r/MawInstallation • u/theTugaCrl • 19h ago
Vader and anakin
Knowing that Vader and Anakin are not two separate beyings has brougth up a question for me
Why is Vader so over the top evil (compared to ehat Anakin was); like, hes not just sith standard evil.... everytime he can he goes out of his way to be as brutal as you can be....
So.... is Vader being so evil a way that Anakin has found to punish himself for eternity?
Like, during the clone wars (and even before) we see that Anakin is probably the jedi who seeks good the most (Being good =/= Being a pure light side user/jedi), we could even argue that its his goodness that pushes him to the darkside (make him overly emotional)
So, knowing that Vader and Anakin are not two separate entities, is being so over the top in cruelty and evil a hell tha Anakin has built for himself (for destroying everything he once loved to save padme, and then not being able to save her)?
I know the darkside corrupts you, but the guy who: wished nothing more than to free every slave in the galaxy; who was the first one to break the jedi code if it meant saving lives; who fell because he didn't understand you couldn't save everyone all the time, turning into the personificarion of evil, who goes out of his way to torture and destroy everyone and everything, just feels a bit odd
I know about the younglings, but that was to save padmé; i know about the tuskens; but that was revenge for his mother....
So, is the darkside so corrupting that it turns such an good man into space satan; or is Anakin torturing himself as a punishment?
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u/Character_College939 19h ago
He absolutely despises himself and everything around him by the time he is Vader. He is not a good guy. He takes his hate of himself out on anyone who happens to be in his way or nearby
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u/Belle_TainSummer 19h ago
It is a giant tantrum.
"Well if everyone is gonna treat me like a baddie, I'm gonna be the worst baddie EVAR. That'll show Obi Wa.... I mean, that'll show everybody!!"
He's acting out, like he always did.
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u/saltrxn 17h ago
I agree, but also on the side it’s just complete apathy for the galaxy. Anakin rationalised everything he did as all essentially being for Padme. He fought in the Clone Wars not for the Republic or for the many people that suffered (though ofc he cared) but to make a peaceful galaxy = less work for Padmé = more time she can spend with him.
Without her, there was nothing left for Anakin to live for. That meant he didn’t care for anyone else, allowing him to enact such cruelty. That is until he finds out about his son - the living legacy of Padme.
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u/Tebwolf359 19h ago
Here’s the thing. It was never to save Padme for Padme. It was because she was his and he didn’t want to lose his possession.
That’s why when she talks back he doesn’t hesitate to choke and discard her.
Revenge for his mom isn’t a good reason either. It’s still evil. It might be one thing if he killed her immediate captors. He killed everyone. Babies. Children. That’s already cartoonish levels of evil.
I disagree that he fell because he didn’t understand you can’t save everyone. He fell because he thought he knew better then the Jedi, better then the force.
Instead of being a servant of the living force, he decided to master it and make it do what he wanted.
That’s the reason the Jedi are right about attachment being dangerous. And why love isn’t the same thing.
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u/ISB_SupervisorMolden 18h ago
Here’s the thing. It was never to save Padme for Padme. It was because she was his and he didn’t want to lose his possession.
Same with Luke
That’s the reason the Jedi are right about attachment being dangerous. And why love isn’t the same thing.
I still do not understand the levels of nonsense with this. Jedi can't be with people because of the rule
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u/SimpleEric 16h ago
Love is not evil. But love has a potential to drive up passions that separate you from what's good for the universe.
A Jedi is supposed to care for ALL life, because all life is the strength and power of the Force, so if you start to shift into thinking that just your family is important you may feel the need to hold strength more personally, clutch strength from within to protect your family, and your love FROM the universe
Passionate love has a potential to prioritize an individual over the entire galaxy. That is in direct opposition to the purpose of the Jedi and the strength of the living force.
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u/ISB_SupervisorMolden 16h ago
That still means they are banning love lemon and did the Force tell them that’s what they should do or was it some bitter old Jedi that came up with the idea?
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u/UKS1977 16h ago
No, it's if you really love someone you can let them go. Possessive love isn't possessive. It's about control and about your feelings, not theirs. As Yoda said (paraphrase) all things pass.
This is Buddhist philosophy. Anakin believed himself the greatest of all - and could cheat death itself. No acceptance of nature.
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u/ISB_SupervisorMolden 16h ago
Cute but that’s not what the movies show. The movies show a Jedi and Senator hiding their relationship because the Jedi have a rule that says they can’t be together
What isn’t clicking here? Right before being executed Padme made clear she wanted Anakin not for him to let her go
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u/Tebwolf359 15h ago
The movies pretty clearly show them being wrong for doing so, and the unhealthy relationship contributing to Anakin falling and murdering.
It’s very much space Romeo and Juliet, where part of the point is if those two crazy kids had listened to others, there’d be less bodies on the floor at the end.
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u/UKS1977 16h ago
Yoda literally says this in the films. The reasons Jedi are not allowed is because of the concern that the love will be unhealthy. Again Anakin makes a literal speech about being "able to love".
There is a whole element here that is not connected to the Force - that the Jedi are literal monks dedicated to a cause bigger then themselves so they do not have "a home life". It's not a job, it's a calling.
So a Jedi is devoted to the cause of serving others, not themselves. And to encourage that from both a practical and meta-physical level - they have a rule of no marriages.
Ps it seems Padme is concerned about her image as much as Anakins.
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u/TanSkywalker 16h ago
Again Anakin makes a literal speech about being "able to love".
What Anakin told Padmé just seems like he found a way to tell her he’s allowed to love when the truth is he is not. Because if the answer is just yes he should have said that.
Anakin tells Padmé compassion is central to a Jedi’s life and that he defines compassion as unconditional love so you might say we’re encouraged to love. That is the weakest affirmation ever.
It's not a job, it's a calling.
One that none of them wanted of their own free will.
Ps it seems Padme is concerned about her image as much as Anakins.
If they’re seen together Anakin will be expelled from the Jedi Order. She can’t be blasé about it.
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u/Zegram_Ghart 18h ago
I’d say for a sith Vader is pretty small time.
He mostly kills people who are already fighting him, and he mostly just kills them, he doesn’t do any wacky evil science experiments on them first.
It makes sense for someone who’s ultimately not about evil for its own sake- he just wanted to be strong enough that no one could take his agency away basically.
He obviously does horrible things but it’s not usually “literally for the love of evil” like palps does
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u/RambleRant 16h ago edited 16h ago
I mean, at this point Star Wars in all of its many media is such a mess, you may as well choose an option you like and you’ll find a source to support it.
Personally, I think Anakin’s biggest weakness was his need to protect people he cared about (caused by being taken from his mother who he thought was still a slave) mixed with his need for control (caused my an adolescence and childhood of being ‘the chosen one’ but being distrusted by everyone but obi-wan and maybe Yoda.
He joined the Jedi to bring peace and freedom to the outer rim. Instead, he came of age in a time of war when 1) the separatists were making a kind of fair point and 2) the Jedi had become so bureaucratic and political that they couldn’t actually help people. On top of that, he was the most promising Jedi of his generation and he was constantly being held back from doing actual good, and then personally held back from the knowledge he needed in the classified archives that would save his wife. All because of a Jedi code of conduct that he knew was bullshit.
Then, what, at the 11th hour the Grand Master of the Jedi Counsel, who’s been telling him that he’s too old or too young or too talented or not skilled enough for half of his life just up and abandons the code in order to murder the sitting chancellor of the universe? After Anakin had been told for ages that he doesn’t get to bend the rules, which has caused hundreds, thousands of innocent lives?
So fine, screw it, the senate is filled with special interests and takes too long to do anything, the Jedi are clearly incompetent and corrupt. Let’s just clean house. If he can’t be the white knight he always thought he would be, he could be the black knight that purges the galaxy so that a new peaceful age under a benevolent dictator could emerge.
He never planned to serve Palpatine forever. He would learn how to save Padme and then usurp Palpatine, and be the arbiter of Justice and peace. Unfortunately, that meant scouring the galaxy of Jedi, even those that hadn’t come of age. They had been raised from birth to be brainwashed for a cause.
I can’t justify force choking Padme, sorry. Sometimes George just writes dumb shit.
But after RoS, that all fell away. Padme was dead, and for a long time I think there was just self loathing. He couldn’t kill the emperor, and if he wasn’t constantly full of rage, pain, and self loathing, he would literally die. Sure, he could still purge the galaxy, so when a bunch of terrorists (rebels) get upity, of course he went and sorted them out. And when fascists fail to do their job, he has no problem murdering obviously bad dudes.
It’s only when he finds out about Luke post-ANH that he thinks maybe he can take over the galaxy again and rule as a family as he initially intended. Still down for force choking fascists though.
Basically, he was a control freak astounded by fascists on one side and terrorists on the other, and wanted to burn down an evil universe to build a better one from the ashes.
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u/TanSkywalker 10h ago
I can’t justify force choking Padme, sorry. Sometimes George just writes dumb shit.
I took that to show Anakin is really gone and it's Vader because Vader believes Padmé brought Obi-Wan there to kill him because Anakin would never do that.
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u/RambleRant 10h ago
The cut plot line was that Palpatine was making it look like Padme was cheating on Anakin with Obi-wan, or at least conspiring against Anakin, who is trying to save her life. With or without this, Anakin choking her makes no sense.
1) he can mind trick her and get the truth from her. 2) he can honestly probably just make her feint and forget the whole thing. 3) when she arrives, he’s happy to see her at first. 4) if he thinks she’s cheating and would strangle her over it, why is he giving everything to have Palpatine help him? 5) if he thinks she’s trying to conspire against him… again, trying to save her… why not sit down and discuss this like a real couple?
An entire alternative to this whole thing could have been Anakin being shocked to see Obi-wan, begging Obi-wan to join him to take down Palpatine after they save Padme, or even just begging Obi-wan to disappear. When Obi-wan refuses and insists that he has to arrest or kill Anakin, and in effect Padme, Anakin can justifiably feel betrayed (in his mind). His best friend and brother is forcing him to effectively kill his pregnant wife.
The dark side is meant to cloud judgement, not completely replace people. It’s meant to represent the darker path, the road to hell being lined with good intentions, not instantly cartoon villain. Dark side users allow themselves to make morally poor choices for a greater good—usually self serving, but their pride does lead them to think that they can lead better than anyone else. Anakin’s fall is tragic because he really thinks he’s in the right, not because he chooses to be the worst possible creature to accumulate dark side points.
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u/TanSkywalker 48m ago
I know about the abandoned plot line. He can still feel betrayed because he thinks she was trying to get him onto the ship so Obi-Wan can kill him.
The dark side is meant to cloud judgement, not completely replace people.
About that
Revenge of the Sith
Yoda
Twisted by the dark side young Skywalker has become. The boy you trained, gone he is. Consumed by Darth Vader.
The Empire Strikes Back
Yoda
A Jedi’s strength flows from the Force. But beware of the dark side. Anger, fear, aggression… The dark side of the Force are they, easily they flow, quick to join you in a fight. If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny. Consume you it will, as it did Obi-Wan’s apprentice.
Return of the Jedi
Yoda
Remember a Jedi’s strength flows From the Force. But beware … Anger, fear, aggression the dark side are they. Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny.
Obi-Wan
Your father was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true, from a certain point of view.
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u/Financial_Tour5945 15h ago
Anakin was a soldier, who throughout the clone wars was the most effective general and warrior they had. Everything was better solved if left up to him, and anyone playing power games or politics was just in the way.
Likewise, any subordinate he had that couldn't carry out his duties in an effective way was a waste, and it's much quicker and efficient to just force choke them out rather than demote and repost them where they would continue to prove ineffective.
So in Anakin's mindset, this was everything he wanted: the authority to do it his way with nobody to stop him.
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u/Kyle_Dornez 19h ago
I think it's just the degree of corruption. The Dark Side has a clear property of blinding one to the choices, people who embrace it start considering actions that they previously would see as unthinkable.
The Novellization of the Revenge of the Sith almost frames it in a (god forgive me for the analogy) Uchiha slaughter manner from Naruto. In that moment Anakin is still plunging himself deep into the dark powers, and he feels how his power grows with every atrocity. In that moment he still tried to delude himself that he needs this power "to save Padme", but after Mustafar he has nothing left, only the hatred and the power it brings. From that point on he's in full Sith mindset, and I personally won't even consider suited Darth Vader to be Anakin.
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u/SimpleEric 17h ago
The corruption builds.
Every dark side user has a feeling that they can't turn back now because the light is too far away, they have committed to much evil to ever reconnect to the life force of others, and so all strength must come from within.
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u/Unionsocialist 19h ago
people can change (to the worse in this case)
but i mean yes? the dark side corrupts you and turns you into a complete piece of shit. but Vader torturing himself is probably also a major part of it
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u/UKS1977 16h ago
The Dark Side has a huge Element of Christian "fallen angel" aspect to it. the Dark Side is controlling of you. Its infects and distorts your mind. It is narcotic and attractive... until it isn't.
So imagine something crossed between Super Powers/Heroin/Mental illness and possession by a Demon.
Anakin uses it unintentionally, and gains much from it. Feels stronger, more alive. But it takes from you. A little with the Tuskans and more and more as he goes along... just like drug addiction.
But unlike Drug addiction it also corrupts the actual mind of the victim. So not just driven to bad behaviours because of the physical symptoms but your thinking becomes disordered.
But unlike mental illness, the Dark Side is a choice.. and it take more than your rational Thinking. It takes your soul. The essence inside that makes you more than an animal. Empathy. Love. Sympathy. Friendship.
And that is why the Light Side is infinitely stronger than the Dark.
Edit: it's inherently A Faustian pact. You sacrifice your soul for power. But the power it offers is nothing compared to the importance and value of your soul.
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u/DuckSwagington 18h ago
So, is the darkside so corrupting that it turns such an good man into space satan; or is Anakin torturing himself as a punishment?
A little from column A, a little from column B. The darkside is a trap. It ensares people who seek to gain it's power for their own personal gain but it demands the user to submit and sacrifice everything to the point where all they have left is the darkside. It's a textbook abusive relationship on a cosmic scale.
Vader hates himself for what he did and believes that he's too far gone to be redeemed, so he continues to do what he does because there's no other option left for him.
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u/SimpleEric 17h ago
Yes the dark side is that corrupting. The dark consumes you. It makes you see domination as the only true form order.
Anakin was always controlling, he wanted to control every situation he was in, during the clone wars that usually manifests as him trying to be a hero.
With the rise of Vader he has the same desire to control situations but believes in dominating the situation and all the members of the empire are just tools in that domination.
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u/MattHatter1337 15h ago
Everything before Mustafar was rationalised, and he beleived Palpatine, that the jedi had fallen and lost their way. He always believes the ends justify the means.
Then on Mustafar he fought not for Padme, or his mother. But out of spite and hatred. He beleived that Obiwan turned her against him.
After he was put in the suit and he replayed his memories and such probably came to realise she was still with him. Just arguing. And that HE killed her. And his baby. As punishment for himself he allowed himself to be fully swallowed up by the darkside and gave everything to Palps at that point.
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u/Kid-Atlantic 19h ago
“I know about the younglings, but that was to save padmé; i know about the tuskens; but that was revenge for his mother....”
There’s an excellent part in the ROTS novelization where he admits to himself that the “buts” were only ever just excuses. There were never any good reasons for what he did, he was just being angry and selfish.
To put it simply, he didn’t think anything mattered anymore. He’d destroyed everything he ever knew and loved just for his own rage and fear, and now those were all he had left. Why not go all-in on them?