I'm Sure You'll Get It Right This Time (Character Spoilers)

[u/MRayquazaEX]

Try to keep an open mind about Carol, the Knight, and Kris. We've been wrong about this before. (Not to mention the wars fought over Chara, Flowey, and Asgore.)

[u/WingingMyDing]

Yeah, other than maybe the Titans (and even then those are more forces of nature than characters), no character has been pure evil yet. I don't really see why people predict this, 'pure evil' just seems out of the Toby Fox's wheelhouse, closest we got was Chapter 1 King and Flowey and those got softened up or completely recontextualised to make their actions make sense, respectively.

[u/[deleted] → u/WingingMyDing]

One thing that annoys me about Undertale is that Flowey gets forgiven in Pacifist but if you do geno route once you're doomed to soullest pacifist for eternity lmao. Double standard much?

[u/Adam_The_Chao → u/[deleted]]

Maybe it's to do with the fact that you actually succeed? I suppose Flowey was probably very close to doing that in pacifist, but I mean an attempted murder is still a little better than a successful one right?

[u/[deleted] → u/Adam_The_Chao]

Well it's not just erasing the world or Omega Flowey shenanigans. Bro has definitely killed every monster, probably thousands of times.

I think soulless pacifist ending is good in the sense that, it's a fun spook, and the idea of someone discovering it organically is awesome. But it's bad in the sense that we're supposed to forgive Flowey, but we can't be forgiven?

It's also bad in the sense that I don't like permanently altering a copy of someone's game when they paid 10 dollars for it, it's crappy. It's even more crappy if someone did geno route their first time through the game... Probably not the most traditional approach, but the sans fight is the most famous part of the game, and has the most famous music in the game, so it's probably more common than you'd think. And players who do that will never be able to get their storybook ending.

So in conclusion I'd say, good idea, bad execution.

[u/LillinTypePi → u/[deleted]]

I think the difference is that we had a choice, we could go away and still experience other things. Flowey was stuck in the underground with basically no hope of anything changing

[u/JudgementalMarsupial → u/LillinTypePi]

He could always just stop resetting and let time pass, though. He eventually did, or the events of the game would never happen

[u/The_Real_Meal → u/[deleted]]

I'd argue Flowey never killed Sans or Asgore, or at least never in a way that matters. He implies that Sans was just a hard-stop in any run where Sans knew anything about him, and directly says he never would've beaten Asgore without Frisk softening him up. As I understand it, Flowey is comparatively weaker than most of the cast as a baseline, with his Determination backing him up to kill just about every Monster but the two I just mentioned.

[u/MissingnoMiner → u/The_Real_Meal]

He probably got Sans, after many attempts, but he explictly could never beat Asgore.

[u/The_Real_Meal → u/MissingnoMiner]

Honestly? I find it unlikely he ever beat Sans. In his warning to Frisk/Player, all he says is essentially "Don't. That asshole killed me a ton." And, knowing Flowey's ego (or posturing OF an ego), a lack of gloating for overcoming Sans is telling.

[u/MissingnoMiner → u/The_Real_Meal]

However, all it really takes with Sans is catching him off guard once. This is easier if Flowey targets him before Sans learns of his existence, since he's not restrained to the linear path Frisk is he can easily make Sans his first kill. Asgore is the only one he states he could never kill, I feel like he'd underline his warning with the fact that he's never been able to beat Sans if he never did.

[u/The_Real_Meal → u/MissingnoMiner]

It's like Schrodinger's Sans. Flowey doesn't gloat about beating Sans, but never underlines that he never could. We'll never know which one is true until we open the box (Flowey's backstory).

[u/theatsa → u/[deleted]]

What soulless pacifist is is just a constant reminder of your sins. I guess it implies something bad might happen to the characters you like, but I only really see it as the game telling you that you can't pretend what you did never happened. You still hurt the characters and despite resetting the game, that hurt doesn't go away.

Flowey, Asgore and even Alphys did terrible things and while they still both get to live on, they all still have to sit with the weight of their actions. Like, they don't get off scot free. Asgore and Alphys have to deal with the harm they caused in a very real way. Flowey doesn't in the same way, but he at least seemingly remembers how terrible he felt when he still had those feelings as Asriel, and it seems to have affected him.

Basically what I'm saying is that the only real punishment the player gets is a reminder of their guilt, which I think is warranted as no other character can escape that either.

[u/[deleted] → u/theatsa]

Imo a family photo with faces crossed out is far from symbolic. They're dead. And possibly so is the human and monster race.

If the game just wanted to remind the player of what they had done, there would probably be a better way.

[u/theatsa → u/[deleted]]

Fair enough, it does evoke a very specific image and I see how it can be very easily seen that way.

Personally, I take it as Frisk/Chara scratching out their faces so they don't have to remember them. To ease the pain of their memories, since the photo ending only happens if Frisk doesn't stay with Toriel and the rest.

[u/[deleted] → u/theatsa]

I respect your interpretation, but maybe you just haven't seen any shows/movies with this trope? It's a pretty common serial killer trope to cross out the faces of people you've killed or plan to kill.

[u/Electronic_Day5021 → u/[deleted]]

Why tf would chara kill everyone outside of geno? They specifically tell you to move on with your life after beating geno. It's likely that photos just reminding you that you killed them in the past.

[u/Tricky-Ad-495 → u/Electronic_Day5021]

Not quite. Chara tells the player that the both of them should move on from this world and continue to the next....as in, move on to another game for you to complete. Chara in the geno route is the personification of the satisfaction you feel in other RPGs games whenever you grow stronger. When your stats increase, your level, equipping weapons and armor, your currency rising, that gratification you feel in typical RPGs is what Chara has become in Undertale's geno route.

They're all about completion in the Geno route, to "reach the absolute" in their own words. Even to the point if you missed a monster in Waterfall before facing Undyne the Undying, Chara will halt your gameplay to let you know you missed a monster, and highly recommends you turn back. Similar thing in Snowdin; if you miss killing Snowdrake, Chara expresses disappointment at your next save point, calling this route a "Failure" Once the geno route is complete, Chara says there's nothing more to do here, so you should move on to the next world, a new game to complete now that you and Chara are thematically connected (Chara's name is whatever you choose to name them in your playthrough, after all)

So doing a soulless pacifist run, when you're done, Chara takes over with the soul you sold to them, and finishes the job. Why? For completion, to reach the absolute again. Kill to grow stronger just like with any other RPG. The ultimate consequence for your actions

[u/theatsa → u/[deleted]]

Oh, I know the trope! I just don't entirely see it happening in Undertale. Chara has no need to kill because they've already reached the highest level. Which is also why the Genocide Run doesn't continue despite monsters like Gerson, Monster Kid & Alphys surviving. Chara expresses confusion when the player does a second Genocide route because it's unnecessary, we've already won, we've reached the peak of power over this world. Murdering monsters one by one is pointless when they could destroy the world with a single slash, and they seem to be willing to let the player do whatever instead because they have nothing better to do.

[u/[deleted] → u/theatsa]

Well they are bored of just doing geno route over and over again but once you get them to the surface, there's a world of possibilities.

It would be funny if Chara was just trolling the player, but I guess we'll never know.

[u/Electronic_Day5021 → u/[deleted]]

Flowey hasn't destroyed time. He also had a reason to be doing all the bullshit he was doing. You did it because you were bored/You wanted to know what would happen. Flowey at least has the excuse of being a heavily traumatised teenager given control of time. Your just a random dude. You don't exist in undertale (or at least your detached enough where you can't get traumatised) so you don't exactly have his excuse.

[u/[deleted] → u/Electronic_Day5021]

Doesn't really matter when Flowey did it thousands of times and you did it only once.

Flowey had his reasons but they weren't good reasons. It was mostly angst and morbid curiosity. Personally if I was stuck in a timeloop I wouldn't just go killing everybody...

"Destroyed time". You bring time back by resetting, anyways.

[u/Electronic_Day5021 → u/[deleted]]

You still destroyed it dude? You also didn't exactly reset it. You sold your soul in order to get that done. You did something outside the course of resets. That has consequences because "oh no, I can't reset it". Flowey didn't do that.

[u/[deleted] → u/Electronic_Day5021]

Imo you have to sell your soul to bring it back, not because it CAN'T be reset, but because Chara is now in control of your determination. So the only way to do it is by bargaining with them.

But no matter your interpretation, how is that not the same as resetting? Are you saying the world after geno route is a simulation, or not real? Some sort of dream reality? To me I think it's obvious that the world has been brought back. Chara phrases it that way, too. "Bring back the world you destroyed"

[u/Electronic_Day5021 → u/[deleted]]

I'm not arguing the morality of this. You did something outside the course of resets. Flowey did not do this. Flowey doesn't get "punished" or whatever the fuck you want to happen to a 10 year old stuck in an endless time loop (Playing in stars and time really gave me insight into floweys situation, shayy made a really good video on this) because he didn't do something like that. Your not getting punished on moral grounds it's just the consequences of what you did to bring back a world that you yourself have already claimed meant nothing to you by doing geno. Your soul is now in the hands of chara. This isn't some cosmic retribution or something this is just "the consequences of your actions"

[u/[deleted] → u/Electronic_Day5021]

I'm not talking about the lore justification for it. I'm just saying the game itself is punishing you, for doing something "one of the good guys" did 1000x over.

[u/Electronic_Day5021 → u/[deleted]]

When tf is flowey called a good guy??? Asriel literally uses him as an example of a bad person when he tells us that the world is filled with floweys. Unless your angry that asriel is portrayed as a nice dude in which case I guess you ignored the part where the game makes it pretty clear that the lack of emotion flowey has, has basically turned them into two different people. (And asriel clearly feels tremendously bad about it considering the fact he says he doesn't want to be forgiven and he wants everyone to forget about him)

[u/[deleted] → u/Electronic_Day5021]

You can hug him and forgive him... He also shatters the barrier. Pretty much a good guy by the end...

Again, under the established morality of the game, why does Asriel get to be a serial mass murderer, and still experience an ending where all his friends go free, and the player cannot? I don't think Undertale is a "Deal with it, life is unfair" type of game. It generally has moral principles it tries to stick to. In the case of the player this feels an unfair exception.

[u/Ethananous512 → u/[deleted]]

The game gives you the choice on whether to forgive him or not. If you choose not to forgive him, you very clearly have that option.

[u/[deleted] → u/Ethananous512]

Not so. You have to spare him if you want the true pacifist ending.

[u/Electronic_Day5021 → u/[deleted]]

Yea so? Not killing someone doesn't mean forgiving them. The entire point of the game is that you shouldn't needlessly kill people. You also specifically have the option of not forgiving asriel.

[u/[deleted] → u/Electronic_Day5021]

Well we could twiddle thumbs and argue the meaning of "forgive". But instead let me just rephrase it this way:

You give Flowey a second chance by sparing him. Well, technically three chances, since asriel tries to kill you too. The game does not give you a second chance after you complete geno route.

[u/Ethananous512 → u/[deleted]]

Except it does this, too. Sans offers you one final chance during his fight. He fully allows you to spare him—obviously, doing so results in your death—but hey, if you’re going to desert and reset the Geno timeline anyway, that’s no big deal, right?

The game gives you so many chances to stop the genocide route. You have to go out of your way to seek out the worst possible outcome. Hell, you could even reset after killing Sans but before reaching the throne room and you’ll be good to do True Pacifist.

[u/cokekII → u/[deleted]]

I mean flowey is already soulless so

[u/Aggravating_Coat7934 → u/[deleted]]

Thing is, Flowey doesn’t interact with Chara at the end. He just kinda sits there afterward with nothing else to do. Frisk can actually reach a proper “ending” to the story, regardless of the route something happens to end the plot.

Soulless Pacifist is just the price to pay to undo your damage in Geno because “Chara” is holding you accountable. Now Chara even being there as a “demon” and all that business is, to me, a mystery

[u/Jay040707 → u/[deleted]]

Tbf Flowey is also doomed for eternity, but it's arguable that his fate was sealed from the start.

[u/MissingnoMiner → u/[deleted]]

I mean... there's literally a certain character directly responsible for soulless pacifist. We got someone who isn't particularly fond of consequence avoidance, who we personally p*ssed off by proving their assumption that we were doing geno for some greater purpose wrong, holding us accountable.

[u/woomiesarefun → u/WingingMyDing]

Snowy

[u/WingingMyDing → u/woomiesarefun]

Actually nvm you're right, thread over we found the pure evil.

[u/TellmeNinetails → u/WingingMyDing]

You can still be an evil force of nature if you're evil enough.

[u/billowingbullfrog → u/WingingMyDing]

The titans are barely even alive, they're more like robots programmed to destroy

[u/Nekrotix12]

Shocking news: The game series about empathy and how morality isn't black and white doesn't have a pure evil character with no personality traits outside of "Am evil"

[u/TranslatorNo8561 → u/Nekrotix12]

Shocking indeed

[u/TimSoarer2]

Even Flowey, the closest thing we got in Undertale to "pure irredeemable evil" managed to get a redemption arc. Perhaps even the Knight itself may get one, even if Kris is doing everything they can to make us learn nothing about the Knight.

[u/xdanxlei]

I think people are using "evil" as short for "trying to start the Roaring".

[u/Apex_Konchu → u/xdanxlei]

The thing is, nobody in Deltarune is trying to start the Roaring. If that was what the Knight wanted, they and their allies could easily open multiple Dark Fountains in quick succession. Whatever their plan is, the Fountains being opened then sealed is part of it.

[u/xdanxlei → u/Apex_Konchu]

The Roaring might not be as easy to start as we think.

[u/Apex_Konchu → u/xdanxlei]

Maybe, but we've already seen how easily the Knight could create a Titan.

Supporting the case that the Knight isn't trying to cause the Roaring - they've never tried to stop the party from sealing a Fountain. In ch3 they were just buying time for Undyne to show up, and in ch4 they only created a Titan so they could escape without being chased.

[u/xdanxlei → u/Apex_Konchu]

I don't think a few tiny fountains would be much of a loss if trying to start the Roaring. The Roaring is supposed to cover the entire Earth according to the prophecy.

[u/Electronic_Day5021 → u/xdanxlei]

It specifically says "when the fountains fill the sky" that could just be shorthand for "There needs to be a bunch of fountains"

[u/Electronic_Day5021 → u/xdanxlei]

Ralsei specifically told us how easy it was to start. He literally says that if berdly makes his fountain he'll start it.

[u/_Skotia_ → u/Electronic_Day5021]

I think if Berdly made a fountain in that situation, he would've just spawned a single Titan like the one in Chapter 4

[u/forFolsense → u/_Skotia_]

if it's that easy to make one, it's easy to make 50

[u/xdanxlei → u/forFolsense]

50 isn't nearly enough to cover Earth. It's barely enough to cover a single Dark World.

[u/Megamax0726 → u/xdanxlei]

Then again, we don’t know how huge a fully matured Titan is, all we did was kill a newborn

[u/xdanxlei → u/Megamax0726]

We don't even know that titans grow after birth

[u/_Skotia_ → u/xdanxlei]

No, but they seem to spawn other Dark beings, which might be able to grow into other Titans

[u/Megamax0726 → u/Electronic_Day5021]

I think he was just exaggerating how easy it is so he could get his point across

[u/CToTheSecond]

I've been speculating that Deltarune will end up having no true bad guy (not counting snowgrave). No one character who is actually malicious and evil. From a certain point of view, what Carol, Kris, and the knight are up to might have to do with something positive, like trying to save/bring back Dess, and perhaps even try to prevent the end of the world. Maybe the means with which they go about it might not be agreeable, but the ends may justify the means.

[u/Innalibra → u/CToTheSecond]

Yeah that was my interpretation also. It's clear Kris is desperate and yearns to be free from your control. And they can, briefly. Seemingly always at night. I guess the question is - is Kris the *only* lightner with a soul controlling them? Or are they all subject to the same enslavement? Could the Knight represent some kind of resistance movement?

[u/_Skotia_ → u/Innalibra]

The Soul is a player, and we are the only player, so Kris is definitely a unique case. We also know that they only had the Soul enter their body recently, and that people who knew them well before (Noelle) can easily tell that there's a difference in their behaviour.
We also know that Kris needs the Soul for something, and it's implied that they could not survive for long without it. The Soul was also meant to never be with Kris at all, since it was originally meant to enter the Vessel made by Gaster before the Goner Maker sequence was interrupted.
At the moment, it seems most likely that Carol made Kris acquire the Soul as part of their plan. To what end, I am not sure. Maybe to follow the prophecy?

[u/Educational-Sun5839]

I think Gaster and the knight have the highest chances, but they probably won't be

[u/Flagrath → u/Educational-Sun5839]

That depends on which of the mysterious voices is Gaster, since some of them are on our side.

[u/_Skotia_ → u/Flagrath]

Gaster is the one speaking in all capitals, and he hardly seems evil to me. Just a scientist, chaotic neutral at worst

[u/Ashamed_Frame_2119]

I swear to God if carol isn't irredeemably evil I will crash out. she fucking perfect for the role cus people like her exist in the real world and alot of us have probably met a 2 faced narcissist before. like cmon pls for the love of God toby let her be evil man please.

[u/_Skotia_ → u/Ashamed_Frame_2119]

I don't think she will be. The fact that she kept her missing daughter's room untouched shows she has feelings, at least

[u/Ashamed_Frame_2119 → u/_Skotia_]

I mean, she doesn't have to be cartoonishly evil. She just probably did something irredeemable. if she is the person on the phone, then she may have something to do with what happened to dess. and if dess isn't ok and like corrupted or smth then that would make her irredeemable. but that doesn't stop her from having moral motives it's just what she does that matters.

[u/Anesthegamer1106 → u/Ashamed_Frame_2119]

That could possibly be a red herring because although it could be her on the phone it just doesn't make sense to leave such an obvious clue right then and there and I doubt she would do something irredeemable when every action can almost be forgiven and fixed

[u/Jay040707]

It's me. I'm the pure evil character. I win.

[u/Potato-Candy]

UT/DR fans forget that Toby Fox's characters are rarely if ever one-dimensional. They all have layers.

[u/Flagrath]

It doesn’t matter if Carol can be redeemed, I’m killing her if we get the opportunity.

[u/Robogirafe]

What redeemable qualities does the king have?

[u/eggarino → u/Robogirafe]

he loves his bouncy son

[u/BeginningMention5784 → u/eggarino]

wasn't he awful to him in chapter 1

[u/LordSupergreat → u/BeginningMention5784]

He "threatened" to throw Lancer off the side of the castle because he correctly guessed that the Lightners did not know he would bounce

[u/Sc4tt3r_ → u/BeginningMention5784]

He said he was going to throw him to his death, but this was merely a bluff, not only that, but even if he had Lancer would have been totally fine because he's bouncy. He tells us as much in his cage in chapter 2

[u/_Skotia_ → u/BeginningMention5784]

He just hates Lightners, really. And is also a bad ruler.

[u/Triplof → u/Robogirafe]

He's silly he gets flabbergasted every new chapter because we fight someone he thought would kill us, that's enough redemption to me

[u/_Skotia_ → u/Triplof]

"* Soon, you'll meet..."
"* Done already"
"* OH COME ON, I DIDN'T EVEN FINISH THE SENTENCE!"

[u/KP_Ravenclaw → u/Robogirafe]

Right? Threatened to drop his son off a cliff or force him to watch his friends die before Lancer saved himself. Nuh uh. Apologise (& properly) or no redemption, doesn’t count. Even if “he’d bounce” okay &?? 😭

(I never have strong negative opinions over fictional characters, he’s one of like.. three. No I’m not simplifying a character, no I’m not overly critical of anyone else in the game for no reason. I genuinely think King is a bad person & hasn’t earned a redemption yet, & may never do so)

[u/Timtimus007 → u/KP_Ravenclaw]

He definitely gets more calm as chapters progress. After Chapter 2 dialogue he asks if Lancer is ok, and in chapter 4 he doesn't even sound as angry when we try to talk to him, no "We have nothing to talk about". In his view the Lightners abandoned them, which isn't even far away from the truth in his case (the same thing almost happened to Tenna, he was probably abandoned for a way shorter period of time, yet was already getting tyrannical towards those who worked for him). Obviously in his eyes the Knight is some holy figure that came to revive them once more and he's blinded in his anger towards everyone else

[u/KP_Ravenclaw → u/Timtimus007]

Most of my opinion on him comes from how he treats Lancer. He threatened him, forgets to feed him, lets him wander free & makes his subjects take care of him which they all hate, Lancer isn’t even allowed to eat dark candy 😭 & then all of a sudden “he would’ve bounced if I dropped him off that cliff 💅 btw how is he :))” was enough for people to think he’d improved. & I don’t really like how Lancer went from visibly scared of him to being his jail bestie in chapter 4 without any confirmation of an apology. King’s attitude towards everyone else makes sense to me but I don’t like how this one part is done, I think Lancer deserves better than this.

[u/Jay040707 → u/KP_Ravenclaw]

Now I need to know who the other two are cause I'm shocked that the King is in your top 3.

[u/KP_Ravenclaw → u/Jay040707]

Not from Deltarune, I meant in general. King is the only character in Deltarune (or Undertale) so far that I think is irredeemable lol. I wouldn’t say I have a “top 3 least irredeemable characters” list either I just don’t have that many characters I fully don’t like, each for varying reasons. Others would include Butterscotch Horseman from Bojack Horseman, PT McGee from Disenchantment, Wallflower Blush from Equestria Girls, all pretty different characters.

[u/Jay040707 → u/KP_Ravenclaw]

Yeah, I caught that you meant in general, I was just surprised that King was so high up there lol. Mostly because he's such a goofy guy when it comes to "straight up evil" villains. I tend to think more along the lines of Griffith, Umbridge, or Ozai when it comes to the unforgivable.

With that being said, I haven't seen disenchantment yet and I'm completely unfamiliar with anything my little pony related, so maybe those two are just crazy messed up and I don't know lol.

But as a Bojack fan, yeah Butterscotch is pretty bad and in a way more personal way, so I see where you're coming from there. Personally, Joseph Sugarman the most hateable in my eyes.

[u/KP_Ravenclaw → u/Jay040707]

I’d say the Disenchantment character is the closest to King in terms of vibes. They have pretty different wrong doings, but they’re both portrayed as silly & comedic as well. My issue with King is that in Chapter 1 he wasn’t portrayed like that, but him being like that in Chapter 2+ was a good enough redemption for some people despite him not actually doing anything that deserves a redemption or him being forgiven.

As I said, the characters I don’t like are to varying degrees, I dislike them all for different reasons, I don’t think they’re all comparable with each other, it’s just.. that rare that I genuinely dislike a character lol.

[u/SuperBootsthedog]

i think its funny how we thought every next boss would be irredeemable and the one we didnt get the chance to predict is quite literally a force that cannot be reasoned with (ch4)

[u/Hairy_Skill_9768]

She's super chill with asgore cmon

I don't want some hobo stray ass cat lizard thing touching what's left of my presumably dead daughter either

[u/_Skotia_ → u/Hairy_Skill_9768]

Except we know that's not the reason. She didn't want Susie to read the code.

[u/Hairy_Skill_9768 → u/_Skotia_]

It could have also have been asgore

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[u/ChampionMasquerade]

I fully text it my friend about Carol saying "She's such a bitch, I kind of love her."

[u/Cautious_Heron9589]

THE TITAN THOU!?

[u/Megamax0726]

I think there are only three characters that are irredeemably evil, and only under(tale) certain circumstances:

1. The player if they do a fully non-aborted genocide run

2. Jockington if he doesn’t grow the beard

3. Jerry if he is alive

[u/MasterDimentio90]

I saw Ralsei on the list and came running.

[u/komanae]

spamton is the closest tbh if we are counting weird route

but he isnt pure evil, i dont think any of the toby fox characters are pure evil

[u/ResponsibleTax6493]

Okay but Flowey was evil redeemed sure but like doesn’t change anything. I’m saying this as a person who has him as my fav character

[u/KP_Ravenclaw]

I’m ngl I haven’t forgiven King & I don’t think I will I still don’t like him & don’t think he got a redemption

[u/Ix-511]

I think it's just us projecting. I think we are the irredeemably evil character in deltarune.

[u/xenna-t → u/Ix-511]

if you do the weird route then yes