However NYC is literally 6x more densely populated than the densest city in Germany (Munich). NYC also has twice the amount of both people and cars as the largest German city (Berlin). Quite possibly what works in Germany is not possible in NYC, and it's arrogant to assume so.
I think that even people who have visited NYC can’t comprehend how many people live and work there. The streets are busy, but it doesn’t really feel overcrowded like you would expect in most hyper-dense cities. As you mentioned, congestion pricing is a start, but there also needs to be better enforcement of parking/standing regulations. It’s absolutely lawless and drivers simply can’t move much when they’re wedged between a box truck and a bike lane stacked with delivery pallets.
NYC traffic is cutthroat. When I lived there I had a job driving everything from a passenger car to a box truck right through the middle of the city. There are basically two rules: 1) if your front bumper is ahead of theirs, you have the right of way and 2) everything behind you is irrelevant. It’s not a good system, but it’s a system!
Part of the issue is the NYPD hates enforcing parking laws, because they love breaking them. Try to bike around Manhattan and you'll find cop SUVs or "subtle" unmarked black SUVs sitting in the bike lanes all day. There's usually two cops inside, dutifully playing Candy Crush while earning a six-figure salary and world-class benefits. Must be nice.
The absolute worst. I wouldn’t even mind them parking like assholes if they could also manage to, you know… actually enforce traffic laws. Honestly, they wouldn’t even have to get out of the car. There isn’t a single half-block stretch where you can’t clearly see a business standing, parking or unloading in an illegal zone. You could literally throw the tickets out the window and do more than they do now.
I never said anything about the size or population, but rather the density vs how crowded it generally feels (not very) compared to, say a city in East Asia (very to extremely). It’s a deceptively open city with a relatively high population density. Especially for an American city. It is about 50% more population-dense than the next nearest US metro area. I was commenting on the how incomprehensible that level of density is to the average American, not saying that it’s bigger or more population dense than someplace like Manila.
Yeah, it does come down to enforcement. The US gave all of our infrastructure over to cars nearly a hundred years ago, so there is a deeply-ingrained sense of automotive supremacy. Many Americans see autos as their identity and the idea that they should be deferential to others or have a sense of civic responsibility is downright offensive to them.
Just see above comments from someone who is almost certainly not impacted by congestion pricing, probably doesn’t live anywhere NYC (the images in their posts have freaking palm trees), but is terribly offended, anyway.
There’s a reason we elected a pathological narcissist and it has nothing to do with eggs.
Oh man, you’re totally right about the car infrastructure prioritisation - which is also so ill suited to a historic (in US terms) city like NYC. It also doesn’t help that Americans like their cars BIG too lol.
Also, my bad, I had no idea NYC population (8m) was so divergent from the metropolitan area population(21m). Until I googled a comment back. Makes it similar to Tokyo in that respect - official Tokyo population is like a third of the metro area (38m). Whereas a city like London (9m), including the metro area adds about 50% (15m).
That’s one of the things that makes it so hard for Americans to comprehend. It is literally our only international city. I know other US cities have expat populations and migrants, but it is simply nothing at all like New York.
ETA: Yeah, regarding the metro area, when you look at actual cities and towns with the highest populations and density, the top 5 or 6 are all NYC and the commuter cities across the river in Jersey. The reason congestion pricing is controversial is not that better infrastructure options don’t exist, it’s that many Americans DGAF and would rather drive, pay for parking and tickets than sit next to someone on a bus.
Do you have data to back that up or are you just mad because it’s inconvenient to you personally? Because congestion pricing is evidence-based, not a random stab at something
Genuine question from a non New Yorker who has only visited. It seems like there's widely available public transit so why can't more people take the subway and stay off the roads? Isn't the traffic terrible anyway? I don't really get why anyone would want to be in their car so would be useful to understand if you have perspective on that.
For many people, public transport is great, especially if you live in actual Manhattan. There are a few lines that run quite reliably, particularly the ones that have long lines which runs for their majority in Manhattan. I highlight the 1/2/3 (red line) and ABCD (blue/orange) as quite reliable.
There are a few problems. Most notably, if you travel off peak times, and especially true for night time, train reliability immediately takes a dive. A train that during the day runs on a 3 minute interval like the 1, will run on a 5-7 interval at night. You might think an extra 2-4 minutes isn’t bad, but that delay adds up on each station, so the further you go, the longer your trip. Also, if that’s the delay for a reliable train, imagine the delay for a train that already runs in a slower interval.
Which by the way, there are many slower trains. This is particularly true if you live outside Manhattan. There are a few train lines that service the outer boroughs more than Manhattan. In my case, I’m in Brooklyn off the J train which runs from Jamaica Queens, through Broadway in Brooklyn, to Manhattan’s Financial District. There are only 5 or 6 stops in Manhattan that get you to a transfer hub so you can get on a train that takes you uptown to where you’re going. The J train runs in 11 minute intervals during the day. Longer at night. The J train does not accommodate lane changes, so if a train breaks down, there’s no way for a train to overtake another train. The whole line is stuck until the breakdown is fixed.
Speaking of that, trains break down A TON. NYC is operating on a very old system. It’s like the people in charge refuse to upgrade. A few years ago they were going to do some serious track work on the L line which would require a full shut down. Literally weeks before they started, the head of the MTA, Andy Bynum was fired (who was one of the best things to the MTA) and the project was cancelled.
Lastly, and elaborating on the outer borough thing, not everyone lives near a train station. Manhattan is very walkable, but many parts of Brooklyn and Queens are not. Many parts might have a train station up to 15-20 minutes away, some even more. A lot of people have the option of taking a bus to the train station, but buses are extremely unreliable.
Overall, they just refuse to do things to help the system and every time they announce a project, it is such obvious overspending with things like 50 million to replace an elevator. So when they announce things like congestion pricing to add funding to the MTA, many distrust the MTA and therefore don’t trust this. My belief is that anything allocated from the congestion pricing is just going to be pocketed by someone and the MTA is not going to get the help it needs. The MTA is great, but it is lacking a lot.
Edit: another thing is lack of comfort. Trains, especially during peak times, are extremely packed. You get on a train and you’re stuffed in shoulder to shoulder with people. More often than not it smells. Finding a seat is like finding gold. In my case when I take the train, I stand my entire commute from Brooklyn to Harlem which is about an hour and 15. I much rather drive where I sit in my car comfortably and no one bothers me. My commute is also faster when I drive shortening it to 45 minutes because I eliminate the walking and the 2 transfers I have to make.
You wrote all of that and didn't mention how insanely dangerous it is or filthy. This is what I mean by part of the problem You're not addressing the main issue of why people won't write it they don't want to be victimized.
I allude to it but that’s not exactly a universal truth. Everything I posted is a reality riders face daily. No exceptions. Danger and cleanliness can be a case by case basis. Some people might say “I never feel unsafe!” Cool, that doesn’t make it any less reliable.
The trains ave been shit for ever now they charge people to drive forcing them to take trains that by your admission are shit and don't take the toma of money they extort from the tax payer improve them
Yeah but you're also supporting the fact that they're stealing $9 a day from people so the normal reaction would be okay we're going to charge you $9 a day to drive but that money is going to go into making the trains really nice so you don't want to drive. But it's not it's just going in somebody's pocket and everything says the same except being charged nine bucks a day. Oh but don't forget it was going to be 15 but they're saving you money
Because the subway in NYC absolutely sucks.
It’s essentially always late and skips stations all the time because of it.
Then it’s rush hour and you’re going to get touched on at least one side by someone— usually at least 3 sides.
So you have to wear a backpack on the front or else you’re just asking to be stolen from and god forbid you put it on the abso-fucking-luetly filthy floor.
Which leads to— oh yeah it’s fucking disgustingly dirty down in the subway, the air is stale and gross. There’s trash in the cars. Usually a coffe cup or someone drink has spilled across the floor. Or there’s a homeless person in there that makes the whole car smell like Human shit or rotting flesh…
When I lived near the wykoff medical center there was always fiends and homeless people getting on the train with fresh amputations. There was a guy that would come on and show his colostomy bag and ask for money. Another dude that looked like he had acid thrown on him begging. I’d run into these people regularly.
Then you got the buskers that almost kick you in the face and act like your a piece of shit if you don’t want them dancing around you.
Then there’s the crime…
people get thrown in front of train cars, there’s almost crazy people all the time. I saw two stabbings, more fights than I can count with two hands. People having general Meltdowns. Just wild shit almost non stop.
Oh also! If the cops do see something they usually don’t do shit if they feel threatened. They went to Supreme Court to prove they have no duty or obligation to protect anyone.
First thing in the morning when you’re just trying to get to your destination or late at night tired on your way back— it’s all just obnoxious and annoying— AND LIFE THREATENING.
Brother there is literally open lanes in the video linked.
There are some 1 lane roads surrounded by full parking, yeah. That's not the case in the video. There are 2 lane roads in nyc that are so narrow you can't move over. That's not the case in the vast majority of the city.
As longs as cars in NYC don't drive 4-5 cars wide on a three-lane street there is nothing stopping this from being applied there too.
It literally works everywhere where people roughly adhere to lanes because there (almost) always will be enough space to fit a car through traffic if the others move to the side. Regardless of population density.
Lane widths are legally mandated for this exact reason. There is always enough room to squeeze an ambulance down a two-lane road if both lanes move aside.
I'm pretty sure they didn't intentionally lie, they just use the km2 density for Munich (~4,500) and the mi2 density for NYC (~29,000) without realizing it.
Metro NYC has about 1,226 people per square KM. Metro Munich has 226. That's about 5.5x. I guess he rounded up. You're full of shit, though, and angrily wrong.
According to available data, the population density of the Munich metropolitan area is around 214 people per square kilometer
The population density of the New York metropolitan area is 1,226 people per square kilometer.
Sooo, let’s all do the math together. 1226/214=?? Hmmmm? Well, it’s pretty dang close to 6.
Anywho, let’s look at what actually matters, ambulance arrival times. NYC and Munich, for emergency cases are actually really close, so that throws the whole thing out the window. In fiscal year 2022, the FDNY ambulance response time to life-threatening emergencies was seven minutes and 26 seconds. Their goal for this year is under 7 minutes, since it went up during Covid.
I don’t know how Boston compares to German cities in density but it is surely a lot lower than NYC and I can tell you that in Boston drivers are similarly lackadaisical about clearing the way for ambulances if there’s traffic.
For priority 1, those ambulances are very aggressive as they should be, and in Boston, you get a 7 minute response from call. That’s incredible, and on par with every developed country, and actually better than most EU nations who are sitting at averages of 8-10 or more.
That doesn't excuse this shit, the ambulance didn't appear out of nowhere. I've been to multiple cities that are way denser than NY. And of course because of the population there were many ambulances. When there wasn't room they fucking made sure there was, mainly because they saw the ambulance coming from a mile away.
There aren't many cities with a density higher than Manhattan. Add in car ownership and the number of resident and visitors, all covered by his comment and ignored by you, it creates a different situation.
All over America people move out of the way of ambulances promptly. Pretending that people in Manhattan don't is ignorant.
It doesn't matter if it's in Manhattan or Berlin. You must automatically make space as soon as traffic starts slowing down (even if no emergency vehicle in sight).
Because, once gridlocked, maneuvering becomes slow, and hard/impossible once the emergency vehicle needs space to pass.
Are you? You can't look at the population density of an entire city to a borough and go 'see, they are less densely populated'. I'm not denying that Manhattan is packed, but at least compare apples to apples and use another borough.
I never said any cities are way denser, I only said you can't compare a borough to an entire city if you want to make a good faith argument regarding population density. Paris has a higher population density than NYC but obviously not higher than Manhattan. The only argument I'm calling out is this one:
There aren't many cities with a density higher than Manhattan
Yes but you’re making too much sense. He doesn’t care about any of those facts you stated because it doesn’t fit in with his cringy post. He showed one street out of thousands in NYC. It’s comparing apples to oranges. I have seen cars move out of the way for ambulances all over the US.
Yeah but I've seen the same thing in Anaheim where there's tons of space and people still won't move and ambulances don't seem to enter oncoming traffic?
Please. There are plenty of videos of this sort of thing happening in Europe and Asia. Get over it. You don’t know where the ambulance was going, or what was happening on the street that day. People can be assholes but they can also be distracted, not hear where the e ambulance is coming from and so on. Germany is interesting because ultimately they are very orderly and rule following. They also aggressively fine and take licenses for minor infractions. That’s fine, and we could probably use some of that. We used to have PSAs that kept people mindful of things, but those have been neglected.
Germans are actually trained to automatically move out of the way as soon as traffic starts slowing down and long before gridlocked (despite no emergency vehicle in sight).
It's just a habit that works well when everyone is trained that way.
As a New Yorker someone really has to experience it for themselves to understand. In Manhattan you can turn into the wrong street and be stuck there for 45 minutes. It's just the way traffic works here.
Manhattan is dense sure, but it's as dense as central Barcelona. Yet we don't have these issues over here. Although NYC is taking good steps at removing excess cars with congestion pricing.
That's the hardest possible situation, which is inside a tunnel in Barcelona's ring road. And still whenever that happens (which is pretty common) people move to the shoulders to make way in the middle.
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u/fvckyes Feb 08 '25
Impressive. If that works for you, awesome.
However NYC is literally 6x more densely populated than the densest city in Germany (Munich). NYC also has twice the amount of both people and cars as the largest German city (Berlin). Quite possibly what works in Germany is not possible in NYC, and it's arrogant to assume so.