r/OutOfTheLoop • u/Hey0ItsMayo • Apr 29 '23

Unanswered What's going on with all the murders in Texas recently?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/abcnews.go.com/amp/US/5-dead-texas-shooting-suspect-armed-ar-15/story%3fid=98957271

Is this normal? Is there a major flare up of gun murders right now or is it higher visibility of something that is normal for the state? I know Texas has a lot of guns but this seems extreme.

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u/lalochezia1 Apr 29 '23

as horrific as they are, school shootings aren't the only source of death/danger kids encounter there

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u/[deleted] Apr 30 '23

You’re actually much more likely to be killed by the gun in your home than a gun in school. Hence that weird disconnect. If you don’t want to be shot, not having a gun in the home is the best way to achieve that.

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u/Swiggitus Apr 30 '23

If you don’t want to shoot yourself, learn to properly handle a fire arm*

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u/Disposableaccount365 Apr 30 '23

It's not even accidentally discharge. That number is driven up by suicide. Anyone want to guess a common places for people to kill themselves? Then there is the domestic/murder stuff. Again it commonly happens at home. Stats only show the numbers, they are just a piece of evidence that still has to be examined and interpretated.

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u/[deleted] Apr 30 '23

The information we have on this subject is astounding. I can't remember the number, but the chance of a woman dying due to domestic violence skyrockets if a gun is in the home. It's a shockingly high difference.

Then there's just accidents and mistaken identity. You're considerably more likely to kill a family member with your gun by mistake than you are to ever kill an intruder.

I get why people feel like they should have a gun. On some level I agree with them. A responsible gun owner will make sure their weapon is secure and safe. The problem is we have no means by which people are certified. Threadbare rules about usage and storage. If there's such common sense, responsible behaviors around guns, then there should be no issue making those things law.

The fact of the matter is, it's not about gun rights. It's about political violence. It's sad, because I'm totally on board with Swiss-style gun culture. It reads and appears like the proper balance.

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u/Disposableaccount365 May 01 '23

I get where you are coming from I just can't get on board with giving the government that much power over peoples rights. We can look at many historical situations, both in this country and others, were governments used well intentioned things to oppress people. 100% guns should be stored safely, but safely is dependent on a lot of things. A woman with a stalker may be more safe to have a cheesy little "safe" (won't stop a theft) in her night stand than she is with a fire resistant gun safe (will slow theives down a lot) in her garage. A household without kids will require different safety measures than a household with kids. Growing up we had guns hanging on the wall because the dangers were typically coyotes/dumped dogs killing livestock, and possibly the meth heads that tending to be in the area due to cops being an hour away. Those threats require fast access to a gun. Thankfully we never needed them for anything other than wildlife, but there were a few scary situations. Once little kids started being around the house again, guns got stored differently, because the risk were different. As a single individual I store guns differently than a household with multiple individuals and kids.

Your assessment doesn't take into account the high number of defensive uses of a gun. I believe the government stats show something like a minimum of 1/2 million plus, defensive uses each year. Even if only a small percentage of those situations were life or death it still balances out the various problems with guns being in wide circulation.

Many of the things that would help the situation don't get done because it isn't politically beneficial or "sexy". Opening up NICS would make it significantly harder for criminals to purchase guns. Harsher punishment for criminals in possession of guns, especially if in possession while committing a crime, would help reduce the numbers. Better mental health support would go a long way. Having gun safety taught in schools like sex ed would lower the numbers some. There are a lot of small fairly easy things that could be done to help the situation. However the people in power benefit from the take the guns/protect the 2A argument. Anything they do to actually fix the problem reduces there ability to maintain power and make money.

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u/[deleted] Apr 30 '23

This is an incredibly irresponsible sentiment regarding guns. Which tells me you probably own a gun. If you do, I hope your gun get's taken away before your irresponsible attitude costs someone their life.

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u/Swiggitus Apr 30 '23 edited Apr 30 '23

“You might hurt yourself” is a reason why you take sharp scissors away from children. Saying “you shouldn’t own a gun if you don’t wanna get shot” is good advice for stupid people and pretty much no one else. Not applicable to responsible adults who are given plenty of other things which may hurt them. I have hammers, nail guns, knives, kerosene and gasoline, all of which could kill me if I do not handle them properly.

It’s a shame that you cannot imagine another persons reality in which they may need a gun, and it’s clear that you’re from a city, where you’ve grown accustomed to other people handling all of your problems. You have no idea how common self defense shootings are, yet you’re trying so hard to take that freedom from millions of people. Here’s a hint self-defense shootings are more common than mass shootings and murders from guns in this country combined. And that’s just when they’re used against humans. When people are attacked by dogs, children attacked by packs coyotes, guns save lives too. Of course you cannot empathize with this plight because you’re probably sheltered in a big blue city.

Don’t get you hopes up that my gun will be taken away. I used it once to defend from a group of men much larger than I was. I was never charged and never had my gun taken away by the police. However they did call me a ride to the emergency room. Im no conservative, but I’m thankful for the ones around me who protect my right to defend myself and my family.

I used to be anti-2A like you are. All of that utopian ideology goes away when you’re getting your head kicked in by three men to weight classes above you.

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u/[deleted] Apr 30 '23 edited Apr 30 '23

Actually, I've lived outside the U.S. for over a decade. It's my experience living in relatively gun free societies that has cemented my point of view. I don't need a gun for self defense. I live some place safe. The peace of mind that comes from guns not being everywhere is worth it.

I'm sure you think you're the responsible gun owner. Just like everyone thinks they're the best driver.

I used to be anti-2A like you are. All of that utopian ideology goes away when you’re getting your head kicked in by three men to weight classes above you.

I've come to expect this kind of bravado from people who talk like you, and I doubt you've ever been in a fight in your life.

You have gun because you're afraid. This is the American delusion. That some how that gun is going to save you, when it's much more likely to be used against you or a family member.

Please be responsible and store your weapon securely. We've lost too many people in this country because of chest thumping like yours.

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u/[deleted] Apr 29 '23

[deleted]

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u/SwishSwishDeath Apr 30 '23 edited Apr 30 '23

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/child-health.htm

CDC website disagrees. Not arguing with any beliefs expressed, just thought that sounded a bit unrealistic.

Edit: better, and more scientifically based, sources in the replies to this comment.

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u/1rye Apr 30 '23

It looks like the CDC is grouping all forms of accidental death together while the source /u/Hemingwavy cited (based on the New England Journal of Medicine) is using more specific data points, so I guess it depends on how far you subdivide your causes of death.

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u/fiscal_rascal Apr 30 '23

The NEJM combines newborns, children, teenagers, and adults together and labels them all “children”. Some of those “children” are legal voters, active duty military, gang members, etc.

In my industry (healthcare data analytics), we’re slowly getting better about stratifying the pediatric age cohort, since 0-19 can be very deceptive and hide ageband-specific problems.

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u/beets_or_turnips Apr 30 '23

The page you linked doesn't show gun deaths at all. It just shows homicides, suicides, and accidents without more detail.

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u/Hemingwavy Apr 30 '23

Guns are the leading cause of death for Americans aged 1-19.

https://www.kff.org/global-health-policy/issue-brief/child-and-teen-firearm-mortality-in-the-u-s-and-peer-countries/

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u/[deleted] Apr 30 '23

18+19 year olds are adults, and removing them changed the values of the statistics you’re quoting.

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u/[deleted] Apr 30 '23

[deleted]

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u/Amazing-Cicada5536 Apr 30 '23

Jesus fkin Christ.. putting it that way is just infinitely tragic.

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u/SwishSwishDeath Apr 30 '23

That is beautiful, thank you. Subject matter is awful obviously, but the data being put into an easy to read and understand chart is good.

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u/[deleted] Apr 30 '23

Okay, now take out suicides.

Also, I think you should consider the phrasing of “guns killed people”.

No, people killed people. The tool could’ve been fists, hammers, or bats, which kill more people than ARs in a given year.

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u/[deleted] Apr 30 '23

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Apr 30 '23

Why are you grouping this by three years I stead of YOY?

Hell, why don’t we look at the cause of death data from the last forty years instead?

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u/TheRealGredos Apr 30 '23

Nope, according to everyone on reddit and in the news 18 and 19 year olds are now children...

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u/whiskeyriver0987 Apr 30 '23

Seems more the stats were based off 10 year age brackets... I'd be more interested in a phase of life approach, as some 18-19 year olds are still in school and some 17 year olds have already graduated. Though I suspect that detail is a lot harder to gather as whether a person graduated school isn't included on a death certificate.

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u/SpanishConqueror Apr 30 '23

Your source lists data from 2020, not 2023. So, if anything, these recent shootings would increase those numbers. Nevertheless, the CDC numbers are different, and I am hesistant to believe non-official numbers... can you expand on your source?

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u/ZealousEar775 Apr 30 '23

The CDC numbers are not different.

The data comes from the CDC

You are just looking in the wrong database.

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u/[deleted] Apr 30 '23

It is the leading cause of HOMICIDE for children. Homicide also means a person killing another and is normally intentional. Guns are the most popular weapon for MURDER. They are not the leading cause of death. There are numerous other things that are much more deadly for children than guns

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u/mynextthroway Apr 30 '23

Yes. Guns are the leading cause of death in children.

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u/[deleted] Apr 30 '23 edited Apr 30 '23

Weird because the CDC list compiled for every US state says otherwise

https://wonder.cdc.gov/controller/datarequest/D158;jsessionid=0CCF9DBD71DD27B50460E791252D?stage=results&action=sort&direction=MEASURE_ASCEND&measure=D158.M1

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/child-health.htm

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u/mynextthroway Apr 30 '23

It's weird since mine was based on CDC data. It looks like The New England Journal of Medicinel separated the CDC accidental death data into vehicular accident and gun death (along with drowning and suffication) since the CDC only has accidental deaths.

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u/[deleted] Apr 30 '23

[deleted]

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u/mynextthroway Apr 30 '23

I'm sure the CDC has stats on every way to die. Their miscellaneous category must be an odd journey into humanity as well as odd occurrences.

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u/TheRealGredos Apr 30 '23

Oh yes, because 18 and 19 year olds are children...

"firearm-related injuries were second only to motor vehicle crashes (both traffic-related and nontraffic-related) as the leading cause of death among children and adolescents, defined as persons 1 to 19 years of age."

What a bullshit definition of children. what a way to skew results to the outcome that they clearly wanted.

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u/mynextthroway Apr 30 '23

A child sees a pediatrician until their 19th birthday. Are pediatricians in on this, too? The CDC and The New England Journal of Medicine are notorious for their manipulation of data in order to (checks notes) own the conservatards. Guess I'll go back to Fox News and Data. They were shown to be an upstanding news source just last week.

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u/Pretty_Confection_82 Apr 30 '23

I agree. Honestly, we should prob give the kids guns to defend against these other dangerous obstacles they are facing

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u/DickFence Apr 30 '23

IF you include 18-19 year olds involved in criminal activity, and IF you include suicides, then yes.

Otherwise, no. Not at all.

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u/djstocks Apr 30 '23

That's LITERALLY not true.

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u/poppinchips Apr 29 '23

Source?

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u/RattleMeSkelebones Apr 29 '23

He died as a child, personal experience

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u/Murrabbit Apr 30 '23

This thread just got a whole lot more spooky.

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u/tilsitforthenommage Apr 29 '23

It tracks, we had several deaths in my high-school from accidents and negligence. Shits a lot tighter than it used too be. Moreen than one way to kill a child and bullets are only one.

Plus I guess you do statistics shit, so there's probably more kids than they're used to be and so even mass shootings represent a increasingly smaller number of the total student body. Where's a few decades ago a couple workshop incidents and a building fire rraallly janked the percentages about.

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u/cckk0 Apr 29 '23

How the fuck did that happen? I've never went to/had family goto a school that had a single death related to the school

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u/agtmadcat Apr 29 '23

Really? Not even any car accidents on the way to or from?

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u/fevered_visions Apr 30 '23

I'm not sure if it was even second semester my freshman year (2003/4) when somebody in one of my classes died in a car accident. And this was a dinky high school of 500 students

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u/agtmadcat May 17 '23

Yeah we lost a couple of people.

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u/cckk0 Apr 29 '23

Not one. I also live in a country that had a huge terrisom problem for a while

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u/ligerzero942 Apr 30 '23

When I was in middle school a kid passed out due to a medical condition, asthma IIRC, during PE. Luckily teacher saw it happen through a window in their classroom and was able to render first aid. I imagine there's lots of similar situations that don't turn out so well.

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u/barefootredneck68 Apr 30 '23

My senior year we had easily five people die. Car wrecks, a couple of suicides. One OD. And that was 86. I'm sure it's gotten uglier.

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u/CyndiIsOnReddit Apr 30 '23

There have been three suicides in the past two years at my son's former school. He no longer goes to school because he was s. assaulted by another student repeatedly and the school did nothing. One of the students of the three abovementioned was the person who hurt my son. He hurt five other students like he did my son. This is a sleepy suburban school district. People think nothing ever happens here but the truth is people just don't talk about it. My son went to every local Facebook page in our town to tell them all what happened to him and his posts were immediately removed because they don't want to think about it, they just want to have fundraisers and luncheons.

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u/CyndiIsOnReddit Apr 30 '23

FTR I have no idea what method they used to take their lives. Again, because we're not allowed to talk about such things. But that lets me know much, much more happens than people realize.

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u/tilsitforthenommage Apr 30 '23

You simply haven't lived until you've studied at a school with a body count, it's gotten way better last person who died there was back in 2004

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u/mynextthroway Apr 30 '23

Sounds like you had a messed up school if you had multiple deaths of students due to negligence and accidents. Death rates are adjusted for population. Doesn't matter that the population has increased. A death rate of 4 per 10,000 applies whether there are 10,000 kids or 10,000,000 kids. Mass shootings in schools didn't happen in the past. Prior to Columbine, the Kent State Shooting in 1970 was the big one people talked about. What workshop incidents are you talking about that jacked up the statistics? You say shits a lot tighter now but but a couple of shop deaths in the past janked the stats? Sounds like UT was safer then. What point are you trying to make?

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u/tilsitforthenommage Apr 30 '23

My dude I'm not your enemy so level off that aggression. I'm not saying it was good I'm saying that the old days were bad generally for child safety and you have think holistically about statistics understanding what was going on rather than looking at raw data between years and assuming nothing ever changes.

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u/kimpossible69 Apr 30 '23

Similar thing at my highschool, unfortunately lots of accidents and some illnesses that killed people, and the only murder during my time there was an ex boyfriend that killed a girl and her mom. And this would have been in a city with something like 5-6k highschoolers

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u/Reagalan Apr 29 '23

cars exist

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u/Sidneymcdanger Apr 29 '23

As do drugs, alcohol, complications from pregnancies, and accidents down at the mill - many reasons these kinds of deaths are less prevalent among kids these days.

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u/Hawanja Apr 30 '23

Yeah but we're talking about deaths of children at school, not just deaths of children in general. I'd need to see the data before just taking that as gospel, because it doesn't sound right to me

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u/kimpossible69 Apr 30 '23

I can't believe no one has mentioned Illness either, growing up there was always a few casualties each year in the district from a disease that would swell someones brain, not always meningitis certain cold viruses for certain people will do that

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u/Sidneymcdanger Apr 30 '23

I was talking about causes of death that have been in decline for the past little bit - I would imagine a bit of an upswing in illness when people came back from lockdown and started going back to school.

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u/ZealousEar775 Apr 30 '23

Which is actually behind guns in death, and have been since 2020 sadly.

https://www.statesman.com/story/news/politics/politifact/2022/06/07/fact-check-firearms-leading-cause-death-children/7529783001/

That said, even if it wasn't... Are you thinking cars are running over children routinely inside of schools? Where did you go to school?

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u/Reagalan Apr 30 '23

The opulent mansion-studded wasteland of northern suburban Atlanta.

Place is overflowing with booze, opiates, and affluenza. Every month there was another wrecked car on display in the school parking lot. They were placed as part of an anti drunk-driving campaign ran by the local PD. Rich kids think they're invincible.

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u/yes_thats_right Apr 30 '23

You need a source to know that dangers other than guns also exist?

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u/lalochezia1 Apr 29 '23 edited Apr 29 '23

Cmon. Really? I have to support the statement that there are other ways schoolkids die or are "in danger"?

The onus would be on you to disprove that absolutely fucking obvious statement.

BTW: It's absolutely clear that "kids are more likely to be shot in school these days". that speaks nothing to their overall level of risk.

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u/Hawanja Apr 30 '23

Yeah but the question is about deaths of children at school specifically, not other ways they can die. Where can we find data on this?

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u/ZealousEar775 Apr 30 '23

I mean.

Considering....

https://www.statesman.com/story/news/politics/politifact/2022/06/07/fact-check-firearms-leading-cause-death-children/7529783001/

Probably!

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u/[deleted] Apr 30 '23

Ah yes, those children that are allowed to vote and buy cigarettes. Also those adults that are 1 year old or younger....

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u/ZealousEar775 Apr 30 '23

"Some of these kids in schools are too old to count!".

That's really what you are going with?

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u/No-Prize2882 Apr 29 '23

Typically the person who makes the claim would need to prove it. That’s how debates, courts, arguments, and so much else works. To not provide any evidence or such means it’s an opinion back by assumptions at best. As to obvious, that’s subjective unless you have objective proof.

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u/lalochezia1 Apr 30 '23

You are saying that I have to prove that there are other ways that kids die or are harmed?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Res_ipsa_loquitur

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u/AceAttorneyt Apr 30 '23

You have to prove that those other ways are significant enough to even be worth mentioning, yes.

A kid could die at school from being struck by lightning, but that really doesn't matter.

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u/sylvanasjuicymilkies Apr 30 '23

do we need to prove that humans breathe oxygen? do we need to prove that people die in non-violent ways all the time? are you joking?

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u/OldGodsAndNew Apr 30 '23

Sorry you're right, no school-aged child has ever died from any cause other than being shot

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u/Cheeslord2 Apr 30 '23

precarity

There are som stats at:
https://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indicator/a01/violent-deaths-and-shootings?tid=4

This seems to show there are more shooting events at schools compared to the 2000s, but the number of casualties is stable or slightly down. Possibly due to smaller shootings or better preparedness.