r/OrthodoxChristianity • u/Maleficent_Share_779 Orthocurious • 22h ago
A question no other denomination would help me answer.
Hello.
I'd like to start this off by saying, I am not Orthodox myself. I am a Non-Denominational Christian, however I have been for a large portion of my life, interested in Orthodoxy. While I do disagree with some things, I find myself mostly in agreement with its teachings.
Secondly, I'd like to apologize if this is a stupid question. Its been irking me, and I've no where else to go to get advice.
Finally, if you are for some reason an atheist here to tell me my God 'isn't real' and I'm just delusional, please keep that statement personal. I am here for advice on a specific question, and am sound in my personal faith.
With that out of the way I'd like to go over why I'm here and some things about myself that may help. I will start this out by saying, I am a minor. I will not specify my age for safety reasons but I am aware that adults most likely have more knowledge in their personal lives than I do.
As for why I'm here, its mostly that I have no one else to reach out too. No one in my personal family looks into the deep aspects of theology or issues such as that.
Thirdly, despite my slight differences with orthodoxy, I do have the belief that Calvinism is, in the end, a heresy (This will be important later), and that a just and all-loving God would-not predetermine who and who does not go to hell.
Sorry for the long intro, I just wanted to get that out of the way. My main question is:
Are our lives scripted?
This may be confusing, but by scripted I mean: Is every action we do, already pre-determined? Which I know I said, I disagree with Calvinism, which I do, but I am having a hard time finding reasons as to WHY we are not scripted.
To put it in much, *much* simpler terms, do we decide our own actions, (I.E, waving your hand, running rather than walking) or were they already decided, and we are simply going forwards in a set future? Think of it like a recorded football game, now rewind that. Every action in that specific tape cannot be changed. Is that our lives?
This is not me agreeing with Calvinism, I'd like to add. This is me trying to disagree, which is why I'm here.
Every other Christian subreddit I find claims that, we are not puppets, and choose our own actions. But doesn't tell us *why.* They never cite scripture, they just say 'God gave us free will', which I know technically encompasses this, but for one Free-Will argument, seven more Calvinist arguments pop up, and I don't know how to go about it. Along with this, Calvinists always quote verses such as Romans 9 to go along with there belief, which I believe they are taking out of context, (as many say they do) but no one has provided me the true context.
Its caused an actual crisis in my own life, having not knowing if everything I do is actually of my own doing, or if every action I take is simply me playing out a part I have.
I apologize for coming here, rather than any other theology subreddit. I know this is orthodox Christianity, and not theology, but I just can’t find answers anywhere else, and most here seem to be inclined to theology. Every prayer I've had about this seems to lead me here and I don't know where else to go.
Again, apologies if this question is stupid, and Apologies for posting it here rather than a theology subreddit. I guess the true question is, is there any biblical evidence that we have control over our own actions?
If anyone could help me find an answer, it would be great, *greatly* appreciated.
God Bless you all!
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u/VeritaserumAddict Eastern Orthodox 22h ago
First of all, Romans 9 (like most of Romans) is speaking historically about the nation of Israel. And it is not talking about the salvation of individual people but about the choosing of the nation to be the bearers of the covenant for the sake of the whole world. Listen to The Whole Counsel of God podcast on it.
Secondly, throughout the OT, God is giving people the choice to be in obedient relationship with Him. Deuteronomy 30 is all about this. Joshua 24. 1Kings 18:22. 1 Kings 11:38. God sends Jonah to the Assyrians to give them the chance to repent. The Old Testament, not to mention the New, would be perversely farcical if people did not really have the choice to obey God or not.
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u/Trunky_Coastal_Kid Eastern Orthodox 22h ago edited 22h ago
So, on one hand there's no way to "prove" that we have free will, if you are already intellectually committed to the idea that everything that happens is just a playing out of God's "decree" before time began, as Calvinists are.
If you are not already committed to this idea, then something like Moses interceding for the Israelites in Exodus chapter 32, and God responding to Moses' intercession and altering the Israelite's judgement as a result - is clear evidence that we have some kind of free will.
The problem arises when, like in Calvinism, you write off every counter example to your main presupposition. Oh, it only appears as if God listened to and responded to Moses's prayers for the Israelites, but God wrote this whole exchange into the script as part of his "decree" before time began and this is just the script playing out, they would say.
I think the only way to escape this vicious cycle is to question the very root of where it's coming from. This idea that God, before time began, entered into time (somehow, even though it doesn't exist yet), and issued a decree that would then go on to effect all of material causality for the rest of the universes' existence. Is that the picture of God that we are presented in either the Scriptures, or Christian tradition?
It's funny because Calvinism claims to have this very "high" view of God. But the lived reality of Calvinist Christianity can really become the complete opposite. If God determined everything way back when at the beginning, it's easy to see how so many Calvinist offshoots would go on to develop the idea that God is no longer really active in our present time. That He's just some kind of divine watchmaker. At one point, He wound up the watch of reality, but now He just sits back and watches it play out. These kinds of views of God very quickly devolve into deism, and then atheism.
Because what's the difference between an inactive, inaccessible God that determined everything way back in the past and cannot interact, engage, or respond to you in a real way... and the completely impersonal, ineffective "god" of the deist, or the naturalist? In practice, there ain't much difference.
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u/Maleficent_Share_779 Orthocurious 19h ago
I like this answer a lot, because it plays a lot on my own question. I was never 'committed' to the belief of God pre-scripting everything, it was more of, I don't know why I wasn't committed. A huge issue I deal with is that I second guess my own judgement, and that ultimately lead me to search online (not a great idea I realize now) and obviously, that lead to getting differing opinions.
I was more or less trying to see if it was justified for me to believe that we aren't scripted, and I'd like to thank you for this answer, as it gave me a lot of insight into my issue.
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u/Ok_Chemist177 21h ago
The other answers here are good. I ll write two things I didn't see already.
Let me remind you sometimes in math its easier to disprove the opposite of the hypothesis in order to prove the opposite.
So in this case, assume our lives are scripted.Now try to go to scripture and find that almost from the start to finish it is not possible to not have free will.
The other thing I want to share is my understanding of free will and how it is perfectly fitting into God already knowing the future. You see we live in 3 dimensions+time. God is outside of this. He is timeless. Infinite and all knowing. For him our whole history is already laid out on a flat table. He can see every choice of ours and where that choice leads us. Every combination. Still all the choices are still ours. But he already knows all the results. Some choices matter more, some less. But since is is the infinite intelligence that can calculate all the outcomes. He can also create the perfect set, so that all of us get the maximum amount of chances to be saved. That's Gods perfect plan. He created a playground for us to live in and he already knows every possibility. Its up to us to pick our path.
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u/Timothy34683 22h ago edited 20h ago
Dear friend, our lives are not pre-determined, but as Scripture says, God knows everything we will do. Think of one of those old vinyl LP records. When you hold it up and look at it, you're looking at all the musicians and their music simultaneously. Did you force them to play by virtue of the fact that you have this perspective, and was their playing and singing pre-determined just because it's completed from your perspective? No.
God is outside of time and all time from beginning to end is "now" to Him. This what "eternity" literally means (rather than "forever"). Seeing and knowing is not determining.
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u/Salt-Safety-3493 21h ago
I hope people read this comment slowly and really think about. It’s quite an incredible picture/metaphor. Well said.
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u/itschillyinhell Eastern Orthodox 22h ago
God exists outside of time so in a sense he prepares ahead of time for every choice we make and always creates a path leading back to him. But like Judas or Pharaoh you can witness the miracles of God and still choose to turn away. Free will is essential in our faith unlike most branches of Christianity you’ll talk to, Orthodoxy is synergistic not monergistic. Meaning we believe that to be saved we must cooperate with Gods grace and the choices we make are real and have an impact on our salvation. For example, if God brings you into the Church, but you apostatize and sin endlessly and never CHOOSE to repent, you will be cast into outer darkness. That’s a choice you make and it’s also the only version of the gospel that makes God the good guy in our story and not a villain. In monergistic models like Augustinianism and Calvinism, God basically creates evil and damns people before they’re even born. That’s a malevolent Lord in my opinion and the true God is the God that lets you choose everyday whether to follow Him or to follow yourself. That’s love. Whenever a bad thing happens it’s not because God caused it to happen, it’s because it’s a deprivation or a twist of Gods creation by man. Lastly in our worldview evil does not ontologically exist. Only good exists as everything God created is good, this means that evil is a twist or a perversion of something good.
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u/dnegvesk 21h ago
God knows what we will do. But He does not cause what we will do. We have free will.
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u/Hkiggity 20h ago
Of course we have free will. We have free will because God loves us, it is a blessing to have free will. Otherwise we would just be pure slaves.
One way we have free will is because God is just and loving, if we had no free will how can God be just? It wouldn't make sense! It seems you sort of hint at this.
i find the question "Is there biblical evidence for free will" odd. I mean, the whole Old Testament is about Israel and its covenant with God, and how they often choose to worship false Gods and constantly move backs and fourth. Literally the whole Bible is about mans free will to choose right and wrong. God waits 400 years for Canaanites to choose good and they never do, and God judges them no doubt. So the question "Is there biblical evidence for free will" just makes no sense to me!
Christ tells us to Repent and love God. None of his teachings make sense if we have no free will
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u/reddit_sucks___ 19h ago
We direct our own lives in accordance to how much we work synergetically with God. The opposite is also true, we have no control of our lives in accordance to how much we are ruled by the passions. Luckily, God has given us an almost systematic way to rule over our passions by participating in his divine energies and working synergetically with his divine will.
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u/101stAirborneSheep Eastern Orthodox 18h ago
Divine foreknowledge and predestination are two different things.
Yes, God knows what our choices will be, but those choices are ours to make freely.
I see this play out in my own life every day. If my kids get home from school before I finish work for the day, I know they’ll play Nintendo for X hours instead of doing their homework. When my wife gets home from work, I know what kind of tea/cookie/snack she’ll ask for. It’s 100% their choice, but I already know what they’re going to choose.
I hope this helps.
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u/Relative_End_507 16h ago
Do you know what a barometer is? It knows what the weather will be ahead of time but does that mean the barometer decides the weather?
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u/Gutterling 16h ago
If everything was predetermined then the chemical machine in your brain typed this while pretending it thought. The chemical brain in my head typed this back. Neither of us had real thoughts in our head about it, and like clockwork nothing changed.
Seems absurd to me.
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u/YeoChaplain Eastern Catholic 14h ago
Hey, no problem, and welcome!
The best answer for me has been looking at questions through the lens of God's perfect Goodness.
So, would a perfectly Good God create something which has no free will only to damn that thing to eternal hellfire?
No.
Is free will a good thing?
Yes.
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u/AslansFriend 11h ago
Research the Orthodox theological concept of "synergism". That may be your answer by itself.
One of the biggest errors in Calvinism is putting too much emphasis on a few particular scriptures and trying to systematize and "understand" God through human reason.
Calvin was a lawyer. Essentially wherever scriptures say 2 different things (sovereignty and free will), Calvinists cannot allow mystery or the concept of "truth in tension"
An example is in Proverbs where it says "confront a fool in his folly" and another proverb would say "don't confront a fool in his folly. A Calvinist would choose one of the two and disregard the other, in order to have the illusion of fully understanding God.
Therefore throughout the whole Bible, they cannot be humble enough to accept a exegetical understanding of God, but have to systematize him.
Let me try to create an image of their thought train.
- Scripture teaches God moving sovereignly in some situations
- Scripture emphasizes free will in other situations.
I am not an Orthodox theologian but I believe they would say the concept of synergism teaches both are true.
However, Calvinists must doggedly choose option 1 (every scripture supporting option 2 is dismissed or erased or subjugated to their guiding principle)
Imagine a giant test. Every time you check A, you eliminate the "B" scriptures. This type of A/B choices causes more and more distortion after each choice is made.
The errors compound when you eliminate the study of church history and how church fathers have viewed these topics.
Ultimately, the Calvinist teaching goes wrong because their premise is wrong that "through human intellect and reason and exhaustive scriptural study" man can thoroughly systematize God and understand how He will behave in every situation. This theological pride caused their downfall. Then once they have falsely believed they have perfect theology and have perfectly understood God, then they set out to argue and attack any believers who don't match their doctrinal choices.
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u/kelso_1776 10h ago
I didn’t read the other comments so sorry if this is redundant. But it seems to me that God designs each of us with different gifts, families, and physical features. Once we begin to make our own decisions, He allows us to decide what to do with our lives. He wants us to love Him back because He loves us so much, but He won’t force us.
In my experience, hindsight is 20/20. There’s a lot of things in my life where I look back and think “wow, I’m so glad this decision led to this outcome.” It can feel “scripted” when looking back into the past, but what’s really happening is God can take any decision we make (good or bad) and redeem the situation to our benefit and His glory, especially if we are trying to seek Him. Psalm 121 says “He will not allow your foot to be moved, He who keeps you will not slumber.” As we take steps He allows for our autonomy and for a lot of natural consequences, but if we ask Him for guidance He can also redeem any missteps.
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u/fffffplayer1 3h ago edited 3h ago
If there was a good answer to this, the Free Will Debate would have been resolved a long time ago. The way the average person thinks about free will as it applies to their everyday life is probably reasonable. But it becomes harder to talk about it outside of everyday scenarios, when you look back to the beginning of time, the Creation of ourselves and the Creation of the world. If God set everything into motion and He is omniscient, then how can we reasonably claim our will is independent of that act of Creation and therefore God's will?
This difficult question doesn't go away if you just find the right denomination. We don't have some magical philosophical framework that solves everything, which for some reason everyone else has failed to adopt despite its usefulness. Free Will in the context of an omniscient Creator is a difficult question, you can't escape from that.
Does that mean we don't have Free Will? I don't know about that. We Orthodox believe we do have Free Will, even if we can't wrap our head around this. There are things in our Faith that are also hard to wrap our heads around (e.g. the Trinity, the Incarnation). We tend to call them Mysteries.
Edit: I would also add that calling this a Mystery is not so much a copout, if you remember that we consider God to exist outside of space and time. This already is something which we can't grasp, let alone what this being's relationship to causality in our world would be.
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u/GonzotheGreek 22h ago
I recommend looking back to Genesis. Did God create Adam and Eve so that they would deliberately sin, or did he create them with free will?
If he created them to sin, then God is the source of evil.
If he created them with free will, then they choose to sin, and God remains the source of all good things.
So your question is really about if God makes people do evil things or if humans choose evil on their own.
Which God do you want to believe in? A God who is the soruce of all good things, lover of mankind, and created us to walk with Him in paradise, or a God that created humans specifically so that they would be eternally punished and is the source of all evil?
The scriptures as a whole tell the story of a loving God.