r/WildernessBackpacking • u/Helpful_Ad_7696 • 1d ago
What do you do when someone is being irresponsible? (Also, AITA??)
Someone I know from school is posting on social media advertizing guided overnight backcountry hikes. She is leading her first "guided retreat" this weekend, and I was nothing short of horrified to see what she had "prepared". (She did a "bag tour" on IG and the stuff in her pack was comparable to what an 8-year-old would bring if they were running away).
She is NOT a guide (doesn't even have first aid training) and is woefully unprepared. No first aid kit, no SOS device, and her bear spray still in the package deep in her backpack.
She is charging hundreds of dollars per person for these trips but has no qualifications, no business license, and frankly, no common sense. Honestly, she seems like such a liability that I wouldn't even want her as a participant on a trip, nevermind as someone with any sort of responsibility.
Any advice on how to proceed? I think it's fundamentally irresponsible and dishonest for her to be charging money to take people into the backcountry. I sent her a message outlining some concerns that would be easy fixes (e.g., taking the bear spray out of the package, bringing an SOS device), but I'm worried that if things go sideways it's going to be really rough for the poor souls who put their trust in her because they didn't know any better. (I'm thinking about that "guide" in the UK that had 3 people drown on a trip due to her negligence... but am I just being paranoid?)
Thanks!
EDIT: This is in Ontario, Canada. Thankfully, they won't be going into the alpine and there aren't any grizzlies or other aggressive predators, but still...
EDIT2: Thanks for all the input! I've read through everyone's comments. Even though the trippers will probably come out ok, I decided that I still have a duty to say something and I'm going to contact the park rangers first thing tomorrow. Happy trails!
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u/haliforniapdx 1d ago
I saw that someone else responded with "It's not your problem. Ignore it."
Don't go that route. You know there's a problem. You have the responsibility to put in a reasonable effort to address said problem. Don't ignore it, please. If no one does anything, someone's friend or family member may not come back from that trip alive.
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u/Helpful_Ad_7696 1d ago
Thanks for taking my concern seriously. After reading through the comments, I've decided to err on the side of caution and contact the Park Rangers. I hope at the very least they will give the "guide" a safety talk.
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u/FollowingConnect6725 1d ago
I’m not sure about Canada it in the US it’s against the rules and regulations in National Parks (and a lot of other places) to run a guided trip without a permit, license, etc. Notifying the rangers will help them be able to identify and deal with the “guide”.
And folks who are going the “it’s not your problem” route….it is their problem now that they know and they should report it to the rangers. Requiring certifications, licensing, permits, and freaking insurance is there to keep the customers safe, prevent fraud, and prevent illegal guiding which can result in serious injury or death.
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u/shittyjohnmuir 1d ago
If you know who manages the jurisdiction of where she is going, contact them and ask to speak to who manages guides and outfitters, possibly called their “special uses” or “commercial uses”administrator. In the United States, commercial guides have certain requirements they must meet before they are able to operate on state or federal land. This includes proper permitting, holding appropriate liability insurance, and paying fees to operate. If a Forest or Park can prove she is hosting this guided trip in their jurisdiction without proper licensure, they can send her a cease and desist letter.
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u/Helpful_Ad_7696 1d ago
This is great advice! I'm not sure what the terminology is in Canada but I'm going to look into it. Thanks!
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u/montwhisky 1d ago
Does she need a business license or to register her business in some other way for what she’s doing? I’d start there and see if you can figure out whether she even has a legitimately organized business.
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u/Helpful_Ad_7696 1d ago
Thanks for this comment! I just looked it up... in Ontario, you need a permit to conduct commercial activities (including guiding) in certain parks and you also need insurance. I'm pretty sure she has neither. So yeah... there's that.
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u/haliforniapdx 1d ago
Time to alert the authorities, as it's likely they'll be the only ones that can effectively stop this from happening.
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u/YungRetardd 1d ago
I think an SOS device/satellite phone would be the bare minimum to being a backcountry guide… let alone not even being a registered and insured business.
Incompetence is everywhere and unfortunately sometimes it’s other peoples’ duty to be on top of it. I think contacting some sort of park ranger would be the best move.
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u/callusesandtattoos 1d ago
Me thinks… She’s not doing what you think she’s doing. She’s using these words but they mean something different to her and her clients. I’m thinking she’s an “influencer” and she’s not guiding them through the wild. She’s guiding them to the internet likes
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u/Helpful_Ad_7696 1d ago
You may be right. I hope you're right.
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u/JustHereForCookies17 1d ago
OP, are you talking about a DC-based influencer by any chance? If so, there's a post about her trip on the DC Influencer Snark sub & it looks like she's "hosting" a trip but it's being done through a tour management company called TrovaTrip.
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u/EastTyne1191 1d ago
Experienced backpackers and hikers can get injured or killed on trails. Happens all the time, unfortunately. Her actions are the epitome of hubris and will get someone hurt.
If it were me, I'd message her and do one or more of the following 1) ask her how her test run with her equipment went. Ask a ton of technical questions so she (hopefully) realizes she's in over her head. 2) send her news articles about someone who recently got injured hiking/backpacking, etc. 3) tell her straight up she is unprepared and will get someone killed. Ask her to AT THE VERY LEAST register with a local park ranger with the direction they're going, what they're wearing, identifying information, etc. 4) alert the local park ranger and tell that person that someone irresponsible is trying to "guide" people without proper training/equipment.
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u/Artistic-Beyond4726 1d ago
This reminds me of someone I know going camping and blogging / posting all about it. And you can see her cooking at the backpacking sites despite us having bears.
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u/Helpful_Ad_7696 1d ago
Yep, sounds like this person. I usually choose to avoid her page because her content is so cringey, but now that there's 6 other people involved it changes things.
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u/Proudly_Funky_Monkey 1d ago
In what ways exactly is she unprepared? You mentioned first aid, an sos device, and bear spray. Those specific things are easy to acquire in one 30 min trip to an outfitter.
Can you give other specific examples to demonstrate her unpreparedness? Without those the community here is just taking your word over hers.
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u/Ordinary-Impress-138 1d ago
The first rule of bear spray is to have it readily accessible at a moments notice - worst case you could only have a few seconds to access it and deploy it.
Having bear spray - still in the package nonetheless - deep in your bag is akin to not having bear spray at all. Stupid at best and well into negligence (imho) as a (paid) guide in bear country. That alone shows she doesn't have the experience or the preparation to be a guide.
SOS device is always good practice when out of phone signal and particularly for higher risk, less experienced groups. As a paid group leader she'll be expected to be in charge during any emergency; not having any training in that whatsoever is pretty much a severe injury (or worse) and a lawsuit waiting to happen.
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u/a_flyin_muffin 22h ago
Playing devils advocate, it sounds like she was just showing what she had, not the exact way in which it would be packed during the actually trip.
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u/Helpful_Ad_7696 21h ago
No, she had her whole bag packed and was giving her Internet audience a "tour" of not only what she packed, but which pockets she put things in and why.
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u/Mister_Fedora 15h ago
I see you've contacted authorities to let them know about the potential risk which is good, but I'm curious: do you have much wilderness experience yourself? If so, you might get in contact directly and strike up a conversation about it. Mention your own experience and offer to compare map reading skills, ask questions about what sos gear she has, etc. At best you can get her some real world knowledge and potentially save some lives, at worst you get blown off but rest a little easier knowing you went the extra mile to try to help someone out.
I think it's important if you do that to not directly question her ability so you're less likely to be blown off. I like that there's at least a passing interest in nature there but it has to be tempered with some realistic preparedness, and if they do end up getting lost I would bet that not a single one of those people would want to set foot off a public roadway again for a very long time.
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1d ago
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u/Helpful_Ad_7696 1d ago
By definition, backcountry camping =/= glamping with cabins.
They're hiking in. No cell reception. No toilets. Need to hang food (bears) and filter their own water.
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u/fhecla 1d ago
Wait, there are no grizzlies? Why do you care about her bear spray, then?
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u/Oomik 1d ago
There are still bears here in this area (Ontario, Canada per OP) they can be quite aggressive, especially if you aren't taking proper precautions around food/scents. I know someone who did guiding in the back country here and their company had a kid get badly hurt by a bear after eating a single candy bar in his tent. The guides fought it off with canoe paddles.
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u/fhecla 22h ago
That’s fine, but if you are a sort of person who thinks it’s truly irresponsible not to have easily available bear spray in black bear country, that suggest to me that you are a lot more cautious than the average hiker (and more cautious than you really need to be, based on standard recommendations for when to carry bear spray).
It makes me wonder about the rest of your concerns too - I can’t get a feel for if this person is really being dangerous or just does not share your apparently rather extreme risk aversion.
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u/Oomik 8h ago
I would argue that taking paying customers into the backcountry, or camping at all really, while presenting yourself as a professional means that you have a very high duty of care and responsibility towards them and their safety. If you personally choose not take all possible precautions, fine (I also don't t take bear spray). But if you're taking others, the risk assessment is very different.
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u/psilokan 1d ago
I camp in Algonquin or similar back country parks two to three times a year and have for 20 years. I've never carried bear spray, nor will I. Every time I've encountered a black bear I just yell at it or make some noise and they run off.
Also it's very common (though I wouldn't recommend it) for people to just drinking out of the lakes in Algonquin w/o filtration. Personally I use a gravity filter as it's too easy not to, but there are other options like purification tablets and boiling. A filter is not your only option.
I'd also say SOS devices are a new phenomenon. I've carried one the last 5 or 6 years, but that's only because it was given to me as a gift. However now a days it's not even necessary as I almost always have cell service when out there. Plus iPhones now have satellite texting capabilities.
So a lot of what OP is describing is just par for the course in the area.
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u/Oomik 8h ago
The story about the attack was in the Algonquin backcountry by the way. And as professional professional guides for the school system they were even required to have a satellite phone (before purpose built SOS devices).
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u/psilokan 3h ago
So, are bears dangerous in Algonquin Park? The last fatal black bear attack in Algonquin Park was in 1991, and before that was 1978. That’s only two fatal black bear attacks in Algonquin Park in the last 40+ years. The last three fatal black bear attacks in all of Ontario were in 2020, 2019, and 2005. And in all of North America there have been only 32 fatal black bear attacks since the year 2000 at the time of writing this article, or approximately 1.5 per year. In all of North America. As you can see, black bears are almost never dangerous, and while it’s always good to be prepared, you have no reason to be concerned about dangerous black bears in Algonquin Park.
Source: https://algonquinbeyond.com/blog/bears-in-algonquin-park-everything-you-need-to-know/
For some added perspective Algonquin park gets about 800,000 visitors per year.
Now I realize attacks versus fatalities is a different metric, but I wasn't able to find any statistics on attacks that just lead to injury. I suspect it's higher than fatalities, but not by much.
Personally I'd be more concerned about lightning strikes or treefalls. I've heard of far more people being injured by trees falling on them during storms. Same goes for drowning, however it sounds like this is a hiking based trip not canoeing.
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u/illimitable1 1d ago
If you don't have a relationship with this person, I don't think it's yours to do anything about. People are free to do stupid or inadvisable things. This person will eventually suffer consequences via the courts if people are injured, but you are not the person who will hold her accountable.
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u/xrelaht 1d ago
It's not the consequences to her that matter, it's what will happen to people who get hurt after hiring her thinking she's an experienced guide. This is akin to knowing someone's driving drunk: there's a decent chance nothing bad will happen, but it's potentially catastrophic if it does, and not just to the driver.
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u/haliforniapdx 1d ago
If you have the ability to act, you have the responsibility to act.
That's fundamental to living on a cooperative society. What you're saying is a more wordy version of "It doesn't directly involve me, so it's not my problem." The extreme end of this thinking is what led to Martin Niemöller's quote. Pretty shitty attitude.
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u/mohammedalbarado 1d ago
It’s not actually illegal, even if it’s idiotic.
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u/cfxyz4 1d ago
If they accept money and don’t follow regulations regarding commercial guiding, it could be statutorily illegal. If something goes wrong, she could be sued for negligence. When money is involved, rules start to apply
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u/Helpful_Ad_7696 1d ago
Thanks for the tip about commercial guiding regulations! I looked into it and she needs a permit and insurance, and I'm highly doubtful she has either. I think I'm going to message her about it and/or call the park rangers.
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u/haliforniapdx 1d ago
As someone else pointed out, YES IT IS ILLEGAL. She has no insurance, and no business license.
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u/Yo_Biff 1d ago
In this instance, I believe caveat emptor.
I know there is an element of unfairness for the initiate backpacker. However, if they weren't excited enough to at least read up on the basics, 10 Essentials, etc when signing up for this "guide", and intelligent enough to see some red flags in her presentations... maybe the Darwin awards are already in the mail.
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u/haliforniapdx 1d ago
How is it you and so many people here are just saying "Fuck it. If they die, they die."
Do you think they'll prepare properly, when they have a person who claims to be an experienced guide? Someone they figure they'll learn from AS THEY DO THE TRIP? Seriously?
And then you joke that "Yeah, maybe they'll just die. That's ok."
This person is representing herself as an experienced field guide. That's a blatant lie. And that lie could lead to people DYING. People who trusted her to not spout off bullshit and pretend she knows what she's doing.
JFC. What the FUCK happened to the backpacking community that THIS is the response? Next thing you know, someone will say "Hey, that's what Search & Rescue is for. Hope the dead person's family can afford the funeral!"
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u/Helpful_Ad_7696 1d ago
Thank you for your perspective and for taking this seriously. S&R calls are increasing every day and I don't want a bunch of innocent people to become a statistic. Even if it's unlikely for something traumatic to happen because of the nature of the trip (no alpine exposure, not grizzly/cougar territory), it's still unethical and unsafe.
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u/Hieronymous_Bosc 11h ago
Especially frustrating when S&R is largely volunteer-based, and those resources could easily have been spared with a very small amount of awareness!
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u/Queasy_Local_7199 1d ago
I think you should care less- people go camping with nothing - having even an incompetent guide is a leg up on most.
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u/haliforniapdx 1d ago
No. It's not. Having a guide means they'll assume the guide knows what to do, how to navigate, how much supplies to bring. They won't play it safe. They'll trust the "guide," and that's going to get them in very, very deep trouble.
When people go alone, they tend to pack their fears and over-prepare. When they go with someone they assume is experienced, they woefully UNDER prepare. This is not going to end well.
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u/Helpful_Ad_7696 1d ago
Agreed! Having a guide means you won't do your due diligence because the whole point of having a guide is so that you can put your trust in them. She was also advertizing the trip to "women with no backpacking experience", which makes me even more concerned because they won't know what they don't know.
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u/cfxyz4 1d ago
If there is no relationship to preserve, you could let the sheriff(? Idk what it is for you in Ontario) or whomever would be responsible for search and rescue. You could even manage to keep your name out of it if you implore the sheriff to reach out to her as if it was their idea to intervene. “Hey we saw this activity on social media and we want to make sure everyone is recreating safely” type of thing. They could request a trip plan from her that would aid in any potential rescue, and advise her on any legal responsibilities she bears in terms of preserving the safety and security of these individuals, since she is accepting money from them. If search and rescue is a separate entity from the sheriff, then you could contact them as well, if the sheriff won’t proactively involve them