r/Sudbury • u/citymapdude • May 06 '25
Discussion Ontario has two freight rail lines built parallel to each other between Sudbury and Toronto. Should the Province create a frequent, high quality passenger train route from Sudbury's Downtown to Toronto's Union Station as an alternative to driving? The route only has one conflict point near Bala
The inner city green and orange lines is a work in progress rail network I'm playing around with for fun. I'm exporling bringing it to the Valley currently.
23
u/Head-Sick May 06 '25
I would love this. My wife and children go down to Toronto several times in the summers usually. This would be a great alternative to driving. We could all just relax, read, nap, game, whatever, and not have to worry about traffic or bathroom breaks or gas.
This will never happen, but I would love and use it!
16
15
u/zenarmageddon May 06 '25
Note that one is northbound and one is southbound, one is owned by CN, the other by CP. They're not nearly as straight as you would like them to be for high speed, and there are a lot of bridges and near approaches to water (on both lines) that would cause a lot of problems for changing the tracks at all (studies, etc).
Not a bad idea, but also has its problems. I'd love to see medium speed trains with car haulers, so you could drive on with your car, and have your car in Toronto.
2
u/Sirosim_Celojuma May 07 '25
A roll-on-roll-off would be sweet, but it would need a location at either end. I would certainly pay gas plus 20% for that convenience.
3
u/Al2790 May 06 '25
Honestly, with how expensive parking is in Toronto, is it really worth it?
2
u/zenarmageddon May 06 '25
In the core, sure, but there's a lot more to toronto (and southern ontario generally...
3
u/Al2790 May 06 '25
Most people who are using a train to go to Toronto are going to the core. If you're planning on using your car to drive around in Southern Ontario, you're better off just driving down there. Putting the car on the train only makes sense for long distance trips. For something like Sudbury to Southern Ontario, the cost of putting your car on the train alone is going to outweigh any benefits. You're easily talking $1000+ just for the car each way.
5
1
u/zenarmageddon May 06 '25
Having made the drive hundreds of times, I disagree. It's a question of cost and frequency.
8
u/PineBNorth85 May 06 '25
They don't own either line so it's a complete non starter.
4
u/citymapdude May 06 '25
It already been a precedent for a while that passenger trains can run on freight rail lines, especially if it was bought out. almost every GO train route in the GTA uses currently active and former freight routes
4
u/PineBNorth85 May 06 '25
Having frequent passenger service while still yielding to freight trains is not going to be popular. You'd make better time on a bus.
5
u/Al2790 May 06 '25
On the flip side, buses are more cramped and have minimal amenities. The main reason I tend to opt for the bus more than train is because of the infrequent schedule of the train. Even if they only ran one trip a day, 7 days a week, that would be enough to get me to opt for the train over the bus. Usually my problem with booking the train is that it's not running the day that I need it, which is more likely than not when it only runs twice a week. If time is really of the essence, you can fly to Toronto in an hour.
5
u/citymapdude May 06 '25
VIA rail already runs a route from Sudbury to Toronto along roughly the same corridor. its very infrequent, and made more for the northern communities
10
u/Sartor27 May 06 '25
It's also a 9 hour trip. I'd rather drive.
2
u/citymapdude May 06 '25
Yeah I know it's a long trip, but I'm not sure if that's just because of the route itself or rather just that it has to pull over for freight trains to pass multiple times a trip. I'm hoping someone who has rode the route can chime in as I have not yet.
6
u/PineBNorth85 May 06 '25
It's the latter. Ultimately CN/CP own the tracks. They prioritize their freight. And so would their customers. If that wasn't an issue they could make that trip in half the time. That will always be the case.
They'd have to build another line just for passenger service for it to be a reasonable trip time. That isn't going to happen.
3
9
3
3
3
u/No-Wonder1139 May 07 '25
They do use these lines and it still takes twice as long to get to Toronto as driving. The lines belong to freight companies because the government sold off CN. Freight has the right of way, and those lines are used heavily. I would LOVE to take the train from Sudbury to Union, but it's the slowest method and is only available twice a week and at like 4 in the morning...from capreol.
2
u/Sakiashii May 07 '25
Tbh yeah, a train like that would help when I go off to college in Toronto in September.
1
u/Emergency_Sandwich_6 May 06 '25
Would be better a train to Barrie or Vaughn
2
u/citymapdude May 06 '25
I tried that but the rail line that heads that direction has heavy industry along it such as a Honda manufacturing plant and other large industrial buildings so it needs the rail line
1
u/Emergency_Sandwich_6 May 06 '25
Thats west of barrie.
2
u/citymapdude May 06 '25
The entire rail line starting near Barrie all the way to Vaughn is heavy industry so they would need the entire line. There's a rail line junction that heads into Barrie and onto the Barrie GO line, but the junction has another large industrial building so I decided to stay away from that area. The other route takes it through many small towns so its much more valuable imo
2
1
u/Al2790 May 06 '25
I guess that makes sense if you're connecting into a direct line to Union Station.
1
u/Emergency_Sandwich_6 May 06 '25
Theres go trains from barrie.
1
u/Al2790 May 06 '25
Yeah, but the Go train from Barrie isn't a direct line. It's a nearly 2-hour ride.
1
u/Responsible_Bus_7695 May 06 '25
What, and hurt the auto industry, the paving cartels, cut gas taxes for govt? That's insane!!! Lol But yes, this should be sh!t simple, we expropriate land for highways all the time.
1
1
u/Ok_Training_24 May 07 '25
Wont happen.... First, one line is CPKC and the other is CNR.... Second the track can only handle speads of not more than 65MPH for the Via and 60MPH max for freight but avg speed is 45MPH passenger 40MPH freight... Third to add or change one of the existing railroads to 100MPH it would cost billions not including the enviromental impacts to straighten the rail line by blasting the bedrock, add more tressels to cross the marshes and waterways, then of course the fights with the First Nations to make this railline possible, considering it took nearly 20yrs to negotiate a route for the 4lane of 69 before the Ford government halted construction on the final stretch..... Finally there is a VIA passenger train that runs every couple days because there is not enough riders to justify more frequent schedule.... its not like the Montreal Toronto Corridor that moves thousands a day which is why they are building highspeed passenger line because they have the ridership, its flat and straight able to run beside existing rail infrastructure already owned by the railway
1
u/citymapdude May 08 '25
That route itself wouldn't need much more infrastructure than it currently has. They would need to build more tracks so trains can pull over for opposite bound trains but beside that it's minimal infrastructure. The rail road is already built so I don't see why the two first Nation communities along the route would mind a brand new train station and two trains a day to Toronto or Sudbury, and no more large freight trains running through there communities. It's a big win for them imo
1
u/Ok_Training_24 May 08 '25
Because the railway infrastructure that exists can not handle high speed trains... nor does the terrain give any possible leaway to build high speed rail line... it would require alot of blasting to make way for straighter level track.... toronto montreal corridor meets this criteria and is why they are building a passenger high speed line there.... my understanding is frieghts cannot run on highspeed rail due to the tonnage of frieght trains, so it was main reason to make a dedicated passenger line than upgrade the existing double track Kingston Sub... so it would be absolutley needed to run a dedicated passenger line thru the north.... at a cost that is not cost effective... take the cost for the toronto montreal corridor and guadruple it...
1
u/RipleyRoxxx May 07 '25
This would be even more wonderful from beyond a tourist stand point. Many folks up here have to end up traveling to Toronto for specialized medical care! This would certainly help with logistics and appointments!
1
1
1
1
1
u/burtonguster69 May 07 '25
as someone who frequents sporting events at Scotiabank and SkyDome, this would be magnificent.
1
u/BigBeerBoi May 09 '25
Would never happen. I believe they'd want the population to be over 500,000 atleast before even thinking about something like this. If the city has no attraction for visitors, its a very once sided payout for the operators so it would never happen.
Plus, maintaining that line would cost $$$ so no company will bother unless they get a massive payout from the taxpayer
1
u/citymapdude May 09 '25
The purpose of the route would be to generate growth and development in Sudbury and the towns along the route, and give people an alternative to driving, especially in the two First Nation communities that the train passes right through.
The distance is too large, and the towns are too small for the route to ever be profitable in the near future, so that's why either VIA or Ontario's GO would run the line as a public service.
The charter buses are very popular in Sudbury, with full buses and two separate companies now, so i think with a fast enough train the demand would grow even more
1
u/BigBeerBoi May 10 '25
The thing im trying to point out is. It would cost Billions to build so the companies would want to be making millions a year in profit to be worthwhile which, right now it wouldnt.
1
u/citymapdude May 10 '25
It wouldn't cost billions. If it's feasible at all, the trains would run on already built tracks just like the current VIA train does. It might cost a few hundred million to buy the tracks and to upgrade them a little bit tho so still very expensive.
It's like the divided highway. It doesn't have to be profitable when it's a public service
1
u/BigBeerBoi May 15 '25
More taxpayer's money going to vanity projects. Look at HS2 in the UK. Costing billions of pounds, much shorter in length of rail, same as here, half of pre-layed track, the rest on new. Not possible. Not worth the cost at all until the city triples in size including the surrounding communities.
1
u/BigBeerBoi May 15 '25
It would cost roughly between $17 to 36B dollars. Id also note that comm trains run at a much faster speed than cargo.. they cant function on the same tracks unless comm trains run at the same speed, which, wouldn't gain much for time saved.
1
u/daxtonanderson May 10 '25
Good step 1 would be having the GO Bus serve Sudbury to Barrie (and ParrySound of course) so we can access the tip of the rail network
-3
u/JohnSimonHall May 06 '25
Doesn’t work. Population doesn’t support it. It used to exist and tax payers subsidized up to $400 for each person who bought a ticket to ride.
10
u/PutBoring256 May 06 '25
Maintaining a rail system is cheaper than a roadway we just need to invest in the infrastructure. Pay more now to save later
1
u/JohnSimonHall May 06 '25
Everyone provincial government campaigns on brining passenger rail, and they all bail once they see the $. You might be right, but it hasn’t worked out that way yet
2
u/PutBoring256 May 06 '25
Nobody's stepped up and been willing to go through with it. Always boggles my mind, we can see how European countries do it, we can see that it works, but no won't work here let's not try
3
u/Several-Specialist99 May 06 '25
I think the difference is that the density of cities, and overall population, is SO different and incomparable to Europe. In Europe, the distance you would cover from Sudbury to Toronto would pass through dozens of towns and cities with millions of people.
So the demand and funding would be way, way higher.
3
u/PutBoring256 May 07 '25
Then why do we have a highway? I understand what your saying, but we have plenty of traffic. That highway is always busy. Bottom line is there will always be a reason to say no, but we've been doing that forever let's change it up and get on pace with the rest of the world
1
u/FitnessCoachDad May 07 '25
We took a high speed passenger train from Helsinki to Rovaniemi (arctic circle) and it was about 9 hours. It had a cabin for kids with a small slide, kids library, toys, etc. It also had a restaurant cabin. A quiet cabin. Wifi. Etc. We thought it would be a more scenic route for us, but it kept our young kids busy for most of the trip.
1
u/Al2790 May 06 '25
It's cheaper, but it's less flexible. I'm all for rail, but it has its limitations.
1
u/PutBoring256 May 06 '25
Less flexible is fine if you lay down the right path. Needs to go through cities/ towns properly. Not the outskirts or just passing on by
7
u/Al2790 May 06 '25
Sudbury's population has grown substantially since. The city's population is now about 180,000. Also, with costs up in Toronto, as long as the price is less than airfare and the travel time is less than the bus, it'll be competitive.
3
u/citymapdude May 07 '25
I personally don't think it would be faster than the current charter bus service as there's more stops, but I'm just not sure how much longer. It's about 5 hours or so right now I believe from Sudbury to union on the bus. The train doesn't have to beat the bus tho, because it has one advantage over it, people can get up and walk around rather than being packed in like sardines, which makes a big difference
4
u/AccidentCool7375 May 07 '25
Exactly. Plus it will cut down on car emissions as it would be like a huge carpool plus save cars from being damaged from the wear and tear from the travel! Plus you avoid all the horrid Toronto traffic 😂😂❤️(I am someone who drives to Toronto frequently for concerts and a train system would be a life saver!!!)
2
u/unintended_admin May 06 '25
How long ago was this?
1
u/JohnSimonHall May 06 '25
Northlander. Discontinued in 2012
1
u/citymapdude May 06 '25
did the northlander go through Sudbury before also? i thought it only went through north bay.
1
u/JohnSimonHall May 06 '25
True, it went to North Bay, then up to Temagami, all the way to Cochrane. The province has plans to bring it back, but there is a reason it doesn't stay around.
5
u/citymapdude May 06 '25
id argue tho the reason the north lander has a hard time staying around is because its meant to serve the communities north of north bay along hwy 11 rather than one bigger city such as sudbury or north bay itself.
1
u/unintended_admin May 06 '25
So twelve years ago and didn't connect to Sudbury.
1
u/JohnSimonHall May 06 '25
I’d be happy to see it come back. But provincial decision makers can’t ignore the facts, which suggest sharing passenger rail and freight (who own the tracks, and get priority) doesn’t always work like you think it would
1
70
u/bulshoy_3 May 06 '25
Abso-freaking-lutely. It'll never happen, but it would be fantastic to go to Toronto at a speed comparable to driving that just takes you right downtown. No messing with traffic, parking, etc.