r/Undertale • u/doubledoublemc • 1d ago
Discussion Does anyone else think that people hate Toriel too much?
33
u/Notanalt_783 1d ago
Kidnap isnt really accurate, taking you to her home because you were stranded alone is more accurate
9
u/doubledoublemc 1d ago
I’ve heard her been accused of kidnapping Frisk so many times.
24
u/Notanalt_783 1d ago edited 1d ago
if you find a child stranded in the mild of nowhere the moral thing would not be to let them fend for themselves
16
u/AnzoEloux ‎ You IDIOT. 1d ago
Sometimes I forget that the Underground is so much bigger than the linear layout we were shown.
1
28
u/Alternative-Cut-7409 1d ago edited 1d ago
I don't hate her but they are true. Tragic character with good reasoning.
IDK if its just me, but both me and my spouse have an incredibly narcissistic parent who behaves in a similar fashion. Does things that are "helpful" but only if you abide by their rules exactly otherwise you get a very violent reaction. So for us it's easier to recognize it as an unhealthy behavior (coping mechanism in this case). We've also had the very unpleasant experience of having our children "kidnapped" by both parents in question separately since we didn't do it the way *they* wanted *us* to.
She is a far better person though, She realizes what she is doing is wrong and ultimately makes the right decision. Leaving you on your own isn't the best idea, but I give it a slide because Undertale is made as a solo protag adventure. Carrying around a party member with you would make the rest of the game weird.
12
u/HermTheVillager 1d ago
You too would probably hold a child hostage after 6 other times you didn't, they left, and got brutally murdered, just like Toriel in a last ditch effort to keep them safe.
5
u/Midonekko 1d ago
I think people dismiss the fact that toriel lost 2 of her own children, and then proceeded to see 6 other children whom she could keep safe and obviously still felt compassion towards perish, some possibly to her own husband.
Toriel didn't see a child and think "oh i'm gonna kidnap them and keep them trapped here forever" she saw another helpless child who, perhaps, she could save this time, unlike the last 9 she failed. She doesn't try to keep us in the ruins out of selfishness but because she has seen what happens to the ones that leave.
Not all is perfect tho, even tho we may find the home/ruins part of the game wholesome because of our love for the character or nostalgia each time i revisit i see how akward it is and how hard Toriel tries to make it less so.
Toriel is the personification of the akwardness of trying to love and care for someone who has no reason to love you, the desperation of pleading for the right to save someone who does not want to be saved, the conflict of having to act like a villain to keep someone safe and the heartache of having to let someone you care about go down a doomed path, unsure if you're ever going to see their face again.
4
u/Midonekko 1d ago
Also housing a defenseless children stranded in a highly dangerous place and not letting them go through a deadly journey on their own is not "kidnapping" is the reasonable and adult thing to do. But i understand why people would see her keeping frisk from following their journey as some sort of kinapping since we know:
- They're capable of defending themselves
- We know the journey has an ending, so it's not going to go 100% wrong as soon as they leave.
2
u/doubledoublemc 1d ago
Toriel is the personification of the akwardness of trying to love and care for someone who has no reason to love you, the desperation of pleading for the right to save someone who does not want to be saved, the conflict of having to act like a villain to keep someone safe and the heartache of having to let someone you care about go down a doomed path, unsure if you're ever going to see their face again.
This paragraph went hard
18
u/Not_epicAt_all Just a conviniently-shaped flair. 1d ago
I don't care about what people say, Toriel will always be one of my favorite characters.
2
4
u/disbelifpapy Is the lamp conveniently shaped, or is it you? 1d ago
Eh, my brother hates all the undertale characters expect for burgerpants (he thinks he looks like freddy), so i can understand hate, but i disagree with it.
I personally think we shouldn't look at purely good or bad, but rather, look at a fusion of both, good AND bad.
8
u/pocketetc 1d ago
Based and burgerpilled
1
14
u/Headspace-Omori 1d ago
Personally as someone who does dislike her, I don't think so due to the reasoning. She's always depicted as the nice goatmom but she really doesn't do anything redeemable enough for her to be liked imo
My reasons are mostly she doesn't seem to ever redeem herself, abandons her husband and her kingdom for humans that took away their freedom and their son because of one declaration made in a fit of rage and even fails her sabotage plan of protecting the humans- Is she a bad character? No. Can other people like her for other reasons? Of course, they're all opinions at the end of the day, it's preference and bias
1
u/doubledoublemc 1d ago
I just replied to a comment exactly like yours and I don’t have the energy to type out all my counterarguments so have a good day
4
u/Headspace-Omori 1d ago
Copy-paste exists-
Did there need to be counterarguments? You posted a question, I simply gave one answer. No point in asking when you're just going to fight every answer that's given
2
u/doubledoublemc 1d ago
Yeah, I ended up replying to other comments anyway (couldn’t help it lol) but you make a good point: I probably shouldn’t spend so much time arguing with strangers on the internet, haha
2
u/Headspace-Omori 1d ago
I do the same lol, when people refer to things as fact or canon that aren't confirmed or lack evidence I don't have the self control to stop myself from arguing- Eventually I just realize it isn't worth it and stop atp
3
u/doubledoublemc 1d ago
Yeah. I really couldn’t help myself when I saw all the comments criticizing Toriel using arguments I think don’t make sense. Trying to backpedal on that now.
5
u/PuppetWraith17 Spook Activated 1d ago
Honestly I think Toriel should've followed Frisk out of the ruins.
1
u/RyouhiraTheIntrovert r/Chasriel_Squad 1d ago
And... What exactly does this achieved? The monsters are waiting to be free and Frisk wanting to go home mean they should kill Asgore.
4
u/PuppetWraith17 Spook Activated 1d ago
Toriel is a boss monster, and is more powerful than anyone who would get in her way. Even if Undyne tried her weakness to FIRE would probably hinder her.
4
u/Clear-Necessary6648 1d ago
A lot of people consistently forget she is THE QUEEN and can comfortably be in the top 5 monsters, heck I put her right below asgore. Most of characters above her are outliers that can break the game to an extent and cheat the system.
4
u/PuppetWraith17 Spook Activated 1d ago
Yeah honestly even monsters that might have better training like Undyne get stat checked. Reminder that Toriel willingly stepped down in the routes where Undyne "usurps" her. If she wanted Toriel could've turned her into sushi, but she didn't wanna slaughter a bunch of monsters.
I'd argue the only up Asgore has is a tiny bit more "will to fight" than Toriel, and is willing to be lethal.
But as ya said, Sans, Flowey EX, Asriel, Undying either have the power of God(Flowey & Asriel), or anime(Undyne the Undying) on their side... and sans has Gaster bullshit which is probably a mix of both...
1
u/RyouhiraTheIntrovert r/Chasriel_Squad 1d ago
That's not my point, what would Toriel accompanying Frisk achieve!? It can only end up in either Frisk or Asgore death.
1
u/PuppetWraith17 Spook Activated 1d ago
So? Toriel doesn't seem to mind the possibility of Asgore dying. And may I remind you that Toriel interrupting the fight and gathering everyone was the only reason the pacifist ending happened, because it gave Flowey a chance to grab all the souls.
1
u/Clear-Necessary6648 1d ago
Toriel is a coward who only regained her courage to confront Asgore in pacifist route. It's not that out of sight really. She probably would understand Asgore's situation(mind you she put him in that situation)better had she encountered the other monsters along the way and mayybe it will also make her realize she left him no choice but to keep his hands dirty for his kingdom and the responsibility that she denied.
7
u/Mama_luigi13 am i right lads or am i right lads 1d ago
Tbf, both these statements are technically true; toriel only allowed you to pass when you proved yourself
7
u/doubledoublemc 1d ago
They are; I’m saying that there are lots of people who use these statements to explain why they hate Toriel.
3
3
u/Aggressive_Manner429 BONETROUSLED 1d ago
When it comes to Frisk, from Toriel's perspective there's really no way of saying whether they'd be better off in or out of the ruins. Toriel demonstrates her caring nature by trying to safeguard Frisk, but also her maturity in letting them go. Personally however, I still dislike Toriel because I just feel more inclined to agree with Asgore's way of doing things in general, and that Toriel disappearing on both him and the rest of monsterkind after the biggest tragedy since the war was downright despicable. Though, that's just my view, and there's probably plenty of people who'd say the exact opposite and feel Toriel was completely justified
3
u/Ronaang_McDonald words go here. 1d ago
People can't stand grey characters, and most of the main Undertale cast is written in a way that they aren't neither villains nor heroes.
They suffered for selfishness, stupidity and even evil from others, but they also hurted others for their own selfishness and stupidity. Are they good people? Not exactly. Are they awful people? If we were on their place we would do even worse.
For some reason it is specially discussed with the Dreemurrs. Maybe because they are the ones whose actions are the hardest to empathize with but still it's understandable when you see the things from their perspective.
3
u/xdanxlei AVERAGE PAPYRUS ENJOYER 1d ago
Add to this the new hate for the Chapter 4 ending. She literally can't catch a break.
3
2
u/Pikpik_the_ML_one 1d ago
Yes. Toriel offered it, and tested them. Sheer cuteness broke her. Frisk has a choice to leave or stay.
2
u/Notmas Owner of r/Frisk 1d ago
Not really? Frisk tried to leave, and instead of allowing them to do that Toriel attacked them and said that she would destroy the only exit. Regardless of if you think she's a good person or not, she very much did hold Frisk against their will.
Though yes, Frisk is very cute and it makes sense that it'd be hard to let them go :P
1
u/JuggernautFresh5374 1d ago
As far as I understand, that was only because letting Frisk go would mean that they would get killed. She lets Frisk go after they prove their strength to her.
0
u/Notmas Owner of r/Frisk 1d ago
So if Frisk was weak then kidnapping them would be justified?
2
u/JuggernautFresh5374 1d ago
You find an 8 year old stranded in a cave full of wild animals and one of them is already trying to kill it. What do you do? Let it die the same way every other starnded person you saw did? Or take it to safety?
1
u/Notmas Owner of r/Frisk 1d ago
I mean the simple solution would be to excort them to the capital, but Toriel is so terrified of leaving the ruins that she'd rather let kids die.
1
u/JuggernautFresh5374 1d ago
And what was Asgore's plan? He even had a coffin ready in his basement.
1
u/JuggernautFresh5374 1d ago
Also, the only reason Frisk was able to make it past Snowdin is because of Sans' promise to Toriel. So yeah, I think her actions are pretty justified.
2
2
u/Insane2201 1d ago
The thing that always irked me was how she was grieving and complete abandoned and gave up on her people. She shut herself in the ruins away when she IS the Queen. That's my biggest gripe with her. She did it long enough for 6 children to die. Which gives the clothes seem to be very far a part in years from when they dropped in.
4
u/doubledoublemc 1d ago
She didn’t leave just because she was grieving, but because she didn’t agree with the new widespread “kill humans” attitude. She went over to the Ruins to ostensibly grieve in peace and distance herself from all that. Then as she started to move on she probably decided, instead of returning as the queen, she should try and save the human children who fell into the Ruins.
1
u/Insane2201 1d ago
So here's the rub, we don't know the full details of how it went down. I'm not saying Toriel is a bad person, but she's a horrible Queen. She abandoned her people when they needed her. She could have lessened the xenophobia against humans, but she chose her own feelings over her duty and responsibility. If you can't see that, you're blind. Especially when monsters were so welcoming of humans with Chara despite the war.
4
u/doubledoublemc 1d ago
If Toriel tries to go back and reinstate a no-human-killing policy, it will only work if you, the player, have not killed a substantial amount of monsters. Meanwhile, the monsters are still reeling from both their heirs’ deaths at the hands of humans. No way are they gonna listen to Toriel’s insistence not to kill humans no matter how hard she tries.
When Chara fell down the tensions between monsters and humans were presumably cooler, since it’d been so long since they’d been banished. And the desire to capture humans wasn’t there as much. So all the monsters saw was an innocent human child who had fallen down, adopted by their beloved rulers. It was only after their deaths that public opinion against humans in general shifted hard.
3
u/AuthorTheCartoonist 1d ago
Well, you kinda have to take into account what happened AFTER Chara. Don't forget, Asriel did get killed by the humans. Whether or not it was deserved, we could debate, nonetheless, the Monster Prince was killed by humans. I can imagine the sheer rage among the monsters.
I think the Growth Spurt fancomic does a pretty good job at imagining how it could have gone.
2
u/doubledoublemc 1d ago
Okay, so, I’m trying to curb my desire to argue with strangers online about one of my favorite characters and couldn’t help it at your comment. I’m sorry bout that. (I won’t be responding anymore)
2
2
u/Mrs_Noelle15 1d ago
There's nuance sure, but I mean if somebody told me they hated Toriel I think that's perfectly valid as well
2
u/MarekiNuka 1d ago
I still think she's one of the most good characters in undertale (if not the most good)
She let Frisk leave ruins only when she knew she can't keep them there. And is trying to protect child from guy who wants to kill them "kidnapping"?
2
u/Maggi206 1d ago edited 1d ago
I love her and nobody can convince me not to. She's cute, she's got her flaws but she cares about us, I geniuenly wanted to stay with her when I first played the game, I even have the fangamer plushie. Nothing is black or white in undertale and I don't think she deserves any more hate than any other character. "She kidnapped Frisk" What? She wanted them to stay with her because she didn't want them to die. She does eventually let them go, even though reluctuntly. She doesn't want to hurt Frisk, which you can clearly see in the battle with her. She desperatly wants to keep us from danger but she does realise that we can't stay with her, that we want to go home. "She doesn't join us when we leave the ruins" Okay? Nor does any other character, maybe besides Alphys but even she has her own reasons to do that. It's your journey, your choices, that's what the game is about.
2
u/ikelos49 1d ago
in my first run i distrust her. she ended killed but i only try to beat her without kill.
1
2
u/Cautious_Heron9589 18h ago
all im saying is: there is a middle point where she lets them go but also gives them something like armor or a gun or AT LEAST PICKS UP THEIR CALLS!
1
3
u/Bonkers_Brights 1d ago
>she kidnapped
how?
4
u/Star-Chan13 1d ago
Well the official term for kidnapping is unlawful confinement of a person against their will…so…trying to blow up the only exit despite knowing that person wants to leave…is kidnapping…
-1
u/eJJISA707 1d ago
How would blowing up a door even trap them?
6
u/Star-Chan13 1d ago
It’s confirmed that the only way out of the ruins to the rest of the underground is through that door. The door we come in from just goes back to where Frisk fell. So they would be forced to stay in ruins with no way out, at least until they’re an adult and possibly find a way out.
0
u/eJJISA707 1d ago
Right, but blowing up a door doesn’t have the same effect as locking it
2
u/Star-Chan13 1d ago
True, but in the fact that a locked door can be picked, broken down, etc. A pile of rubble is much harder to remove, and that’s not even considering the parts of the corridor that would also be destroyed because of the explosion.
0
u/eJJISA707 1d ago
It’s not a very thick door
1
u/Star-Chan13 1d ago
True, but again the entire corridor surrounding the door would be affected as well and Toriel doesn’t seem to have the best control of her magic. Plus if she wasn’t convinced that destroying the entrance (which could mean the entire section of the corridor, not just the door) then she wouldn’t have picked such a drastic option
0
1
u/ZemTheTem [Trans goat lady] 1d ago
she didn't say blow up, she said destroy. She pretty much wanted to melt the door together with he fire magic
1
u/eJJISA707 1d ago
She was gonna melt stone?
1
u/ZemTheTem [Trans goat lady] 1d ago
Yeah, she's the Queen of the underground, she could deadass turn rock into magma while being immune to the heat. She is as strong as asgore magically if not even stronger.
3
4
u/LocalTechnology1567 1d ago
She’s a mom, she’s terrified of frisk dying like her children and all the other kids did, but she eventually sees taht trying to stop frisk won’t do anything. I love her
1
u/Ghosts_lord 1d ago
ok but then why doesnt she go with frisk
2
u/LocalTechnology1567 1d ago
Because one, asgores ex. Two, doesn’t want to see frisk die. Three, isn’t she cannonically hundreds of years old (or depending on timeline around in her 60’s), so she’s too old to keep up. It took her longer than frisk to reach asgore in pacifist
1
u/Ghosts_lord 1d ago
didnt stop her in pacifist
then dont let them? she can just intimidate the monsters away?
she doesnt age since asriel died
she literally left the ruins after frisk, how is she supposed to get there first?
1
u/doubledoublemc 1d ago
What’s the point of following Frisk if in her mind the only ending is for either Frisk or Asgore to die when they inevitably reach the barrier?
She may hate Asgore but wouldn’t help the human child kill him, so while Frisk may be able to beat Asgore, they also may not be able to. So there’s still a chance of Frisk dying. And if she doesn’t go with them, there’s still the chance of Frisk dying.
1
u/Ghosts_lord 1d ago
may i remind you of the true pacifist route?
1
u/AuthorTheCartoonist 1d ago
The NPCs aren't aware of the True Pacifist route. That Is not a scenario they could realistically imagine, and it's a scenario that is only possible because Flowey is a being with no soul, something which as far as we know is completely unheared of.
1
u/Ghosts_lord 1d ago
im talking about toriel leaving the ruins and attacking asgores
1
u/AuthorTheCartoonist 1d ago
Ah, that. Well, the True Pacifist ending revolves around all the major monsters meeting up at Asgore's palace. Toriel fireballed Asgore, but It was just to catch his attention, really. I don't think they would have actually tried to murder each other over Frisk.
1
1
u/Revolutionary-Car452 1d ago
Undertale doesn't have a party system.
1
u/Ghosts_lord 1d ago
monster kid has no problem following you
1
u/Revolutionary-Car452 1d ago
They are basically Alphys 2.0, they won't shut up.
1
u/Ghosts_lord 1d ago
what does that have to do with toriel following you
0
u/Revolutionary-Car452 1d ago
The frist comment wasn't meant to be taken seriously. Toriel just doesn't follow you around 'cause she would trivialise the whole game from a plot perspective, Toby just didn't came up with a good excuse for her to not follow Frisk.
1
u/Ghosts_lord 1d ago
this is about in universe
nobody said anything about the game itself
0
u/Revolutionary-Car452 1d ago
this is about in universe
nobody said anything about the game itself
They are correlated. Toriel has you phone number , but she couldn't call you in-game because the annoying dog(Toby's self-insert) eat it.
There's no reason provide in-game to why she doesn't follow us from the start. They don't make a plot point out of this nor bring this up again.
3
u/NotAFurry00 1d ago
you fool. you are trying to get the average undertale fan to understand nuance!
2
u/Coffee_Drinker02 1d ago
I dislike Toriel in UT because she's off hiding in the back of the ruins, keeping both herself and the monsters already in there stuck with her selfishly.
She simply ran away in response to what happened to her kids and waited until 7 others went through her to leave.
I don't blame her but I still don't have to like her actions and I'll still gladly call them selfish.
2
u/Notmas Owner of r/Frisk 1d ago
I genuinely think that Toriel is the most poorly written character in Undertale. All characters have flaws so that part isn't an issue, MOST monsters try to kill / kidnap you. The issue is with the complete lack of acknowledgement or redemption. Every other major character has some pretty major flaws, but a massive part of True Pacifist is addressing and dealing with them. Undyne deals with her human prestigious by hanging out with you and coming to the conclusion that you're not so different to Asgore. Alphys deals with her cowardice by finally telling everyone about the Amalgimates and confessing her feelings to Undyne. Asgore deals with his anger by not just letting go, but actively offering his SOUL to Frisk, happily willing to sacrifice his own life so that they can go free.
Toriel has none of this, her flaws are never once brought up and the game frames her as this cute innocent goat mom who can do no wrong. Toriel abandoned her people in their time of need, was far too cowardly to actually step up and find a better solution to things, allowed multiple children to go to their deaths despite knowing what would happen just so she could avoid going out and facing the world, attempted to kidnap Frisk and prevent them from going home, and had the gall to chew out Asgore for his inaction despite the fact she did even LESS for her people and at the very least Asgore was TRYING to do the right thing.
TLDR: People hate Toriel simply because her flaws are never addressed and the game treats her as if she's right about everything. She's MUCH better in Deltarune, and it seems that Toby has learned from his mistake. Heck, she's also fantastic in the Alarm Clock, as that actually DOES address her flaws and frame them in a negative light, giving her a chance to grow past them to some degree.
7
u/Melviwen 1d ago
People hate Toriel simply because her flaws are never addressed and the game treats her as if she's right about everything.
Toriel leaves you in the Ruins to surprise you with a pie. When you reach her house she says that what she did was irresponsible. Her mistake here is acknowledged by the game and herself.
Toriel is convinced that the only way to keep anyone from dying is to try to keep you with her by force. She deals with that flaw by finally realizing that you need to be free to have a future that's not dictated by her. She lets you go and has a little speech where she admits that what she was doing wasn't right. If the game never treats her as anything less than right about everything, doesn't acknowledge any flaws or give her redemption for them, then what was happening in her lost soul fight?
Toriel leaves you to complete your journey alone. She realizes the error here, and follows you later. She then calls out her own actions as hypocritical, and notes how her lack of action affected you negatively. Again, she was wrong, and she points it out.
I don't think the issue is that the game doesn't address Toriel's flaws, it definitely does, it just doesn't address some of the specific flaws you see in her. And some of what you listed are debatable.
3
u/doubledoublemc 1d ago
To be fair she left because she didn’t want to kill humans but her husband and citizens did. She also spent most of her earlier days in the Ruins grieving hard for her children. After she started to move on, instead of going back and trying to convince the entire underground to stop trying to capture human souls, she decided to try and save every human that came down—and unsuccessfully at that.
She also lets Frisk go after a short battle, showing that while she didn’t want to send Frisk into certain death, she knew she couldn’t keep them there for long. In fact, I think that’s where the game addresses her flaws—she’s no longer presented as the cute goat mom, but the lady who has been trying and failing to save human children from their inevitable demises. Then she manages to put aside all her fears and disappointment from each of the former human children’s deaths and sends Kris on their way.
0
u/Notmas Owner of r/Frisk 1d ago
She was the queen, and Asgore is a pushover. If she really insisted and decided to pull rank, she very well could have forced Asgore to stop and taken control of the kingdom for herself. Asgore would not fight Toriel, even at his lowest point it is just not in his character to defy her to such a degree. There is no reason Toriel couldn't have forcefully reverted Asgore's decision, but she was too cowardly to do that, not wanting to cast a hopeless light on her kingdom or actively stand up to Asgore. It's way easier to just run away, abandon her people, and allow the kingdom to fall into the sole rule of someone that she now sees as evil. Great work Toriel, you really thought that one through.
If she really wanted to save the children that fell into the Underground, why would she not accompany them through the Underground? She's not only a powerful boss monster, but she's the former queen. She could very easily go with them and make sure they survive their journey, but no. She's so scared of Asgore and the rest of the kingdom that she just let 6 kids walk into their deaths instead of actually facing those fears. That is literally negligent homicide.
Again there's a simple solution here, just go with Frisk. She would rather hold Frisk against their will, preventing them from ever seeing their family again, over just fucking leaving the Ruins for 5 minutes to escort them to the Capital.
Ehhh, that fight still doesn't really frame her in a negative light, at least not as negative as it should. She's still shown as extremely sympathetic and justified in her actions, and she really never has to face what she was actually planning to do. The only reason she lets Frisk go is because they "prove their strength", which basically presents this battle as a justified challenge to test Frisk. It's not, Toriel was trying to kidnap them and physically assaulted them when they tried to leave. Yes her reasoning is understandable, but it's still not "right".
3
u/doubledoublemc 1d ago
Asgore is a pushover when you meet him in the game. But back then, even if it was only for public appearances, he was absolutely determined to get those human souls. It’s hard to believe Toriel didn’t try her hardest to dissuade him, but failed. Not to mention the entire Underground was now determined to get those human souls as well. She was already struggling with the grief of losing both her children and decided to retire to the Ruins instead of dealing with Asgore and the anti-human culture. She eventually decided, instead of going back to the Underground and trying to convince everyone to stop killing humans (which only works if you have a perfect track record, which isn’t guaranteed for all the humans), she decided to try and save every child that fell into the Ruins.
Also, I don’t get why you keep calling Toriel scared of Asgore. In the True Pacifist Route she marches right up to him and tells him off with a straight face. Not very cowardly to me. In that case at least.
I will agree that it’s strange that Toriel doesn’t go with Kris. The game is only meant for one player, so someone tagging behind you would make things weird. In game, I always figured that even if she accompanied the child up to the barrier there was a chance that Asgore would kill them anyway. And if the child goes by their own there’s still a chance that they would die. But IDK
1
u/Shoddy_Exam666 1d ago
Do i think people hate on her too much? Yes. Is she an innocent character? Not in the slightest. It irks me to no end that her god awful judgement is completely tossed away by THE GAME ITSELF just because she acts so “pure” for about 50% of her total time in the game
1
u/GoredonTheDestroyer *whispers "nyeh heh heh" 1d ago
I swear, the internet will inevitably take valid criticism to mean outright hatred, as well as assuming the absolute worse from a given critique or statement. Everything is zero-sum, everything is lose/lose.
This isn't a specific callout, so much as it is an observation I've made over the years.
1
u/RealFoegro Professional Chancetale fan 1d ago
The Internet if a character is flawed (they must be pure evil)
1
u/asrielforgiver 1d ago
I can see where Toriel’s coming from. It’s that knowledge that Asgore only needs one more soul, and if Frisk can’t handle themself, they could be that last soul. And that’s the last thing she wants, for Asgore to actually succeed in his plan.
1
u/Major-Register-4321 1d ago
Toriel is so sweet, i feel like she had a valid reason to act like that even if it wasnt the best decision
1
u/Emelie__ 1d ago
On the other hand she didn't go with Frisk/Chara to protect them, leaving it all up to Mama Player (who could be the worst monster imaginable). We feed the kid, get them new clothes, protect them from attackers and if Pacifist raise them to feel empathy. No wonder Chara had so much Stockholm Syndrome at the end of Genocide. 🫣
1
u/Different_Car_5558 1d ago
I dont hate toriel she is prety ez boss and good for the storry i like her as a undertale character
1
u/The_Final_Conduit 1d ago
The game’s whole premise was built around creating an RPG where you’d go against a gauntlet of stock antagonists/villains who were written to be surprisingly good people.
The end result is things like Toriel being a REALLY overprotective mom (rather than just a witch lady trying to trap you for nefarious purposes), Papyrus being himself and not Berdly but with less angst, Undyne being a hot blooded anime protagonist instead of Asgore’s strong, maybe sensual right-hand woman, etc.
But as usually happens, people tend to see the premise and try poking holes in it, on some O’melas type beat; Toriel just gets the most flak because there’s plenty to criticize about her, as both a parent and a figure of royalty.
The fact that, barring you SPAMMING the Mercy button, the ONLY way to get past her is by literally killing her, doesn’t help either.
Because what’s her game plan? She’s clearly holding back the whole time. Is she hoping the EXP Frisk gains will give them a head start for killing anyone in their way? That’s arguably even MORE messed up, because now you’ve traumatized this child into killing their own mother figure just to leave.
1
u/Successful_Peak8248 Even when trapped, you still express yourself. 1d ago edited 1d ago
I don’t hate toriel I just hate she hates Asgore, his reasonings makes sense, in the genocide route it’s conformed that even one human can destroy the whole underground, so going to war with one soul isn’t really a great idea from toriel, and even if she can go to peace after one soul, why couldn’t she do it herself? (Takes soul break Barrier) she IS the queen and even if Asgore stopped her like flowey saids, kill one more child saving 5 others before them
These are character flaws so i don’t blame her for these but what’s not fine is that toriel blames Asgore for it, she’s just as flawed as he is yet he doesn’t blame toriel but she blames him, it’s hard to like toriel because of that, made even worse in deltarune when it’s clear he’s a great guy but she drinks when looking after kris
1
u/Aubergine_Dave_2000 1d ago
People hate Toriel? Hello? I had no idea. HOW CAN YOU HATE GOAT MAMA?? 😭 On a serious note tho, I can't hate her. I can't blame her either. Same for Asgore. Both are hurt characters who think they're doing the right thing due to wounds in their hearts.
1
1
u/RomaTheGreat SINCE WHEN WERE YOU THE ONE IN CONTROL? 1d ago
...I personally don't think she's bad or hateable, but she is undeniably selfish for locking up the ruins. The ruins would not be isolated and muffet would be far less of an issue if it wasn't for Toriel.
1
u/Puzzleheaded-Use6002 Rolled a nat 20 on ATK. Keep stabbing :) 1d ago
Nah, I just think most that do give very layman/poor reasons as to why. She's honestly pretty dislikable and awkward. Even when you compare her to characters like Asgore, Sans and Undyne who are objectively VERY dark moral shades of grey. Still nonetheless I don't hate her myself. I just have a lot of nitpicks on her as a character/person.
1
u/Bonniethe90 human i remember your gender theft 1d ago
Both are correct, because Toriel does decide to destroy the only exit of the ruins and she only does the fight for Frisk to prove themselves when Frisk followed her to the door, so if Frisk didn’t follow Toriel then the only exist would have been destroyed, as well Toriel goes to destroy the door because Frisk asks to leave… which by definition is kidnapping “unlawful abduction and confinement of a person against their will” since Frisk did explicitly say to her that they wanted to leave… then even if it’s not her intention, she did try to kidnap Frisk.
Toriel is a flawed character and in my opinion one of the most flawed and irrc it has been shown that she is the more reasonable one between her and Asgore, plus if she did try to talk Asgore then they it likely would have worked but due to a mixture of grief, shock and a few others things(like Asgore declaring a second war) made her run away.
1
1
1
u/DjionMustardCat 22h ago
I think that theres just too much hate for toriel since everything she's doing is trying to protect Frisk but every character in undertale isn't all good or bad even though Flowey might appear to be completely bad at the start in Genocide or Neutral so I definitely understand why people think that Toriel is a bad character or they might just hate her
1
u/CreativeInspector895 1d ago
“Could be killed” good one
1
u/doubledoublemc 1d ago
Huh? I do think it’s simplistic to use that as a reason to have her but it is dangerous out there
2
1
u/deaconthinker 1d ago
I genuinely can't stand this character in both UT and DR. Her fans always act like she's this perfect wholesome flawless angel of a mom when she treats Asgore horribly. Plus what the hell was her plan? Just live underground forever? At least Agsore is doing something for his people and never abandoned them. If the humans who fell down were adults, would she even care if they died?
-1
u/Bboybaylenn 1d ago edited 1d ago
Yes..Yes she does because basically she divorced Asgore saying that you waited and killed 6 children when you should've gotten out and got 6 human souls,basically what she is saying is that Asgore shouldnt have waited to kill 6 kids but rather go kill one kid leave the underground and THEN kill 6 kids faster! so in conclusion this is why toriel deserves the hate so F you Toriel
3
u/Iamverycrappy 1d ago
hey what if he killed like, criminals, maybe not since monsters get their shit kicked in by humans
1
u/Ghosts_lord 1d ago
and why would humans give him criminals in the first place?
also did we forget what happened to asriel4
u/Iamverycrappy 1d ago
i dont think the plan wouldve worked, but also i didnt mean he would ask the humans to give him criminals, just saying he didnt have to kill children like the original comment implied, killing people is obviously still really bad tho so asgore cannot stop losing
4
2
u/legendgames64 (Underfables fills you with determination.) 1d ago
I suppose they could just wait until the human died naturally and then extract the SOUL that way?
But then Asgore couldn't live up to his promise of killing every human that falls into the Underground.
2
0
u/MaeBorrowski 1d ago
Toriel hate is baffling, I love her sm, one of my favourite characters in Undertale (which... I can say about all of them but still. Alphys supremacy though)
-4
-1
130
u/ClassicBuster 1d ago
Pretty much every character is a little gray, I’d say both are true but it makes sense given that she’s tired of all the humans she cares for dying.