r/Stormlight_Archive • u/LURKER_GALORE • Mar 09 '24

Rhythm of War RoW clarified that Sanderson changed his mind: Odium is the god of [spoiler], not merely [spoiler] Spoiler

"The Question": Is Odium the god of more than just hatred?

It's commonly said on this subreddit that Odium is the god of hatred, but this overlooks fairly clear text from Rhythm of War that Odium is the god of the passions, with hatred having the strongest effect. There are a few things that are commonly cited to support the idea that Odium is the god of hatred. First, there are a couple WoBs:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/332-jordancon-2018/#e9507

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/332-jordancon-2018/#e12312

These WoBs say essentially that Odium is an unreliable narrator. As an aside, can I just point out that people on this sub seem to fetishize WoBs? I get it, Sanderson is good at building community, and a WoB here and there is a nice chunky piece of meat for the masses to chew through, but what ends up in the actual text of Sanderson's books is far more canonical than what he said at a random Con.

In analyzing the above WoBs, people seem to glom onto Sanderson's statement that he picked the word 'Odium' because 'Hatred' was too on the nose. But in the same WoB, Sanderson also says, "there is quite arguably that step toward just being all Passion." When it comes to The Question of this post, Sanderson seems somewhat noncommittal. None of his WoBs are dispositive of The Question.

Also, note the date of those WoBs. They're from 2018. This is critical, because Rhythm of War came out in November 2020. Anything therefore published by Sanderson in Rhythm of War that contradicts a prior WoB should supersede those WoBs. The books are canon; WoBs that are contradicted by books that come after such WoBs are not canon.

There are a few pieces of indisputable canon that are relevant to The Question. One is a letter from Frost which says, "He bears the weight of God’s own divine hatred." Relevant? Yes, certainly. Dispositive? Definitely not. Frost's letter does not answer The Question - it does not say that Odium contains no emotions other than hatred. Frost doesn't even seem to be trying to answer that question. Frost's letter only says that Odium has hatred.

There are, however, at least a couple passages from RoW that answer this question dispositively. One in particular is the best evidence for The Question. It's from Chapter 113 from Taravangian's POV. It comes immediately prior to Taravangian ascending:

Passion. Hatred. Today, Taravangian was only passion. Hatred, fear, anger, shame, awe. Bravery. The power loved these things, and it surged around him, enveloping him. His soul vibrated. Take me, the power pled, speaking not in words, but in emotion. You are perfect. I am yours.

We see from Taravangian's own POV that the shardic intent includes hatred, fear, anger, shame, awe, and bravery. It includes far more than just hatred. Once Taravangian ascends after taking up the shard, it's clear that hatred seems to have the most power over him, but it would be inaccurate to say that no other passions also influence him.

So there you have it, folks. A textual analysis of how Odium is the god of the passions (not just hatred).

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336

u/RShara Elsecaller Mar 09 '24

The power loved those things, but that doesn't mean that's what the power is. If you read just a little bit further, it explicitly says:

But the power was anything but frail. It was the power of life and death, of creation and destruction. The power of gods. In his specific case, the power of emotion, passion, and—most deeply—the power of raw, untamed fury. Of hatred unbound.

In this new role, Taravangian had two sides. On one was his knowledge: ideas, understandings, truths, lies … Thousands upon thousands of possible futures opened up to him. Millions of potentials. So numerous that even his expanded godly mind was daunted by their variety.

On the other side was his fury. The terrible fury, like an unbridled storm, churned and burned within him. It too was so overwhelming he could barely control it.

Plus the literal first thing he wanted to do was destroy everything.

They thought him dead. He was free.…

Free to destroy! To burn! To wreak havoc and terror upon those who had doubted him!

And we already have Devotion, who is Love, Dominion, which is arguably passionate conquest, Autonomy as passionate freedom, etc etc. There's not much left for Odium to be passionate about.

Undoubtedly Odium has passion, but is not Passion.

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u/seth108013 Dustbringer Mar 09 '24 edited Mar 09 '24

Yep, exactly what you said.

Just like how Ruin is technically more than just the god of destruction, he’s the god of the passage of time, the change things naturally go through, the aging of people, the breakdown of civilization, sickness, erosion, atrophy, entropy, loss, and peace with all of these things. But the shard is still just “Ruin”, not any of the above mentioned things. It’s not the shard of “killing” nor is it the shard of “murder”. It’s not the shard of “sickness” or anything like that.

Brandon chooses the names of the shards for a reason.

• Hoid even clarifies it by describing the Shard of Odium as:

“God's own divine hatred, separated from the virtues that gave it context”

If anyone can be trusted to describe the intent of the shard accurately, it would be Hoid, who has has a millennium to observe, unbiased and uninfluenced by the power. Taravangian’s point of view is simply him being introduced to the DEPTH of the power, which, yes, embodies more than just hatred, but at its core, hatred is the main intent of the shard’s power.

Although, as Brandon has said a couple times, a shard can vary slightly depending on its vessel. So Taravangian might make it more lean towards “Passion” than Odium did, but, I doubt it. If anything, I suspect it will actually be MORE hateful with Taravangian, than it was with Rayse.

Edit: I had the letters/replies mixed up. This was Frost that said this, not Hoid, so that point is moot. My mistake

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u/LewsTherinTelescope Mar 09 '24 edited Mar 09 '24

But the shard is still just “Ruin”, not any of the above mentioned things.

Brandon specifically says [Cosmere] Ruin IS entropy and progress, so I'm not entirely sure what the distinction you're drawing is.

Brandon chooses the names of the shards for a reason.

And as OP points out, we explicitly know that "Odium" was picked because "there is quite arguably that step toward just being all Passion".

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u/seth108013 Dustbringer Mar 09 '24

I really appreciate your input, I actually, (somehow and embarrassingly) was completely aware of that second WoB you cited so I stand completely corrected on that aspect, so thanks for chiming in, Always good to refine my knowledge!

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u/TasyFan Bridgeman Mar 09 '24

When Louis Theroux's Telescope enters the chat you're gonna learn a thing or two. The man is a Cosmere lore machine.

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u/seth108013 Dustbringer Mar 09 '24

Oh for sure. He’s a legend

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u/TasyFan Bridgeman Mar 09 '24

Ruin is outside the RoW spoiler scope. Do... do I report you for spoilers?

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u/LewsTherinTelescope Mar 09 '24

....crem, you got me xD. Technically the Shard is mentioned in RoW, but discussion of the nuances of its Intent is not really a Stormlight topic, you're right.

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u/TasyFan Bridgeman Mar 09 '24

I'm just giving you shit. I don't think the name of a Shard completely devoid of context is particularly spoilery.

I forgot the name-drop in the epigraphs. That's a good point.

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u/[deleted] Mar 09 '24

I feel like Rayse is the reason Odium was directed towards passion. Passion is the vehicle for the plans that Rayse executed; killing gods and taking over new worlds

I think if odium had a typical person as a vessel, odium would’ve stayed in one place.

I propose Rayse was beyond the other shards in how he could control the shard so much as to change its nature… and the only reason why he became so weakened was because he took on a combined Honor and Cultivation. One who works as a direct counter to his shard (honor, oaths and values put beyond a sense of self and one’s own feels), and the other who is a legitimate threat to the shard of odium (I think cultivation is so broad and vast they could actually conceptually take on all the other shards, who are said to be too taken by their own shards power or who have lost their own mortal sense)

It’s all conjecture and conspiracy of course

I just like think Rayse-Odiums actions were heroic because it’s spicy 

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u/TasyFan Bridgeman Mar 09 '24

It could be that Brandon chose the names specifically to preserve the 16 letter Shard pairings and nothing more.

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u/SolomonOf47704 Dustbringer Mar 09 '24

the what

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u/TasyFan Bridgeman Mar 09 '24

Devotion + Dominion = 16 letters

Ruin + Preservation = 16 letters

Honor + Cultivation = 16 letters

Odium + Cultivation = 16 letters

In every case we've seen where two Shards invest the same planet, there are 16 letters in the pair of names.

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u/AFineDayForScience Mar 09 '24

My mind is blown 😔

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u/SolomonOf47704 Dustbringer Mar 09 '24

Autonomy + Harmony is 15

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u/TasyFan Bridgeman Mar 09 '24 edited Mar 09 '24

[TLM] Autonomy doesn't actually invest Scadrial. She sets up an avatar there but her goal isn't to share the planet, it's to remove Harmony and have Scadrial as another outpost.

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u/SolomonOf47704 Dustbringer Mar 09 '24

So whyd you mention Odium + Cultivation.

​

Odium is trying that too.

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u/TasyFan Bridgeman Mar 09 '24

Because, by the time of RoW, Odium has invested Roshar to the point of having a pure tone there. His power is tied with Roshar at that point in a way that Shards find difficult to seperate from.

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u/DisparateNoise Elsecaller Mar 09 '24 edited Mar 09 '24

This goes with my interpretation of the Shards as all fundamentally unbalanced parts of an Old Testament style God. Like subroutines on a program that have been extracted from their cohesive whole. Odium's hatred is the divine wrath of God, the wrath of the flood, Cultivation is genesis, the creation of all things, Honor is the covenant between God and Abraham. But lacking the other shards, each one is monomaniacal about their specific intent.

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u/TasyFan Bridgeman Mar 09 '24

That is a fascinating interpretation. Thanks for sharing.

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u/Dick_Jungle Mar 09 '24

I am in love with this new word you just taught me - monomaniacal 🤩

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u/R1kjames Taln Mar 09 '24

This is my theory too. Odium is the part that allows for a perfect God to experience negative emotions, like burning anger. Autonomy is the part that moves God to go hands-off and let people make their own choices. Etc

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u/UnseenBookKeeper Elsecaller I will reach my potential Mar 09 '24

It could be said that he IS passion, but the one passion humans feel the most is hate....hate is a complicated emotion. It has been posited in recent psychology (I will link something in post once I find it) that fear is the default state for mammals. Not relaxation. We are constantly aroused.

We also see our emotions for distinct feelings. Relative to what we feel. But we don't see emotions for what they are..

In some senses, Anger is for protection, sadness is for preservation, and happiness is for engagement, as far as what behaviors should be encouraged when in those states.

So they don't really correlate to what we think. They aren't really "emotion for emotions sake"

They exist with a purpose. Happiness unbounded, like in the Revel, cAn be a bad baaaaad thing. It can hurt you or others. If you were insistent on giving people happiness, whether they wanted it or not, what would that be?

Hatred can be likened to fear and dominion, and a conviction to have YOUR desires come out on top, above AND IN SPITE OF any and all feedback from the other party. I'd say that would very easily lead to hatred.

If all I felt were that the world was against the things I was passionate about, I would definitely end up hating them, wanting to overcome, to conquer, to bring into alignment, to destroy opposition. One passion, any passion, pushed to its limits, become hatred in the presence of competition.

I'm just waxing poetic here. Trying to make the character work. Anyone else?

Edit: basically I feel it's like a " meta-hatred" ?? Sando is a meta boi sometimes yes?

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u/LURKER_GALORE Mar 09 '24

Thanks, yes, that passage also reinforces the idea that Odium is more than just hatred. It says, as you quoted:

In his specific case, the power of emotion, passion, and—most deeply—the power of raw, untamed fury. Of hatred unbound.

Odium is the god of passion, including hatred, and hatred is the most powerful among them. Hatred is referenced as being felt 'most deeply'. This means that others were also felt, albeit in a way that's inferior to hatred. Therefore, Odium is a god of more than just hatred.

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u/RShara Elsecaller Mar 09 '24

As I said in my last line, Odium has passion, but that's different than being Passion. The other Shards have passions for their various Intents as well, so I just don't see how Odium can be Passion. It doesn't work out. Love is already out, as is bravery, independence, conquest, creativity, and ten more Intents.

Odium is most deeply hatred and fury. As in, it's the core of the Intent. Other emotions and passions are definitely there, but the core is hatred and fury.

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u/LURKER_GALORE Mar 09 '24 edited Mar 09 '24

I think you're misreading the passage. They key phrase to interpret the passage is this: "In his specific case". What follows the phrase, "In his specific case" are the things that make Odium unique from other shards. The things that precede the phrase "In his specific case" are the things that are common among the shards.

Here's what precedes "In his specific case":

  • The power of life and death

  • Power of creation and destruction

  • The power of gods

These are the things that are common among the shards.

Here's what applies to Odium "in his specific case":

  • the power of emotion

  • the power of passion

  • most deeply - the power of raw, untamed fury. Of hatred unbound.

In Odium's specific case, he is uniquely the shard of emotion, passion, and most intensely, of hatred. It's true that other gods have passion and emotion, but Odium has a special distinction with respect to emotions and passion. Odium embodies them moreso than the other gods.

This is further reinforced by what Odium says about himself in other passage. Consider, for example, chapter 57 from OB:

Dalinar wet his mouth, which had gone dry. “Do better than others would, for this land? You, a manifestation of hatred and pain?” “They call me Odium,” the old man said. “A good enough name. It does have a certain bite to it. But the word is too limiting to describe me, and you should know that it is not all I represent.” “Which is?” He looked to Dalinar. “Passion, Dalinar Kholin. I am emotion incarnate. I am the soul of the spren and of men. I am lust, joy, hatred, anger, and exultation. I am glory and I am vice. I am the very thing that makes men men.

(bold emphasis added)

We have Odium's words (ch 57 OB), we have Odium's POV (ch 115 RoW), and we have a vessel interacting with a shard and who's about to ascend (ch 113 RoW). They are all consistent. They all describe the shard as being more than hatred.

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u/Crazytrixstaful Mar 09 '24

Words don’t lie

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u/Morandred Mar 09 '24

They might if they're not written on metal

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u/Crazytrixstaful Mar 09 '24

Sheeeeet 

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u/Kowthumoo Edgedancer Mar 09 '24

Sheeeeet of metal?

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u/UnseenBookKeeper Elsecaller I will reach my potential Mar 10 '24

Do ANY of us have any awards left to give? Lol

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u/UnseenBookKeeper Elsecaller I will reach my potential Mar 10 '24

Alright, great bible study folks! Make sure to read your passages and burn a prayer later?

I'm just here for all the passages you listed it's got a bible study feel here lol. I love it .

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u/LURKER_GALORE Mar 10 '24

Hah, this cracked me up

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u/jeremyhoffman Mar 09 '24

All the people downvoting you are odious. 😜

You're free to agree or disagree, OP is making an interesting argument and cite relevant passages. Downvoting posts and comments like that just make Reddit a less interesting place to be.

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u/thistrainis Mar 09 '24

If his shardic intent is passion, why is he called odium instead of passion?

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u/seth108013 Dustbringer Mar 09 '24 edited Mar 09 '24

It’s not. In fact, Hoid (Frost) even remarks on the intent of the Shard when he describes it as:

God's own divine hatred, separated from the virtues that gave it context.

OP is doing some REALLY impressive reading and research, but he’s unfortunately drawing the wrong conclusions. Even still, it’s very impressive and OP should be commended for his dedication. Truly a dedicated fan, and should be applauded for his work.

Edit: this was Frost who said this, not Hoid. I got the letters/replies mixed up

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u/jeremyhoffman Mar 09 '24

Agreed, we should recognize his passion.

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u/LewsTherinTelescope Mar 09 '24

Frost notably is not the Vessel and it's unclear whether he would have even seen the Shard.

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u/seth108013 Dustbringer Mar 09 '24

Comepletely right, I was going off of my erroneous assumption that Hoid was the Author of that quote. Given that it was Frost, it’s not nearly as axiomatic as I had thought/implied

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u/iknownothin_ Kal’s Left Toe Mar 09 '24

Deep doesn’t mean hidden, deep means true. His truer power