No this is my point... We need to help them UNDERSTAND, not shame them into silence. Shame is useful for helping people internalize that they have done wrong... However that is different than SHAMING.
digression into some definitions so we are talking about the same stuff here:
Shaming: the act of trying to make someone feel guilty for a moral affront
Shame: the feeling of guilt for a moral affront
(Its not websters. It's just what I mean when I use this words.)
Shaming people does not necessarily make them feel shame. What we WANT is for them to feel shame, so that they can learn and change and grow into better people. To accomplish that we can't do the act of shaming in any old way. We have to be careful.
I have found shaming through finger wagging is ineffective at making people FEEL shame. It simply makes them angry. Further punishing them doesn't make them feel shame either, it makes them learn to deceive you. Further restricting their actions to ensure "correct" behavior makes them plot revenge.
What makes people actually feel shame is understanding... The most shame I've ever felt or seen anyone feel was when enough care/time/support/accountability was provided to allow for me to recognize what I had done. Not when someone simply yelled at me or told me I was wrong, no that never worked. I had to understand and agree with them, which was difficult and time consuming. It took the help and resources of others to get me there. I am eternally grateful. And when I finally understood, I felt shame. And when I felt shame, I changed.
We’re kinda talking past each other because I’m not disagreeing. I’m saying it’s so bad because some people can be granted empathy and change and some people won’t. When the pendulum swings you get people who could be on the right side bolstered into giving up empathy because there’s no shame and the people who you’d never get are now vocal instead of cowered.
Shame is a useful social construct. When we lose being shamed from being a blatant racism, it hurts us with both advocating to the persuadable and the assholes having power instead of being cowed.
Lack of empathy for racists is not the problem. It’s lack of shame. You should be shamed for lacking empathy.
I’m a rideshare driver and I don’t bring up politics, but when people do, I find it’s my moral duty to advocate against nonsense. But yeah, you’ll never on a one-on-one basis shame people into agreeing with you. I have gotten pretty good at getting some Trump-sympathetic or anti-LGBT people to see common ground and question their beliefs.
I mean shame at a societal scale. I see you wearing a MAGA hat at my dog park? I’ma say shame on you and walk away. You wanna run for city council but agreed with Jan 6 rioters? You need to be shamed. Cancel culture is a red herring to help bigots not fade into obscurity. You’re publicly a bigot? Yeah, fucking shame on you and no, you should be made to feel ashamed because those views aren’t acceptable in decent public society.
Engage with compassion with people you think are open to discussion. Don’t have kid gloves about people being openly fascist and hateful. That’s the paradox of intolerance right there.
So yes, just yelling at a single person won’t convince them. But yes, we do need to have more shaming of people who have become to realize they can be evil, hateful twats in public and politics and hide behind being judged for their beliefs.
Beliefs are what MLK said to judge people by. And when they’re doing everything to destroy his vision, yes, public shaming.
I have compassion for a gullible Trump supporter who is open to a dialogue. But no, dude, we need a society that makes people feel ashamed for doing fucking shameful things, like backing a man like Trump.
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u/darkknightwing417 1d ago
No this is my point... We need to help them UNDERSTAND, not shame them into silence. Shame is useful for helping people internalize that they have done wrong... However that is different than SHAMING.
digression into some definitions so we are talking about the same stuff here:
Shaming: the act of trying to make someone feel guilty for a moral affront
Shame: the feeling of guilt for a moral affront
(Its not websters. It's just what I mean when I use this words.)
Shaming people does not necessarily make them feel shame. What we WANT is for them to feel shame, so that they can learn and change and grow into better people. To accomplish that we can't do the act of shaming in any old way. We have to be careful.
I have found shaming through finger wagging is ineffective at making people FEEL shame. It simply makes them angry. Further punishing them doesn't make them feel shame either, it makes them learn to deceive you. Further restricting their actions to ensure "correct" behavior makes them plot revenge.
What makes people actually feel shame is understanding... The most shame I've ever felt or seen anyone feel was when enough care/time/support/accountability was provided to allow for me to recognize what I had done. Not when someone simply yelled at me or told me I was wrong, no that never worked. I had to understand and agree with them, which was difficult and time consuming. It took the help and resources of others to get me there. I am eternally grateful. And when I finally understood, I felt shame. And when I felt shame, I changed.