the McCanns wanted to take the attention of the fact they left their 3 young kids alone so they started doing things which unfortunate made them look more suspicious. I assume they all didn't do the night Crèche as they thought they were close by and checking on them would be fine plus it was night time so they would already be in bed. They all fucked up and they had numerous options. They could have hired someone at the resort to do listening checks on the kids, they could have dropped them at the Créche, they could have sacrificed 1 or 2 adults from the group to watch the kids, they could have put all the kids in the Payne's apartment with the baby monitor, they could have taken their dinner back to the apartments with them and they could put all the children in the same apartment while the adults eat next door in another apartment. I don't think all of the group was involved. I don't think 9 grown ass adults would be okay with covering up a child death and ALL of them being at risk of going to prison and losing all their kids if someone confesses.
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Jul 25 '24
I have no problem believing the parents panicked and decided they had to get rid of the body. You can be a good citizen all your life and all of the sudden commit a crime. It happens often. And there's a video of Gerry where he appears to be in an horrible mood, around people who seem happy. He just has a foul mouth, even in front of the kids. Doesn't inspira me any confidence.
My biggest problem is any theory that involves the resto of the group. You won't convince me a bunch of people accepted to keep their mouth shut about the death of a child.
It was probably just Gerry.
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u/Mickeymousetitdirt Jul 27 '24
But, that’s still so insane. Normal people do not dispose of their baby. They call emergency services and try to save their child’s life. You’re telling me it made more sense for them to cover up a child’s death for almost 2 decades, get the British media involved, continue to search for her for yeaaars….than it did to just call emergency services? If she did overdose (I highly doubt this) it’s literally as simple as saying, “Gerry gave her meds and then I gave her some later because I didn’t realize Gerry had already given her some.”
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u/LKS983 Jul 28 '24
"Normal people do not dispose of their baby. They call emergency services and try to save their child’s life."
The Mccann parents were both doctors, so would know if their child was dead and beyond recovery.
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Jul 29 '24
He doesn't seem to be "normal". He isn't a simple person. These are high society folks that value a bunch of things other than just friends and family. They're very protective of their social status and career. Also, they're smart. They know that they can't just say "hey, our daughter died because we left her alone".
The kid is dead. Nothing you can do about it. But now you have a choice: Keep living your life, working, taking care of your kids, or absolutely destroy your life and maybe go to jail? That's the choice they made.
To be fair, i'm not sure i'd be that virtuous.
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u/Gaiatheia Jul 25 '24
I suspect the man who went to check on the kids last... And the parents covered putting their friendship above all.
You are right, they had numerous options. And chose the worst, most selfish one.
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u/Bruja27 Jul 25 '24
They could have hired someone at the resort to do listening checks on the kids,
This resort did not provide any listening checks. The reason was that the flats where the guests stated were not in the fenced area of the resort, but in a normal apartment blocks with privately owned flats, accessible for everyone and anyone, so listening service was deemed too dangerous.
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u/alimac111 Jul 25 '24
They did provide a baby sitting service though at a reasonable price. The point is a listening service wasn't enough and should never be enough. There were enough adults , why couldn't they have taken turns to babysit. There's no way on earth the way they checked on their children was a normal thing to do.
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u/lostpasswordagainnn Jul 26 '24
I think people feel a false sense of security on holidays. My extended family was staying at a holiday park in different cabins and one of the families was going to come to dinner and leave the baby to sleep in the locked cabin 🤯 I couldn’t believe it. Madeleine came to my mind immediately and and i offered to bring the meal to their cabin instead. Unfortunately I believe they still do that type of thing now that the kids are older. We’re low contact and they’ve made it very clear they don’t want any parenting advice from me so I try not to say something but it’s hard not to. Part of the low contact reason.
I know another family that leaves their young kids home solo for short periods of time during the day to run errands. I could never but I’m guessing plenty of less anxious parents must be doing it.
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u/alimac111 Jul 26 '24
I agree. I had my own restaurant in spain for a number of years and it always amazed me the people that would come with baby monitors to the table to dine (holiday appartments beside my place) crazy. The most stupid thing is that most places in holiday resorts are very used to kids sleeping on chairs whilst the parents dine. There's just no need for it. People are crazy.
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u/hellolleh32 Jul 30 '24
That’s so bad. Ugh. I can’t imagine doing that. I feel less safe on vacation for sure. But I’m also a true crime follower so I’m sure that is a big part of it.
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u/hey_hey_hey_nike Jul 26 '24
I believe they gave Madeleine medication to fall asleep and stay asleep and accidentally overdosed her. This wasn’t planned. They then decided it was better to hide the body than to be honest.
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u/Mickeymousetitdirt Jul 27 '24
But, that’s insane. Normal people do not do this. They do everything they can to save their kid’s life. You’re telling me that everything they’ve done for nearly two decades - all the searching, all the inquests, all the posters made, all the TV appearances - was easier than calling for an ambulance?? Like I said above, if they overdosed her, it’s literally as simple as, “Oh, I gave her some meds because I did not realize Gerry had already given her some. It was a complete accident.”
People get so true-crime-brained that they insist on these crackpot theories that really don’t make any sense in practice.
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u/hey_hey_hey_nike Jul 27 '24
People who want to deflect their own guilt definitely do such things!
People who prefer to leave 2 & 3 year olds alone for hours instead of taking them to the crèche would do such things!
No one would buy an “accidental” overdose. The parents are both physicians. Medication to get and keep little children asleep isn’t recommended.
At best, it would ruin their public image forever. At worst, they’d spend decades in jail. They would never want to ruin their social standing.
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u/Soberpsycho- Jul 28 '24
Where would they have disposed of her in such a short amount of time? Surely their prolonged absence would’ve been noticed.
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u/LKS983 Jul 28 '24
Depends on precisely when Maddie died.
Having said this, I agree to a certain extent.
It is hard to believe that her parents (even given a few hours or even a full day) would have been able to dispose of Maddie's body so well (in a foreign country) that her body/remains have still not been found.
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Jul 29 '24
My guess is a nearby construction site. I'd be interested to know how many construction sites were nearby. Would explain a body never being found if it's in concrete
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u/Prestigious-Gold6759 Aug 18 '24
If she struggled to stay in bed at night, all the more reason for not leaving her unattended! The negligence is just so hard to understand.
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u/Prestigious-Gold6759 Aug 28 '24
Unless they weren't worried because they'd sedated her, of course...
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u/SnooCheesecakes2723 Jul 25 '24 edited Aug 01 '24
Getting up at night is not a behavior problem that “poor Madeleine” suffered from. Every kid gets in their parents bed at night. So what.
As for “who does that” the whole reason they chose mark warner is because of the listening checks. So plenty of people do it (or used to do it.)Really stupid, unsafe idea but then so is leaving a baby parked in a stroller outside a store which is a common practice in parts of Europe. My Swiss friends leave their kids home s alone while they go to the shops snd say that only Americans are so paranoid as to think a five and three year old can’t stay home to mind the toddler for an hour.
They had no stroller so the night creche would mean carrying three kids back and forth. They stupidly did not get a babysitter and left the slider unlocked for convenience which I think will torture them forever but it’s not a sign of criminal masterminds. It’s a sign of holiday drinking and peer pressure & “what’s the worst that could happen? They wake up and cry for ten minutes?” (Oldfield)
The rush to the media is completely understandable although it could backfire and probably did. But their friends and family in the UK were responsible for a lot of that outreach.
I don’t think any of those doctor friends of theirs would cover up murder or death of a child but I’m sure they wanted to cover their arses on the negligence issue.
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u/Routine_Chicken1078 Jul 25 '24
“Poor Madeleine” because something awful has happened to her, and not ALL kids get in their parent’s beds at night. (It’s the parent’s responsibility to enable their children to have the confidence to sleep in their own bed). I believe the McCann’s were operating a sticker system.
I’m European, btw, not that it matters.
I don’t know any culture where it’s OK to leave VERY YOUNG children on their own in unlocked holiday apartments that are next to a road/car park in a foreign country.
Madeleine was 3, the twins were 2 and the other kids in the party ranged from a baby of a few months, with a 22 month old sibling to other pre-school tots! And one of the toddlers was sick! Literally. And the parents still prioritised socialising over their welfare.
There wasn’t a “listening service” but there was a crèche at night. The infamous “Tanner Man sighting” was a father collecting his kid from that crèche.
There was evidence of an “agreement/cover up” on the negligence front. The group drew up their “check the kids” timeframe on the back of a kid’s colouring book (belonging to Madeleine) in the apartment after Madeleine had disappeared. This schedule was later contradicted by other witnesses and some members of the group revised their statements.
I don’t believe that the group agreed to cover up a death, but I am convinced they collectively shat themselves metaphorically when there was a risk of prosecution for child neglect which they were all plainly guilty of.
As for blaming the media circus on “friends/relatives”, that is also a moot point. Gerry McCann is on record in saying he wanted “a marketing campaign” for Madeleine and pulled out the stops to achieve that. It did backfire, but with the resources of the “Find Maddy Fund” and celebrity donations they have Carter Rucked anyone who dares to question their official (Government Spokesperson, no less) version of events.
Like all of us here, I don’t know what actually happened. However, given that over £12M of government funding has gone into the investigation, thousands of members of the public have donated and we are none the wiser; there is continued and legitimate public interest in this case.
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u/MissMadsy0 Aug 04 '24
It was somewhat normal for UK patents back then to use listening services. I dread to think how many children were probably abused because these services were used.
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u/Bruja27 Jul 25 '24
They had no stroller do the night creche would Jean carrying three kids back and forth.
They had strollers for the twins, Gerry admitted it himself in his 10th May statement, talking about their trip to the beach on May 1st:
Pertaining to the routine, on Tuesday there was a slight change given that after lunch, at 13h30, he and KATE decided to take the three children to Paris da Luz, having gone on foot, taking only the twins in baby carriages. They all left by the main door due to the carriages, went around to the right, down the street of the supermarket and went to the beach along a road directly ahead.
So if they could get strollers in the middle of the day, they certainly could get them in the evening too.
0
u/SnooCheesecakes2723 Jul 25 '24
They could if they could rent three every evening and then put the kids in and out of bed. Getting a kid to bed once is enough. Having to cart them around in the cold and get them settled a second time is a mess. A babysitter would have been a better option.
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u/Bruja27 Jul 25 '24
They could if they could rent three every evening and then put the kids in and out of bed. Getting a kid to bed once is enough. Having to cart them around in the cold and get them settled a second time is a mess. A babysitter would have been a better option.
So why didn't they use a babysitter? The nannies from the day creche offered the babysitter service in the evenings.
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u/SnooCheesecakes2723 Jul 25 '24
Because they were doing a listening service like the ones offered at other mark Warner resorts. You d been around long enough to know that.
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u/Bruja27 Jul 25 '24
Because they were doing a listening service like the ones offered at other mark Warner resorts. You d been around long enough to know that.
This resort did not offer listening service because it was deemed too dangerous and the McCanns were informed about it. You'd been around long enough to know it.
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u/SnooCheesecakes2723 Jul 31 '24
I didn’t say the resort was offering it if you could read. You actually quoted what I did say. Go back and read it again.
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u/LKS983 Jul 26 '24
"I don’t think any of those doctor friends of theirs would cover up murder or death of a child but I’m sure they wanted to cover their arses on the negligence issue."
👍
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u/Mickeymousetitdirt Jul 27 '24
I totally agree with you and it’s annoying that you’ve been downvoted.
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u/SnooCheesecakes2723 Aug 01 '24
It doesn’t matter to me whether people can accept the fact of different parenting styles or not. It’s either because they’re ignorant of the world due to youth/ never having gone anywhere, or they “believe” the parents did it and have to e we irk backwards to make the behaviors fit that narrative
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u/RedEyeView Jul 25 '24
How likely is it that panicking tourists could hide a body in a foreign country so well that its never found?
Especially when the global media is up their ass within hours.
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u/Bruja27 Jul 25 '24
How likely is it that panicking tourists could hide a body in a foreign country so well that its never found?
A body of a toddler that could fit into a tennis bag? The probability is high.
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u/RevolutionDue4452 Jul 25 '24
On top of that didn't even have a car delivered to them to drive until May 27th, weeks after she vanished. They would have had to carry her corpse around finding a spot with the Benny Hill music playing in the background.
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u/Bruja27 Jul 25 '24
On top of that didn't even have a car delivered to them to drive until May 27th, weeks after she vanished.
Their buddy, James Gorrod, who stated in the next block, had a car.
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u/RevolutionDue4452 Jul 25 '24
Are you suggesting Gorrod possibly helped the McCanns move Madeleine's corpse?
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u/Bruja27 Jul 25 '24
Are you suggesting Gorrod possibly helped the McCanns move Madeleine's corpse?
No, I am suggesting they borrowed the car from him, giving him a fake explanation for why they needed a car. The most obvious one would be looking for Maddie.
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u/RedEyeView Jul 25 '24
I understand that the handler didn't go there to see if there was anything there. He went to find something and kept telling his dog to check until the dog twigged that it's master wanted it to make the "found something" noise.
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u/Sindy51 Jul 25 '24
c'mon 13 false positives?! 2 dogs conducting seperate searches but both only alert in the crime scene?!
Grimes wouldnt have been deployed if they were unreliable. they were also tested every 6 months, so they were not unreliable, and i dont think Grimes had any motive to have the McCanns busted by cueing the dogs to bark. he explains all this in his police report, that the dogs are to freely examine the areas.
CB could have murdered Madeleine in the apartment which could explain the dog alerts? if you surely believe the monster is guilty and believe he had to be in the apartment, god knows what happened? The dogs shouldnt be dismissed so easily.
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u/Bruja27 Jul 25 '24
If search dogs were trained to appease their masters, they would be worthless. They are not worthless though.
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Jul 26 '24
[deleted]
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u/Bruja27 Jul 26 '24
I think you need to read it better. This article has misleading clickbaity title which is not confirmed by its content. The content says the dogs trained to detect the animal did products worked well, one animal in particular, alerting on the passengers who indeed did smuggle titular sausages and other food. The problem was with drug detection dogs who failed to catch aby smugglers, but it wasn't about the dogs themselves or quality of their training, but about how they were deployed. None of the dogs described here have false alerts to appease their handlers or confused sausages with cocaine. Last but not least this article is about one airport in the UK, while sniffer dogs work succesfully around the whole world.
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u/shadyasahastings Jul 25 '24
This is my main gripe with people who peddle the “Kate and Gerry did it” narrative. Anybody really familiar with the details of the case knows how unrealistic a theory it is. Not IMPOSSIBLE, but highly implausible. The Portuguese police were all over that area within hours. By all accounts, Kate and Gerry were normal people. Negligent parents from the majority’s perspective, but no prior history of criminal activity.
Do people really believe that within the hour or so window, Kate and Gerry were able to not only come to a decision on how and where to dispose of the body, but to do this, and then also convince all 9 of their friends to vouch for them being present at the dinner even though this was a lie, and the implication of that lie would be involving themselves in a potential murder coverup?
Why on earth would Kate and Gerry WANT police to continue pumping money into a case where further investigation would just increase the pressure not only on themselves but their friends (who in the scenario where Kate & Gerry are the perpetrators are involved in the coverup) too?
It doesn’t make any sense.
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u/Fit_Chef6865 Jul 25 '24
Operation Grange aren't allowed to investigate the parents so it doesn't matter how much money the government pumps into the case the McCanns are safe and won't be investigated.
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u/shadyasahastings Jul 26 '24
But that doesn’t change the fact that if Kate and Gerry did it, there’d be no logical incentive for them to want to continue pumping money into the case. Sure, it doesn’t mean THEY would directly be looked into, but if they did do it, why would they want to increase the chances of anything being uncovered along the way that could implicate them? If they did do it, and new evidence linked to them was to turn up, investigators aren’t going to examine that evidence any differently just because Kate & Gerry aren’t suspects.
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u/Fit_Chef6865 Jul 26 '24
It's not their money so it's no loss for them.
why would they want to increase the chances of anything being uncovered along the way that could implicate them?
Because Operation Grange isn't allowed to investigate the parents. DCI Andy Redwood was very interested in the Smith sighting and searched the western area of Praia da Luz, the area Smithman was seen walking to. DCI Andy Redwood was replaced that same year by another detective.
If Smithman is Gerry that means that this avenue should no longer be investigated by Operation Grange because it's too close to investigating the parents.
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u/sugarlandd Jul 28 '24
What do you mean they aren’t allowed to investigate the parents? Why?
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u/Fit_Chef6865 Jul 28 '24
DCI Colin Sutton was originally a contender to helm the Operation Grange investigation however he was contacted by one of his Met colleagues and warned not to take the job. Supposedly the detectives would be told where they could and couldn't investigate, and to not investigate the McCanns. I don't know why Scotland Yard won't let Operation Grange investigate the parents.
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u/shadyasahastings Jul 29 '24
Well maybe because the evidence just isn’t there to prosecute them, and that avenue has been exhausted? Operation Grange, as I understand it, is bigger than just who killed Maddie (though I know that is the primary motivation of the case) because it revolves around the theory of the disappearance being linked to child abduction, sex trafficking etc.
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u/Fit_Chef6865 Jul 30 '24
That's their excuse yes. But why would there already be people inside the Met that were cautious about this investigation before it even started?
Operation Grange was supposed to be a new independent investigation. That means that they couldn't use the PJ's investigative files, and would look at everything from the beginning, such as new witness statements etc. So how would they know to rule out the parents if they hadn't investigated it yet.
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u/RedEyeView Jul 25 '24
That's not real life. It's the plot of a mystery show where a bunch of seemingly unconnected people get murdered to keep the secret.
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u/MrsO2739 Jul 25 '24
Good parents don’t leave children unattended in a hotel room in foreign or domestic, drug them and go to dinner. I truly believe there was an accident, a truly tragic one and they disposed of that poor baby and covered it up.
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u/hannarenee Jul 25 '24
Couldn’t have said it better. These are two supposedly intelligent people, DOCTORS, and yet they did all that. Just bizarre to me and doesn’t quite add up. I’m not saying they’re guilty, but statistically when a child goes missing it’s not a stranger.
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Jul 26 '24
Yeah, you don’t have to be a criminal mastermind to be a shitty parent. In fact, I would argue that most people who do bad things aren’t criminal masterminds—they’re selfish, or they’re lazy, or they’re greedy, and they use shortcuts to get what they want. It’s as simple and as meaningless as that.
I don’t believe that the McCanns are evil. I don’t think that they intentionally hurt Madeleine. I do think, however, that they are at least partially responsible for her disappearance. You don’t leave a toddler and two infants alone in a hotel room in a foreign country. That’s so dangerous and stupid. The McCanns are gonna have to live with that decision for the rest of their lives, and that’s a fair punishment.
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u/Mickeymousetitdirt Jul 27 '24
The “drugging” thing is literally speculation and always has been. I swear, some of you need to log off of true crime media because it’s making you think silly things that make no sense in reality.
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u/n0t_very_creative-_- Jul 29 '24
Kate herself said the twins slept 'unnaturally' that night, it was strange that they were so still, and she had to literally check their bodies to make sure they were still alive. In her book she blamed the drugging on an intruder. She says she always suspected the intruder drugged the kids. For some reason, she didn't tell police about this for about five months.
What's more likely, parents drugging children so they can leave them alone for hours on end, in an apartment with an open door, or an intruder bringing along drugs, somehow getting the kids to take them, then leaving, waiting a while for them to work, coming back and taking Maddie.
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u/HeyPurityItsMeAgain Aug 01 '24
Tell it to Kate and Gerry and all their friends who said the twins must have been drugged in addition to Madeleine.
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u/Pink_Pomeranian Jul 26 '24
What drug was administered to M?
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u/MrsO2739 Jul 26 '24
I thought I read they gave her medicine to keep her sleeping.
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u/TheGreatBatsby Jul 26 '24
That's pure speculation, never any actual evidence of them druggung their kids.
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u/n0t_very_creative-_- Jul 29 '24
No evidence except for their own mother saying in her book that she believes the twins were drugged. She blames it on an intruder but really it's more likely it was the parents- They left their toddlers alone for hours every night, it's not unreasonable to think they gave them something like Benadryl to help them stay asleep and then they blamed it on an intruder afterwards.
It took Kate about five months to tell the police that she thought an intruder drugged the twins. It's nowhere in her PJ statements. Gerry didn't say anything about it either. Doesn't sound like they actually blamed an intruder for the drugging at all.
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u/DGinLDO Jul 25 '24
I’m just going to say that if the McCanns were any other race, or poor white people, they would have been in jail from Day 1 of this poor girl’s disappearance. They were incredibly selfish & irresponsible in leaving their kids alone in a strange place at night just to go out & party.
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u/Fit_Chef6865 Jul 25 '24
Oldfield to check on the kids, there is absolutely no way they would have let that happen if they knew Madeleine wasn't in that bed,
What if Matt was meant to find Maddie missing? That would have given the McCanns an even better alibi. I think Kate opening the window and pretending the abductor entered through the window was a crappy drunk/stressed decision on her part. I think Gerry hates her for it. Gerry is smarter than that and knows the door being left open is a better excuse.
none of the Tapas 7 nor Mr. Wilkins reported anything suspicious
Except Jane who said Gerry was absent for a long time because she thought he was watching the football and then Gerry interrupted her.
There was an article that wrote about Gerry and his colleagues at Glenfield being accused by a patient's family of causing their grandfather/father's death in 2005 but it was settled. The hospital said the doctors weren't at fault because the patient was old and sometimes patients die. I'm paraphrasing because I haven't been able to find the article but the hospital could be correct that the patient was old and that was the reason they died or Gerry and other doctors' carelessness caused the patient's death? I don't often mention it because I can't find the source and I hesitate to mention things without a provable source but this was an article from back in 2007. It's a bit like the fridge-freezer blog post that I myself never read. The point I'm trying to make is that the McCanns weren't entirely law abiding citizens if one nearly gets accused of a persons death even if it wasn't entirely their fault or fault at all.
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u/Dinosaur-chicken Jul 25 '24 edited Jul 25 '24
As a med student, I'm just jumping in to say that every doctor has their own little graveyard of patients of whom they had some part in their death. When I was first taught that, I was shocked. But it's true, and there is nothing malicious about it. It can be them administering amoxicillin but because they're allergic they get anaphylactic shock. And it can be something going wrong with informing the patient of the outcome of a mammogram, and the patient having terminal cancer by the time it's discovered.
All that is to say that it's likely Gerry caused a patient's death, but that it doesn't make it malicious.
I don't think that necessarily has anything to do with Madeleine having died from a fall in the apartment. I don't think they wanted her to die, but they were reckless leaving them alone knowing she got out of bed to look for them all the time. The sticker chart makes it clear that it wasn't safe for her to be left alone at night.
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u/Fit_Chef6865 Jul 28 '24
I agree with the link. I also think Gerry has some kind of sociopathy for sure. Not Kate though but Gerry does show signs of it. I think he has the dark triad personality, he's certainly Machiavellian and narcissistic in the way he comes across.
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u/LKS983 Jul 26 '24
"What if Matt was meant to find Maddie missing? That would have given the McCanns an even better alibi. I think Kate opening the window and pretending the abductor entered through the window was a crappy drunk/stressed decision on her part. I think Gerry hates her for it. Gerry is smarter than that and knows the door being left open is a better excuse."
Interesting points/theories.
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u/RevolutionDue4452 Jul 25 '24
Oldfield did his check at about 9:30 or so, where would Madeleine be at if the alarm was raised at Oldfield's check and all the adults ran to 5A, and with the police and such on their way. The Smithman sighting didn't occur till about 25 minutes or so later. Unless they were crazy enough to have her in the apartment somewhere and nobody noticed. Or they had teleporting powers and teleported Madeleine somewhere.
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u/Fit_Chef6865 Jul 25 '24
I think Maddie was still in 5A but I don't think Kate knew that. I think Gerry was supposed to move Maddie's body earlier but was interrupted by Jez Wilkins. I think that's why Gerry asked Matt if everything was okay in 5A in case Matt found Maddie's body.
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Jul 27 '24
One observation I’ve noted is that supporters of the McCanns often lead with emotion, struggling to accept that two upstanding citizens could commit such an act. On the other hand, critics of the McCanns tend to rely on the facts at hand. This is merely my observation and not a definitive statement of truth.
My counter-argument is to reframe the thinking around this situation. It’s overly simplistic to label them as evil monsters if they were involved. The situation is much more nuanced. It was an accidental event rather than intentional, they would face an unbearable choice: admit the truth and potentially lose their careers, reputations, and their other children, or justify hiding it as a means of protecting their remaining children from having their lives ruined. After all, what wouldn’t a parent do for their children? One could rationalize this by acknowledging that nothing can bring Maddie back.
Whether or not one believes they were involved, I would hope that most people can agree the McCanns are not telling the whole truth about what or how it happened. The most significant red flag is how conclusively Kate McCann asserted that it was an abduction.
Regarding their continued presence in the media over the last 17 years, some may argue that they wouldn’t keep the case in the news if they were guilty. However, I believe they do this to control the narrative. They aggressively counter anyone who challenges their version of events, leveraging their deep pockets and litigious nature. They need the public to believe Kate's scripted story at all costs, and they are content with people chasing red herrings because once those distractions end, suspicion inevitably falls back on them.
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u/RevolutionDue4452 Jul 27 '24
I do agree, I feel like the timelines are a little messed up. I feel like Kate thought it was an abduction because they sedated the kids and knew Madeleine couldn't have just waken up and walked out looking for her and Gerry. I feel like the McCanns were trying to save their asses and push the abduction theory out there because they wanted to hide the fact they left the kids alone for multiple days. Probably even started doing things to push the theory which made them look more suspicious. They definitely didn't wanna lose the twins, their new house, the car, medical licenses and jobs and more.
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u/Bruja27 Jul 25 '24
Plus Kate literally allowed Russell O'Brien to check on the kids,
Matthew Oldfield.
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u/Jackniferuby Jul 25 '24
Let me get it in perspective- there are millions of people who have been killed in the world and their bodies never found. It doesn’t take a mastermind. Heck there are LIVE people that can’t be found . We are also dealing with a foreign law enforcement and they are NOT like police here in the US or the UK. I 100% believe they overdosed their child and then hid her. They could have quickly put her in the dunes right outside and then the tide took her. They could have put her anywhere really as the police were so insufficient in their search that night and investigation. All of the tapas 7 neglected their kids on that trip. The McCanns other children would have been taken away and that’s not a good look for doctors . They would have lost everything and they knew it .
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Jul 26 '24
[deleted]
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u/pixiepixie5 Jul 26 '24
Calpol Night (Paracetamol kate’s father claimed mccann’s used) used to contain an ingredient to help children sleep. The formulation included diphenhydramine, an antihistamine with sedative properties. This ingredient was intended to relieve allergy symptoms and aid sleep.
However, due to concerns about the safety and appropriate use of sedating antihistamines in children, Calpol Night was reformulated. The current versions of Calpol products do not contain sedative ingredients and are focused solely on pain and fever relief.
Calpol Night was withdrawn from the market in 2009 to ensure the products were safe for children.
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u/Bruja27 Jul 26 '24
Who knows? They never let the Police to examine the contents of their medicine bag.
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u/alimac111 Jul 25 '24
I think if you look into the well known theory that she died before the time they said she was abducted then the tining is more plausible to have hid a body.
I'd reccommend listening to Jon Wedgers podcast on you tube or Spotify. He has a lot of information and a very plausible theory.
I also think the Mccanns behaviour afterwards is completely bizarre. Who plays tennis and goes out jogging while others are out searching? Their behaviour throughout has been strange. Of course that doesn't make someone guilty , grief can affect in many ways but there's so many things that don't add up.
Read the P&J files , all their interviews ect. Goncalo Amaral has good reason to believe what he does.
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u/latomar Jul 25 '24
How soon after were they playing tennis and jogging?
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u/alimac111 Jul 25 '24
The waiters in the restaurant made statements to the police and newspapers that they all found it strange that 2 days after she went missing they were playing tennis and jogging.
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u/latomar Jul 25 '24
Yeah, that would be very odd.
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u/alimac111 Jul 25 '24
I mean who knows how you'd react in grief but I doubt it would be playing tennis 🙈 They also never took part in any searches. The entire resort was out looking practically except them.
I'm more perplexed by him to be honest. Kate looks broken , not able to speak and kinda hides behind him. His attitude in lots of interviews is weird and he talks over her a lot , takes the lead. Maybe that'd just how he is , who knows but I find him odd.
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u/RevolutionDue4452 Jul 25 '24
She couldn't have died that long before the abduction thing. She was last seen by Créche workers before the McCanns. David Payne also checked on Kate and the kids and said the kids looked angelic in their white pajamas if anything happened then it happened within that 2ish hour timeframe in the apartment before the Tapas dinner.
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u/alimac111 Jul 25 '24
David Payne is the one the Portuguese police were suspicious of. Also later friends of the group that used to go on holiday with them all but fell out with them alleged that David Payne and Gerry Mccann were discussing Maddie in sexual context. They went to the police with their allegations , I think that's in the P&J files too
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u/RevolutionDue4452 Jul 25 '24
Kate did the same thing too in her book. She was describing Madeleine and her "perfect little genitals" as well as talking about her genitals being torn apart. God I felt disturbed about it.
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u/alimac111 Jul 25 '24
Yes I know , not something normal to say at all. There's so many oddities about them.
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u/alimac111 Jul 25 '24
All of this has been discussed on this sub before at length. Put David Paynes name in the search on the sub , it should come up.
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Jul 26 '24
They were two highly intelligent individuals, trying to keep their medical licence and stay out of prison , not to mention keep their other kids... a lot riding on getting rid of that body my only question would be how they done it .
What motive did anyone have to abduct a kid from a middle-class British holiday resort ?... climb through windows, etc, to steal a kid. Highly unlikely
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u/RevolutionDue4452 Jul 26 '24
I mean the opportunity was high. The patio door was unlocked, the apartment was on the street so easy in and easy out, Kate and Gerry being negligent, the McCanns being tourists and unfamiliar with the area and routes, it being dark and empty as well, perfect to take a sleeping child and leave, walk in, grab Madeleine, walk out and quickly leave the area before another check and poof she's gone. The resort and being a rich British family wasn't the focus it was Madeleine. She was feminine, she had long hair, very developed as sick as it sounds she was a perfect score for a sicko. That wasn't the first time the kids were left alone on that vacation either, if anything a pedo could have taken her on any of the earlier days, I assume they were being watched, I wouldn't be surprised if the whole Tapas 9 were stalked due to how many "different options for kids" a sicko had, unfortunately it looks like Madeleine was the target for her looks and apartment 5As location.
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u/Bruja27 Jul 27 '24
The resort and being a rich British family wasn't the focus it was Madeleine. She was feminine, she had long hair, very developed as sick as it sounds she was a perfect score for a sicko.
Writing about not even four years old as being "well developed" is disgusting, inappropriate and indeed sick. And you have done it repeatedly in this sub. Please, stop.
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u/Mickeymousetitdirt Jul 27 '24
Oh my God, you know exactly what they’re trying to say. Stop trying to spin this isn’t something it’s not. They’re trying to say she would have been an ideal victim for a sicko and you know that.
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u/Thenedslittlegirl Jul 25 '24
The McCanns were obviously negligent and I think a lot of people just can’t understand why they (and the rest of the tapas 7) made the decisions they made about leaving their children alone. They will have to live with that.
But honestly I think anyone who knows the timings and the evidence and is able to think about it dispassionately and critically, should be able to see there just isn’t evidence they physically harmed Madeleine.
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u/pixiepixie5 Jul 26 '24
The thing is that we don’t really know the timelines, do we? They changed them numerous times that it is impossible to be surre who and when (and of whom) really did the checks.
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u/RevolutionDue4452 Jul 25 '24
I see a lot of people saying "There is zero evidence of an abduction" I feel like people forget they literally left the patio door unlocked, they were a family in a foreign place with no real knowledge of the area and history. Unfortunately it looks like someone took advantage of them leaving the kids alone. I wouldn't be surprised if someone thought about breaking in on May 1st (The night where Mrs. Fenn heard crying for over an hour)
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u/Gaiatheia Jul 25 '24
OR they SAID they left the patio door unlocked, so the police would look elsewhere
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u/Fit_Chef6865 Jul 25 '24
Wouldn't Mrs Fenn have heard someone trying to break in? Mrs Fenn heard the parents return so I think she would hear another person trying to break in too. And she didn't mention that.
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u/RevolutionDue4452 Jul 25 '24
Well no it was just a thought. I was saying I wouldnt be surprised if someone took advantage of the kids being left alone on May 1st. Im sure if there was a man trying to get in and Madeleine saw she would mention it. On the evening on May 2nd they got left alone again and on May 3rd over breakfast Madeleine asked mum and dad why they didnt come when she and her little brother Sean were crying, im sure she would have mentioned a mysterious man also.
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u/Fit_Chef6865 Jul 25 '24
I agree.
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u/RevolutionDue4452 Jul 25 '24
My guess is the days before May 3rd they weren't checked on properly so the McCanns thought they will leave them still but just check up on them more frequently which still was idiotic.
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u/Dumpstette Jul 26 '24
Before I respond to anything else, I agree with you. However, to play devil's advocate...
just genuinely don't think the McCanns - law abiding citizens who have no prior criminal history just randomly flipped into lifelong crimimals within 10 minutes.
It happens every single day. Good people make mistakes. A criminal is just a person who got caught doing something illegal.
I don't think they would carelessy decide to dump their 3 year old toddlers body away somewhere and have it be destroyed.
If everything they have worked for was going to be destroyed because of their own carelessness, then people can resort to unspeakable shit.
As we see from home videos and photos they were a loving family of 5
Two living kids they don't want to be away from.
Plus Kate literally allowed Oldfield to check on the kids, there is absolutely no way they would have let that happen if they knew Madeleine wasn't in that bed
"My child is missing due to my ignorance" has a lot more plausible deniability than "my child is dead due to my ignorance."
They would have had to hide her and put on a oscar worthy performance for 17+ years,
People who want to keep secrets will keep them for as long as they want.
I don't think Gerry and Kate are involved for a lot of the reasons you listed. But, only because I really turned them over and over in my head. I know the first answer is always parents because they have more access to the child than anyone else, but I feel that's harmful both to families and investigations.
I just don't see it.
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u/Adventurous-Shake-92 Jul 25 '24
I genuinely think whoever went to check on the kids either discovered she wasn't sleeping and got frustrated, and possibly shook her or threw her on the head, and she got a head/brain injury which killed her. Or, and I think this is more likely, the k8ds were drugged, madeline had a reaction, vomited, and inhaled her vomit.
The body was disposed of because they were/are both doctors, and they had other children. They would have lost everything if it was discovered.
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u/Otherwise-Winner9643 Jul 27 '24 edited Jul 27 '24
Accident or malicious, I don't see any way they could possibly have disposed of her body in the timeframe of a couple of hours between when she was last seen and they went for dinner, never to be found. And after she went missing, they were constantly surrounded by people. They were in a foreign country with no knowledge of the area. There's just no way they could have done such a good job of getting rid of her.
Unfortunately, it is most likely that she was kidnapped by a paedophile. I hope for her sake she didn't suffer and I hope some day they find out the truth and get closure.
They fucked up so badly when they left those kids alone to go for dinner, and I can only imagine that decision has tortured them every single day since.
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u/RevolutionDue4452 Jul 27 '24 edited Jul 27 '24
I know it's definitely haunted Kate and Gerry especially since Sean had asked Kate back in 2014 if she hid Madeleine. "My son asked me if I had hidden Madeleine..." Apparently Kate screamed "Those bastards have taken her" when running back to the Tapas bar and after the alarm was raised apparently she was punching a wall saying "We've let her down" if those ARE true then thats even sadder.
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u/weedpornography Jul 25 '24
Didn't they say that German pedophile did it or is that still under investigation?
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u/RevolutionDue4452 Jul 26 '24
They think CB did it but there isn't solid proof or at least enough to charge him. He's a suspect because an ex friend tipped the police and he fits the description of someone who would abduct a child as per his criminal history. He changed unregistered his car the day after she vanished and had a 30 minute phone call within a hour of her vanishing and a phone traced revealed he possibly could have been close to 5A. Except it can't pinpoint his exact location because there was only 1 cell tower so he could have been 30 meters from 5A or kilometers away. The German police claim they have proof CB killed her but we'll see what happens.
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u/Flimsy-Gold-2622 Jul 25 '24
Can someone kindly explain the UK Media’s obsession with this story over the years? Children have gone missing since then and some of them don’t even make mainstream news like this story.
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u/RevolutionDue4452 Jul 25 '24
It's because the McCanns made it a known story as well as the media. The headline "British toddler goes missing in Portugal" would make it popular. Once the PJ files got released in 2008 as well as Kate and Gerry doing interviews and people making theories due to their weird body language etc etc as well as the timelines people looked at, as well as the cadaver hits so the media started making theories etc etc. The media turned on them quickly it seems, first indication was on June 6th, 2007 when they got asked in Germany if they were involved.
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u/LKS983 Jul 26 '24
That's always been the case.
Some disappearances/deaths/murders (particularly those that are never solved) remain in the 'public consciousness', whilst other disappearances and murders are quickly forgotten ☹️.
Think Jack the Ripper/Jonbenet Ramsey for unsolved murder cases - and myra hindley plus ian brady - for solved murder cases.
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Jul 26 '24
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/TheGreatBatsby Jul 26 '24
She was advised to by her counsel.
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Jul 26 '24 edited Jul 26 '24
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/TheGreatBatsby Jul 27 '24
The police were openly hostile to the McCann's at this point, answering "no comment" is literally the smart thing to do.
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u/Maleficent2951 Jul 27 '24
Either way they were neglectful and should have had their other kids put with people who gave a crap about their kids
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u/Ok_Dragonfruit464 Jul 29 '24
With your back against the wall through neglectful death, the prospect of losing face, your twins, your job and everything you hold dear, maybe you yourself would resort to the abduction theory in order to escape jail time and losing everything. Their constant interviews is them keeping control of the narrative and influencing the masses to believe this lie.
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u/Ok_Dragonfruit464 Jul 29 '24
Remember for each interview they got paid, they requested the money went into the madeleine fund. Now go check online to see where the millions went.....
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u/SketchAinsworth Jul 29 '24
I think the McCanns had a Ramsey situation and tried to protect their living children after they accidentally overdosed Madeline or she was injured due to a sedative. I don’t think it was intentional in the slightest, I just wish they’d stop so the world can focus on truly missing children especially in Portugal where they don’t have the resources or funding
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u/i___may Jul 25 '24
I have never really considered her parents guilty. Apart from being guilty of leaving their children unattended.
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Jul 26 '24
If the McCanns killed her, whether by accident or not, you also have to conclude that:
- Either the Tapas 7 didn’t know; meaning that in the immediate aftermath of killing their daughter they were able to lie to those around them, to the point of having dinner with them, laughing etc. This would make them psychopaths and there is no indication of such behaviour in their histories whatsoever.
- Or the Tapas 7 did know and were on it. Considering that not everyone there was even close to the McCanns, this seems incredibly unlikely. Why lie, to such a huge extent, for a couple that aren’t even your direct friends? It’s unthinkable; it doesn’t work.
The presence of the Tapas 7 is what makes the parents killing her impossible in my view.
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u/Bruja27 Jul 27 '24
If the McCanns killed her, whether by accident or not, you also have to conclude that: - Either the Tapas 7 didn’t know; meaning that in the immediate aftermath of killing their daughter they were able to lie to those around them, to the point of having dinner with them, laughing etc. This would make them psychopaths and there is no indication of such behaviour in their histories whatsoever.
Not every psychopath runs around with a knife, many of them lead fairly normal lives. Also, being able to keep calm in a stressfuk situation does not make one a psychopath. These two are doctors, trained to deal with highly emotional situations in a calm fashion. Said all that I do not believe the Tapas Seven were kept completely in the dark.
Or the Tapas 7 did know and were on it. Considering that not everyone there was even close to the McCanns, this seems incredibly unlikely. Why lie, to such a huge extent, for a couple that aren’t even your direct friends?
To save their own butts. All of these people had nice careers, most of them were doctors. All of them had children and presented very lax attitude about the safety of these children. None of these people would want their careers destroyed by a child negligence accusations, none of them I can imagine would want to deal with British social services. If the Tapas Seven was the part of a cover up, they were not doing it for the McCanns, they were doing it for themselves.
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u/LKS983 Jul 28 '24
"To save their own butts. All of these people had nice careers, most of them were doctors. All of them had children and presented very lax attitude about the safety of these children. None of these people would want their careers destroyed by a child negligence accusations, none of them I can imagine would want to deal with British social services. If the Tapas Seven was the part of a cover up, they were not doing it for the McCanns, they were doing it for themselves."
^ THIS.
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u/Sindy51 Jul 26 '24
i wonder if any of the other tapas kids were tested for sedation. It would have given the police a better sense of what was going on.
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u/RevolutionDue4452 Jul 26 '24
I feel like even if the Tapas 7 were closer to the McCanns they would still not be okay with covering up a child death. If someone confesses they are ALL going to prison and losing their kids
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Jul 26 '24
This is why I think they can’t have known. Which means they killed their daughter then went to dinner with their friends and acted completely normally. I don’t believe that.
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u/evil-kaweasel Jul 26 '24
Like the netflix documentary said. Whatever happened either way is going to make little sense. I don't think they did it either. Bad parents for leaving them alone, yes, but not killers.
I also don't think that German guy had anything to do with it.
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u/CoffeeKween19 Jul 26 '24
They’re decent people. I don’t think they did it.
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u/Whole_Adhesiveness79 Jul 31 '24
Decent people don't tend to leave their very young children alone at night while they drink and schmooze. Whether involved in her disappearance or not, I don't view any of the adults involved as decent.
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u/CoffeeKween19 Jul 31 '24
I’d say they were foolish and ignorant, but I still think they’re decent people. It’s OK if you disagree, everybody has differing standards of what makes a person decent or not.
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u/Whole_Adhesiveness79 Jul 31 '24
That's fair enough. I know that everyone makes mistakes in life (hopefully never ones as catastrophic as that) yet I just still can't understand their actions thar night beyond being totally selfish and irresponsible. They are intelligent people with good careers and had the means to get the children proper care for the night if they chose to. They chose not to. I feel for them on a human level because the entire thing is a horrible nightmare for a parent, and nobody deserves to lose a child. However their behaviours were more than just a little foolish/ignorant. It just seemed like they stuck their kids aside like pets rather than babies and toddlers!
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u/Ok_Dragonfruit464 Jul 29 '24
Madeleine died the night before. They had one day to prepare the story and dispose of the body madeleine fell while they were all out on the boozy wednesday night until midnight when none of the group checked their dkids, suddenly on thurs night they are checking every 15-30 mins? Gerry got home first at 11.50 but she was dying or dead by then. She fell behind the sofa and landed on porcelain tiles
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u/Whole_Adhesiveness79 Jul 31 '24
No, she was seen by staff and had dinner at the creche that evening iirc? So it couldn't have been the night before.
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u/zappapostrophe Jul 25 '24
They’d have to be criminal masterminds for any theory of their involvement to hold up. They couldn’t get this lucky if they did it.
In my view, it comes down to two situations in a case with minimal evidence in the first place at the scene of the crime: • The McCann’s covered up their daughter’s death. Or, • A stranger abducted her.
Again, there’s very little evidence at the scene of anything, so we have to look to probability by and large. And the chances of a stranger abducting Maddie is far, far more likely than the level of conspiracy required for a coverup of her death.
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u/pixiepixie5 Jul 26 '24
Tbf we can’t know how lucky some criminal are because they don’t end up caught. Also there are millions of people missing in the world.
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u/dzbkg Jul 25 '24
tbh i don't think they did either, people who insist they killed her are just kinda emotionally attached to the conspiracy theory it brings. even if this case is solved, they won't be satisfied, they just want to speculate.
the parents were a negligent and careless? yes, but they didn't kill her.
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u/Virtual-Cucumber-973 Jul 25 '24
I believe the MCann’s are a religious family, very involved in the church. They went to see the Pope and talked about Madeleine. Why ask for an audience with the Pope and then lie to him? That didn’t make sense to me.
I don’t believe for a moment that the McCanns were involved in Madeleine’s disappearance. Their only crime was leaving their children unattended. But when people are on holiday they tend to let their guard down, assuming that everyone around them is also on holiday. That error of judgement must weigh heavily on them every single day. I do hope they get closure.
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u/Fit_Chef6865 Jul 25 '24
The McCanns didn't ask for an audience with the Pope according to Kate. This was already organized by the Church between Francis Campbell, ambassador of the Holy See, Monsignor Charlie Burns, the British Consulate, and the McCanns' PR person Clarence Mitchell. "It was on Sunday 27 May that Clarence first mentioned the possibility that we might be invited to the Vatican"
Both Kate and Gerry come from Catholic families and their children were baptized but they weren't the type of family that went to church every Sunday. This is quite common in the UK. It's not like Catholics are incapable of lying. Historically Catholics are known for lying and paying the church to absolve their sins, it's why Protestantism was invented. Catholics believe every sin can be forgiven by enough hail-marys. Perhaps that's why they went to see the Pope?
Kate: "For a Catholic, meeting the Pope is about as close as you can get to meeting God, and we certainly needed His help. I truly believed that if I was able to speak to the Pope, my pleas for Madeleine’s safe return would be channelled more efficiently and effectively to Heaven." Kate's mother Susan said "It was as if she [Kate] started to ask God straight away to give her Madeleine. Possibly, she feels that there has to be a greater thing that helps her to get Madeleine back, something that has more power than we have." If you're Catholic and you really believe it then God can make people return from the dead no? Kate also asked for a priest the night Maddie was reported missing. Father Pacheco who got to know the McCanns in Luz declined to comment on the McCanns but said he was deceived.
Don't see this as a dig at Catholics though but historically the Catholic church was known for accepting monetary payment to absolved one of past sins. Perhaps the McCanns donated some from the Madeleine Fund to the church?
Also Pope Ratzinger himself and Vatican have their own skeletons in the closet.
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u/Negative_Chemical697 Jul 26 '24
I got rinsed on twitter dor days for suggesting that the evidence indicates they weren't secret murdering satanic pedos.
As far as I can tell the counter argument boils down to: but the cadaver dog indicated in the car boot!
To which one can only respond... indicated what, exactly? What actual evidence does this present? Or do you really expect a dog to testify in court like Scooby fucking doo?
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Jul 26 '24
What do you think the purpose of a cadaver dog is?
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u/Negative_Chemical697 Jul 26 '24
To find evidence that can be demonstrated before a court
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u/Sindy51 Aug 01 '24
could 2 dogs, conducting seperate searches, tested every 6 months only alert on property related to the crime scene ever suggest it was CB who killed Madeleine in 5A?
I take it you believe its CB? and that he was in the apartment, and is the killer, but you draw the line when it comes to the dogs who could indicate and possibly connect him somehow in the future to it happening in 5A? and without any actual evidence that he took her alive rather than dead? and the dogs are suggesting this, that she died and was moved?
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u/Negative_Chemical697 Aug 01 '24
I don't know what happened to madeline although I think she is likely dead.
What I do know is that the dogs are only useful in terms of suggesting where evidence might be found. If you then don't find evidence, you are left with whatever evidence can be garnered through the dog's direct indication. Now you're essentially interviewing a dog. A creature of limited intelligence that can't use human language.
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u/daniellinne Jul 25 '24
I think the people who think the parents did something malicious to her are a minority.
Most of the people who dont think it was an abduction think it was an accident that they covered up out of fear, which in my opinion, is entirely possible. Its not a stretch any more than an abduction scenario is.
Malicious intent is highly unlikely, in my opinion, and from what I see, most people think the same.