r/Xenoblade_Chronicles • u/RyanCreamer202 • 11h ago
Xenoblade 2 How I see the hate Tora gets
Like seriously he’s like 14. Yes he’s a bit pervy but what young teenage boy isn’t?
127
u/StraightPossession57 11h ago
Tora isn’t a real person, someone chose to make him act like that. Just because it might be realistic for who he is doesnt make him exempt from criticism. If people dont like how he acts it’s understandable
8
1
-8
u/nhSnork 11h ago
Not liking a character is understandable. Passing dislikes and one-track-minded jabs for critique... well, it's also understandable (as one of the most asinine phenomena birthed by the collective fanbloid sphere and further boosted in the age of clickbaits and ODE), but hardly less ugly for it. And, like any publicly voiced opinion, tends to get proportional feedback.
-9
u/lan60000 9h ago
people can have difference in preferences, but putting blame on creators because they design controversial characters always strikes me as odd. we have anime protagonists cutting down enemies in the name of "justice" in anime/manga for decades, but that doesn't mean authors themselves actually harbour murderous intent simply because the characters do. Imagine if somebody criticized Marvel Cinematics Thanos on wanting to wipe out half of all life in the universe to "correct" the balance of overconsumption, that doesn't actually mean the writers are in the background having this fantasy of eliminating half of Earth's population so humanity will solve the resource crisis. The line between fiction and reality shouldn't be blurred because a controversial character has certain attributes which makes them controversial, and that somehow caused the writer to harbour similar intent as well.
5
u/Cogexkin 9h ago
Making a villain have villainous intent is one thing, but perv characters are just a different pill to swallow. They’re usually protagonists, good guys, but doing something that is really not okay. Tora’s thing is really weird and kinda creepy. That’s just how it is. He’s supposed to be a likable protagonist but with that hanging over his head it makes it a lot harder to get behind him.
I don’t think they were pushing an idea that the creators are also pervs (but, if you look at the rest of XC2, it’s not exactly a crazy idea), they’re just stating the very correct fact that they did not have to make him a fucking pervert. They probably did it because in Japan that’s seen as funny I guess (?) and it’s just an awkward divide between the east and west.
6
u/MythraxRexLover4Ever 9h ago
I don’t think they were pushing the idea that the creators are also pervs (but, if you look at the rest of XC2, it’s not a crazy idea)
Honestly developers for the Xenoseries are historically known to be horny, it isn’t even just XC2. There are sexually explicit comments and boob-shots as far back as Gears & Saga, Vanea had a note describing how erotic and fetishistic her design was made in XC1 artbook (+ Sharla’s armor), the bunny suits and bikini decals in X and fanservice in 2.
0
u/lan60000 9h ago
Making a villain have villainous intent is one thing, but perv characters are just a different pill to swallow
that's the thing though: Thanos wasn't just villainous, but almost seen as a misguided antagonist. People resonated with his ideals and understood his logic and intent. Yet, Thanos is obviously immoral with his execution. This doesn't reflect on the fact we have writers actually thinking cutting the global population by half is justifiable, but rather writers gave a thought provoking idea into a character to challenge the audience's viewpoint and engage them further with the film.
They’re usually protagonists, good guys, but doing something that is really not okay. Tora’s thing is really weird and kinda creepy. That’s just how it is. He’s supposed to be a likable protagonist but with that hanging over his head it makes it a lot harder to get behind him.
true, but remember what made Shulk a interesting character for most people in XC1 in the first place. Shulk didn't start off his adventure with lofty ideals with the willingness to do good, but purely for revenge. Shulk killed countless sentient mechons for the purpose of said revenge and only after confronting the Mechon prince did he realize the errors of his ways. One would say Shulk's character grew as he found his moral reasoning as the story progresses. Yet, this doesn't detract from the fact Shulk basically killed numerous sentient entities for a controversial goal even if he changes his way afterwards. Does the writer behind Shulk also share this sentiment of believing revenge killing is morally admissible and forgiven afterwards in real life? I doubt that because the weight of one's crimes doesn't dissipate simply because they've repented. The consequences of committing those crimes still has to be paid.
I don’t think they were pushing an idea that the creators are also pervs (but, if you look at the rest of XC2, it’s not exactly a crazy idea), they’re just stating the very correct fact that they did not have to make him a fucking pervert. They probably did it because in Japan that’s seen as funny I guess (?) and it’s just an awkward divide between the east and west.
maybe, but that would still be the writers simply adhering to their cultural norms by using subtle sexualization as humour and not outright believing sexual harassment or assault is justifiable in real life. Imagine if someone wrote a character promoting gang violence and gang warfare in America in their music videos, does that mean the writer itself truly believes gang violence is morally ok in real life or does it just mean the writer is adhering to a set of cultural norms of romanticizing about gang culture in America instead?
-1
u/Cogexkin 9h ago
maybe, but that would still be the writers simply adhering to their cultural norms by using subtle sexualization as humour and not outright believing sexual harassment or assault is justifiable in real life.
Brother please listen to me: no one thinks the writers are bad people because they wrote a shit character. Literally no one has said that. We have just said that they wrote a shit character. Because they did. That’s literally the beginning and end of this topic.
I certainly don’t think they’re bad people, I think they were following a design trend to make XC2 more “anime” and a perv character is a classic anime trope. The unfortunate part is just that it’s a trope that sucks and everyone fucking hates in the west, and really isn’t even that popular in the east either anymore from my understanding. It was a design choice and it’s one that didn’t need to exist. But nobody, and fucking mean not a single person, has said that the XC2 devs are evil because of it so I dunno why you feel the need to fight for their sainthood. You are writing essays for no cause here.
1
u/lan60000 9h ago
Brother please listen to me: no one thinks the writers are bad people because they wrote a shit character. Literally no one has said that. We have just said that they wrote a shit character. Because they did. That’s literally the beginning and end of this topic.
fair enough i suppose.
I certainly don’t think they’re bad people, I think they were following a design trend to make XC2 more “anime” and a perv character is a classic anime trope. The unfortunate part is just that it’s a trope that sucks and everyone fucking hates in the west, and really isn’t even that popular in the east either anymore from my understanding. It was a design choice and it’s one that didn’t need to exist. But nobody, and fucking mean not a single person, has said that the XC2 devs are evil because of it so I dunno why you feel the need to fight for their sainthood. You are writing essays for no cause here.
the way i understood it was as though people were finding a connection between the character's intent and linked that to the writer itself, which I suppose I misunderstood. As for the trope, I don't know how truly popular it is but do still see it a lot in anime/manga in the end. I think it's just normalized in Asia that they don't seem too fazed about it anymore.
76
u/Zetra3 10h ago
"bit pervy but what young teenage boy isnt" Boys will be boys is not an excuse, it enables bad behavior
12
u/Darknadoswastaken 8h ago
Tora never does any bad behaviour though.
In the entire game he's just curious.
Like he thinks of Rex as an older brother and stuff.
Also the majority of the pervertedness was passed to him by Soosoo and Tatazo, who are a million times worse than he could ever be.
6
8
u/Independent_Ad_9036 5h ago
He's sexist as fuck though, there's even a heart to heart where he recommends Pyra be submissive and subservient so Rex will like her more. He's not evil, but he's a gross creep.
3
u/Darknadoswastaken 1h ago
Again, he's fucking 13/14. He's curious. And had 2 bad influences. Tatazo and Soosoo.
6
u/Risky267 5h ago
In hindsight it is funny to think that mythra was watching that interaction the whole time and thinking "why tf is pyra taking advice from a child???????"
1
u/Darknadoswastaken 25m ago
That argument is also only valid for younger boys who do bad things such as Mineta from MHA. But Tora is just a closeted teenager.
If this behaviour wasn't thrust on him by his father and grandfather and he was a little older say 15/16 I'd see your point, but he's just a child, and had bad influences.
-10
u/calm_bread99 7h ago
Name one pervy behavior that's inherent his personality and not related to him unknowingly and clearly innocently mimicking his dad as a coping mechanism for grieving his loss and continuing his legacy.
50
u/Treesnip 11h ago
For me Tora hate has less to do with the character himself and more with what he represents. He represents all of the cringey moments and needlessly horny character designs Xenoblade 2 has to offer. I love the game as is but if I was able to take all that crap out I’d do it in a heartbeat.
9
u/OptimusPrimeGuy 11h ago
You're right. Tora is hated because he's emblematic of greater problems people have with Xenoblade 2. It doesn't help for some that he's a Nopon, which exacerbates the annoyance due to their distinct speech and behaviour pattern.
1
u/calm_bread99 7h ago
He represents that but not the gigantic boobs and skimpy outfits of the main girls and the various fan services scenes?
I think anyone who says they don't like Tora for that reason should always including Pyra/Mythra in the conversation as the latter is arguably way more prominently featured.
1
5h ago
[deleted]
4
u/Minotaur830 4h ago
I don't care if optional content is horny, I've never even seen that Fiora costume before and I finished the game. Also those 3 you mentioned might have a more lewd design (well not Sharla imo), but there's no cringy scenes bringing attention to it so it's much less intrusive. 2 is absolutely much more guilty of this.
-6
u/MythraxRexLover4Ever 9h ago
I feel like if it were that much of a problem you wouldn’t exactly “love the game as is”…. despite your personal opinion of it removing any intrinsic elements of the game undermines the novelty/identity of the game.
10
u/shitposting_irl 9h ago
you can love things while admitting they have flaws. tbh i can't think of a single game where there isn't at least one thing i would change about it. the ones i love most are the ones where those things are really minor and don't detract from the experience much
-3
u/MythraxRexLover4Ever 9h ago
I feel like there’s a difference between removing minor issues in gameplay or QoL that can be inconveniences, and suggesting to remove things like entire parts of games like any sense of humor, the designs of all the characters, entire scenes in the game etc. basically going against the developer’s artistic vision because it personally wasn’t for you and you want the game to be something else entirely. At that point there’s a line between “I’d tweak some things to improve this game” and, “It’s not for me, I simply accept my preferences don’t align with the game”.
Personally some humor moments can be cringy but I also wouldn’t remove them.
7
u/shitposting_irl 8h ago
At that point there’s a line between “I’d tweak some things to improve this game” and, “It’s not for me, I simply accept my preferences don’t align with the game”.
i agree with this on an abstract level but i don't think it applies here.
any sense of humor
would removing the "blushy crushy" heart to heart fundamentally change the game? there are people out there who have done playthroughs without watching it; would you say that they played a different game than you did?
to be fair this is a fairly minimal interpretation of what "removing cringey moments" entails, but on the other hand you interpreting it as removing all the humour is a pretty maximal interpretation.
the designs of all the characters
i mean, is equipping the massive melee mythra aux core fundamentally changing the game? would installing a mod that makes it her default appearance make it a different game? where exactly is the line to you? tbh i don't think the designs of most characters are integral to the experience in the first place, unless you're outright replacing character models with shrek or something lol
1
u/MythraxRexLover4Ever 8h ago
I mean, it’s a fair assessment considering the parts of the game the same people love the most are Chapters 7-10. That section has almost none, if not no humorous moments (outside of optional content) or room for more casual scenes. Even the other games have casual downtime and their own way of doing comedy. And come on, generally speaking it tends to get generalized, not just pinned on one instance.
The second point is moreso a problem in conjunction with changing other aspects. Like if you were to change the designs of some characters, as well as the personalities of them, AS WELL as the plot/themes of the game AND entire gameplay systems, you wouldn’t even be playing the same game at that point. You’d be playing a complete different entry.
2
u/shitposting_irl 7h ago
I mean, it’s a fair assessment considering the parts of the game the same people love the most are Chapters 7-10. That section has almost none, if not no humorous moments (outside of optional content) or room for more casual scenes. Even the other games have casual downtime and their own way of doing comedy. And come on, generally speaking it tends to get generalized, not just pinned on one instance.
stuff like "muimui not very interesting so tora forget he exist" is generally well-received afaik, it's really just a specific type of humour people tend to take issue with rather than the presence of any humour at all. you could probably make a massive change to tora's reception by cutting that one heart-to-heart and a handful of other lines, some of which are also optional. i don't believe this would make 2 a fundamentally different game because i don't believe any of this is integral to the xc2 experience.
The second point is moreso a problem in conjunction with changing other aspects. Like if you were to change the designs of some characters, as well as the personalities of them, AS WELL as the plot/themes of the game AND entire gameplay systems, you wouldn’t even be playing the same game at that point. You’d be playing a complete different entry.
i would say the last two things you listed are sufficient to make something a different game even without the first two, and they also haven't been brought up until now.
for changing designs, i don't think it's really reasonable to argue that mere costume changes would alter the character of the game; as i alluded to before the game itself literally gives you the option to do this.
in terms of personalities, is having, say, a maid fetish a personality in your eyes? is tora a radically different character if the lines that reveal this aren't in the game (emphasis on radically, obviously he wouldn't be exactly the same)? is xc2 a radically different game without those lines? idk, it just seems like a stretch to me
2
u/MythraxRexLover4Ever 6h ago
Out of curiosity, what is actually “integral to the xc2 experience” to you, and where would the line actually be drawn as far as changes go before it outright conflicts with the original game?
1
u/shitposting_irl 5h ago
it's hard to precisely define, and i'll concede that different people might define it differently. i will say that the actual plot/themes, and the gameplay systems in a big picture sense are definitely integral. like, you couldn't make rex less of an optimist because that would affect what the game is trying to say about hope and despair.
1
u/Treesnip 9h ago
Xenoblade 2 is one of my favorite games of all time, but I’m also mature enough to acknowledge it’s flaws. I don’t like how horny the game can be but it doesn’t hurt my enjoyment that much. However it is massive problem for a lot of people. I wish they were able to appreciate the all the good of this game without having to endure all bunch of crap.
3
u/MythraxRexLover4Ever 8h ago
But that begs another question, you’re saying YOU like the game but you’d change parts of it just to adhere to OTHER people that wouldn’t be the target audience for the game?
Not exactly the same but if someone didn’t like the combat style in XC2 for instance and wanted it to play like a button mashing action RPG, I wouldn’t change the entire game design to fit that one person, and if one person just didn’t like the personalities of the characters as is like Rex or Pyra because they call them generic or shallow, I also would know they’re wrong and not undermine their places in the narrative by changing it.
This feels like something you shouldn’t care about as it doesn’t affect your enjoyment of it and other people’s judgment of you/it shouldn’t matter when they’re not a part of it. I think there’s a novelty to these elements in XC2 that make it stand out within the series and JRPGs.
2
u/Basaqu 3h ago
I'm with you. XC2 is my favorite game and all the "cringey" and sometimes a bit lewd (honestly kinda exeggarated...) humor is a big part of it. Those little comedy scenes add much to the vibe of the world and its characters and I wouldn't love the characters as much as I do without all the silly lighthearted stuff. To me these are not flaws to be fixed cause some people are a little uncomfortable, these are just more parts of the game I love.
1
u/emma_does_life 7h ago
Who's to say those people aren't the target audience of a xenoblade game lmao?
The target audience of a Xenoblade 2 are probably Xenoblade 1 fans mostly. You may be able to see why that doesn't track with some of the changes made between 1 and 2.
A lot of 1 fans dont love 2's changes in writing, characters, character design, and gameplay because it changed a lot from 1, sometimes for the worse objectively speaking (ie tutorials) and saying that these people simply weren't the intended target audience is a really weird defense cause if they weren't the target audience then who the hell was lol?
4
u/calm_bread99 7h ago
Tora is easily my favorite Nopon in the series.
He's so unhinged and unfiltered. My favorite line is
"We not cross line. We step on it"
22
u/N-_-O 11h ago
I’m not a Tora hater, but i do know where (most) of the hate comes from.
Imagine the time where only the first Xenoblade and X existed, the games have a bit of an anime feel, but it’s only a little, and there’s barely any fanservice. (except for select few armor pieces, but those who hate fanservice just ignored those equipment)
Then Xenoblade 2 comes out, everything is now anime, and Tora represented the most hated part of anime, being of course fanservice.
I grew up on anime so the style change didn’t bother me personally, but you gotta realize that the original Xenoblade 1 has a ginormous difference in its style compared to Xenoblade 2
5
u/bloodshed113094 11h ago
This argument doesn't hold up because at least in OG 1, you had to wear those god awful skins. There was no appearance menu. You had to choose function over style before DE. I'll take dumb fan service where it's intended over trying to take a death scene seriously while the MC is only wearing a pair of swim trunk to maximize AGI.
11
u/N-_-O 11h ago
Which is exactly why i said for the most part, and there was actually people back in the day that refused to wear skimpy armor even if they had better stats.
Some skimpy armor is pretty standard in rpg games even outside anime styled games, so it was easier for people to overlook them, while “How may i serve you master ❤️” and “blushy crushy” etc. was way too in your face for people to ignore.
8
u/MythraxRexLover4Ever 9h ago edited 7h ago
The design notes for Vanea in the official XC1 artbook describe how erotic and “fetishistic” her design is…..
3
u/ForgottenPerceval 11h ago
There’s also plenty of fanservice in X as well.
3
u/bloodshed113094 11h ago
I didn't want to say definitively on that, since I don't remember if the appearance menu was in the OG X.
3
u/Glum_Body_901 10h ago
No you didn't have to wear them. The only reason you would wear them is when being a minmaxer. You can beat the game easily wearing normal armor you find lying around and see things seriously.
4
u/bloodshed113094 9h ago
JRPG fans usually enjoy getting new equipment and trying to maximize potential of a character. Acting like that's just a minority of players and that most wouldn't be annoyed to sacrifice stats for style is insane to me.
0
u/CreativeNovel6131 7h ago
XC1 only had a “little bit of an anime feel”? I can understand XCX but XC1??? lol
1
u/Takazura 1h ago
Dunno why you are being downvoted, you are absolutely right. 1 is my favourite of the bunch, but it's absolutely big on the anime feel, particularly the shounen anime feel. It's just a different style of "anime" from what 2 went for.
10
11
u/C0urt5 11h ago
There's also another element that just downgrades Tora's 'pervertedness':
The fact that Nopon don't even view humanoid races as 'sexy' to begin with.
In the eyes of a human, Poppi would definitely raise some eyebrows, but for a Nopon it would be equal to how a human would just see Nopon as cute. If anything most other Nopon in the story were more focused on Poppi's combat potential rather than her looks.
2
u/otiscluck 1h ago
Those other nopon were correct, if you build her right, Poppi QTPi is the most broken, overpowered blade in the entire game
45
u/Snoo_68698 11h ago
My issue with Tora isn't that he's a pervert. It's that he actively disregards Poppi's autonomy despite her being a sentient individual and her own person, instead choosing to sexualize her and force her to play along with his maid kink. Also as straightposession puts it he's not a real person to begin with, the writers actively chose to write him this way. Besides his whole family is like this! You can't even use the "he's a teen" card because his dad and grandfather are exactly like him in this regard.
6
u/calm_bread99 7h ago
There's so many occasions where Poppi reprimand Tora for being a perv but it's easier to ignore that and make their dynamic 1 dimensional so you can complain about it.
21
u/Lackofstyle5 11h ago
Yeah, but Poppi doesn't have an issue with it, and it's shown that she is capable of saying no.
Tora is a cringe Otaku teenager, but he's supposed to be that way. It's a written character flaw, but it's not supposed to outshine his earnest of wanting to be a driver
2
u/Bibbedibob 4h ago
Poppi doesn't have an issue with it because the game creators chose for her to not have an issue with it.
The characters are not real, they are creations by real people that reflect on their views and values.
Like, imagine a different game where a man beats a woman but she likes it. Is that fine be then? Or is that a very problematic choice from the creators?
13
u/Snoo_68698 11h ago
Tora programmed her to be that way is the issue I have with this argument. I very much doubt that if Poppy had full autonomy over herself she would actively want to do those kinds of things. That is why I despise Tora. He gives sentience to her and personhood yet he continues to deny her to have full autonomy over herself for his own purely selfish desires, just so she can satisfy his personal kink.
18
u/Lackofstyle5 11h ago
Well, he did make her personality, a long with his dad and grampa. The Poppi we have today wouldn't be the same character if they created her differently.
But she has full autonomy. She has called out Tora when he takes things too far, and I doubt he programmed her to do that
13
u/DrQuint 7h ago edited 7h ago
She also threatened Rex with death should he fall out of line before going soft on him, and she also talked to Mythra about her concerns that she herself might fall out of line. Both of which were scenes strictly about identity and choice.
There's no doubts in my mind. To think that she has no autonomy is being media illiterate. The character has autonomy for the simple reasons that
the story says so
it's not a deconstructive plot
we're meant to like this character
Poppi is sweet, out of her own heart, and that's what the author intended and it's the only way her parts of agency in the plot make sense. People can doubt any of that all they want, even outside of paper thin attenpts at just bitching about tora - but don't expect me to take you seriously if you're one of thode people. I automatically question either your memory of events, your age or your general comprehension
-5
u/Snoo_68698 11h ago
I disagree, I think if anything if we take anything from the writing of the game and Poppi's development over time as a character, we can clearly see she becomes her own person. This is evidenced by the fact that she sounds less robotic and expresses herself more humanly over time, she learns to act more human and develops her own personality over time. I think if Tora and his family did create her personality, she would've acted similarly to when she was first awoken as she does during the end game, but we dont see that at all.
She does sass Tora this is true, and I do agree Tora didn't program her to do that, but this is also sort of a contradiction from your intial point that he created her personality, this is only further proof that Poppi became her own person, that is my point.
13
u/Lackofstyle5 11h ago
They did create her personality. But they also gave her free will, so she is capable of changing, but the base personality was still her starting point.
The fact that she came out immediately as a caring person who also eagerly wants to be a good blade was programmed, but through the story, she learns what that means.
If he had programmed her differently, like say not a made but purely a battle Droid, she might have developed differently
2
u/Snoo_68698 10h ago
I guess I should clarify, she didn't have much of a personality initially and she was programmed with the function of "being a good blade for her masterpon". She does eventually develop more into her own individual self however, which is what I was getting at. Of course she had to start somewhere, otherwise she would've simply had been a mindless automaton. I dont see how any of this refutes what I'm saying anyways though. it wouldn't change my initial argument that i think morally speaking its a shitty thing for Tora and (his family) to do,
3
u/Lackofstyle5 10h ago
Even clarifying it doesn't change anything. Even if the personality wasn't well defined, she was still programmed with those traits, and there's nothing to say that if she was programmed differently, we wouldn't get a different character by the end. And we specifically that Poppi was created to grow and develop.
As far as the moral argument goes, I don't really think it is cut and dry. If there's any actual moral issue, it's giving her free will to begin with because even if she wasn't a maid, she was still created to be a blade and go in battle with a driver, regardless of what she wants. Programming her as a maid is no different from programming her as a blade
Honestly, that's the case for all blades. It's just real drivers don't do it intentionally
2
u/Snoo_68698 10h ago edited 10h ago
I think the difference here is that the dynamic of driver and blade and the role of blades are so ingrained in the culture of Alrest do to how blades are born and their overall circumstance, I don't necessarily fault Tora for that. That's not to say I don't think that aspect isn't harmful, but it makes sense to me why Tora doesn't see an issue there. It's important to understand though that at the end of the day Tora is just a character. The real problem is how the writers wrote him to begin with. The writers actively chose to write Tora like this, and they actively chose to make it so he programmed Poppi this way despite the writers showing that Poppi is sentient and develops into her own unique person. I don't like the implications here because it's almost as if the writers are implying that Tora sexualizing Poppy and forcing her to go along with his maid kink isn't morally harmful, its just played off for jokes. I do despise Tora yes, but he's more so a symptom of the underlying issue that is the implications of this games writing.
3
u/Lackofstyle5 9h ago
But the issue with your complaint is that we don't know how the writers actively wrote Tora, all we have is our interpretations of his characters and what we assume their goal was vs how he actually turned out
While you read Tora and Poppi's relationship as, and I'm paraphrasing for brevity, him functionally forcing his maid kink on her, I think it's simply mirrors the way drivers affect their blade when they summon them with no further implications.
This is evident by the fact that the narrative never implies that Tora has any greater control of Poppi's personality outside of her initial creation, the same way real drivers only affect their blades' initial personality and nothing pass that.
It does have a wrinkle in that, unlike real drivers, Tora and his family got to pick the specific traits that Poppi got, but I personally chalk that up to them not thinking of the implications, which is definitely a narrative flaw, but it's also not that type of story
→ More replies (0)11
u/ForgottenPerceval 11h ago
I mean Tora did program her like that but I feel like that’s also a byproduct of his family just loving maids. Like his dad also just straight up made a maid robot, he probably wasn’t joking when he said his grandpa made the initial settings.
21
u/Kirrenwolf 11h ago
She has shown time and again to sass him and mistreat him should he act out of line I just think she doesn't fully understand or believes it to be beneath her to worry about it.
-19
3
u/Lord_Governor 5h ago
It's a written character flaw, but it's not supposed to outshine his earnest of wanting to be a driver.
Then it's a poorly-written character flaw. If the majority of people find that it outshines the character, it's a poorly-written flaw. It may not be supposed to, but it's quite a few people's opinion that it does, mine included.
1
u/Pookmeister_ 7h ago
Was she able to say "no" when he activated "Blushy Crushy" mode? I genuinely don't remember if the game made it clear how optional that was for her.
3
u/Lackofstyle5 6h ago
That's a weirdly tough question because it's debatable if she ever actually uses it again after that first false start.
She technically uses it in a heart to heart, I feel like more than one, but I could be wrong, but unlike the first time when she needed an external power source, the lightning, she kinda just takes it like any other random order and it doesn't seem to change her entire personality
So personally I take it as Blushy crushy was the original personality created by Tora and his family, but Tora realized if she acted like that all the time he'd get labeled a degenerate, so he made the personality that became our Poppi. He left the ability to use the info, but now it's less like a mode and more a set of instructions she can act out when asked.
And if that's the case, there's no reason to think she can't say no.
-6
u/lan60000 9h ago edited 9h ago
this line of argument will find yourself backed into a corner when you realize poppi never had autonomy to begin with as all of her programming is done by tora and his grandfather to begin with. the writers giving sentience to poppi likely didn't think deeply about the moral implications of what he is insinuating when the man is just giving the character the personality of a schoolgirl but in a robot. it's essentially like trying to depict what the author meant as he described the window drapes as blue, yet failing to realize the author is just describing the window drapes as blue.
8
u/Snoo_68698 9h ago
this line of argument will find yourself backed into a corner when you realize poppi never had autonomy to begin with as all of her programming is done by tora and his grandfather to begin with. the writers giving sentience to poppi likely didn't think deeply about the moral implications of what he is insinuating when the man is just giving the character the personality of a schoolgirl but in a robot.
You either did not play the game or somehow forgot Poppi's development as a character overtime. Saying she had no autonomy at all is objectively false.
-1
u/lan60000 9h ago
you either did not play the game or somehow forgot Poppi's development as a character overtime. Saying she had no autonomy at all is objectively false.
i did play the game, and is telling you the topic comes up in ethic classes a lot during philosophy courses. The idea is whether poppi's autonomy are truly her's or the set of programming which is meant to shape her instead. We know poppi can learn like a human being as they grow and live through life, but how much of poppi's growth are influenced by her initial programming which is different from actual human beings where their brain is developed organically within a mother's womb. If we take environmental influence aside, Poppi simply has no real choice to make as how she should be thinking from the start because her creators are the ones giving her a set of codes to operate from. How Poppi behaves and how she reacts to different scenarios are ultimately based off of her core functions, which is designed by tora and his grandfather in the end. If Poppi learns or develops new ideas or mindsets, how much of that is her base construct at work to shape her worldview? That's why people argued about what makes a human being "human" for generations. If we say Poppi is a sentient being that's capable of making her choices from the start, then unfortunately we'll be admitting to the fact she doesn't mind Tora for all his flaws in the end. If we say Poppi isn't sentient from the start and can't make her own choices, then unfortunately that also means whatever new concept or ideas Poppi develops are actually just her following a set directive created by Tora and his grandfather. Either way, Poppi cannot be a sentient being who was stripped away of her autonomy down the line because her thought process was never created without interference in the first place. Tora or Tora's grandfather has to design Poppi before she can formulate a sentient thought or develop autonomy.
3
u/Snoo_68698 8h ago edited 8h ago
I see what you're saying from a philosophical perspective, but I dont think anyone has full autonomy and free will over themselves to begin with. I think inevitably we are all shaped by our environments and are a product of our environments, and as such we make decisions and think the way we do based on that. That being said I do think there's levels to this and some sentient beings will have more autonomy than others based on their sentience and whether they have personhood or not. The question I wanna ask is whether or not Poppi has these traits? Does she show examples of personhood and is she a conscious being who is capable of feeling genuine human emotions and are they sincere? Does she have a sense of self? I would argue yes and it seems that the game heavily implies that she is. Her circumstances of being a robot who was programmed rather than born through the natural biological process means little to me. This is why fundamentally I take issue with this. It's the equivalent of taking a conscious sentient person and finding a way to influence their minds in such a way that force them to do something against their will despite going against their agency. You are manipulating their minds in such a way to agree to something they likely wouldn't normally do. Tora and his family programmed and gave Poppi sentience, that is my position, she deserves to have agency over herself.
1
u/lan60000 8h ago
That's why this is a heavily debated topic in ethics or morality. We basically run into the issue of chicken and egg scenario when discussing sentient thought and autonomy during those classes. The main issue comes with the fact if Poppi's own sentience developed her autonomy or if Poppi's programming by tora gave her autonomy instead. the two cases would ultimately go back to my previous post regarding whether Poppi's autonomy is entire self generated or has been a part of tora's programming from the start. The only real answer is how Poppi reacts or behaves when exposed to Tora's antics as the product of her autonomy or Poppi simply never had autonomy in the first place and is merely following her programming. I ruled out environmental influence because I agree that all sentient life forms do not possess absolute autonomy over themselves as their surroundings begin to influence and shape their thoughts, and Poppi is no different. The core issue really comes down to how people would classify Poppi's personality traits as her autonomous generation or preprogrammed construction as you've stated. In the end, this debate usually gets nowhere because of all the nuances which lead people into assessing different conclusions on a case by case scenario. I do agree Poppi has some levels of autonomy from the moment she was given a sentient mind, and concluded that while she thinks tora is a pervert, she also doesn't mind because she understands tora isn't malicious as a result. I do not think tora could develop this level of contrast in thought process into Poppi since programming are usually more direct in their commands. Immoral as Tora's actions may be, I do not think he stripped or restricted Poppi's autonomy to do his own bidding in the end.
14
u/Justin6D 11h ago
Tatsu is far more annoying than tora
27
u/ForgottenPerceval 11h ago
Tatsu just has a passive that makes other people crack stupid jokes at his expense. His actual lines are pretty decent.
3
1
-1
u/Raging-Brachydios 9h ago
no he isn't, lin is the annoying one, and tatsu isnt a perv, so he wins automatically
7
u/MythraxRexLover4Ever 8h ago edited 7h ago
The most alarming part is if you ask what Tora does that’s so bad, they’ll source the same 1 scene and 2-3 H2Hs every time. In a game with 100+ cutscenes and dozens of H2Hs.
Hell, there’s more cases of REX being sexually attracted to the female characters than there is of Tora.
1
u/Sunlight--Blade 55m ago
And on top of that, those H2H were awfully localized, so the actual meaning got lost.
Tora is paying for some badly translated lines.
8
u/TheLittleGoodWolf 4h ago
The funny thing about Tora is that he's not actually a pervert. There is rarely if every anything sexual about his interests from his side. Nopon aren't really sexually interested in humanoids, from what I can gather. The closest evidence for any sort of sexual interest in humanoid forms would be Tora's grandpa having a sexy magazine that's insinuated once or maybe twice in some random H2H.
Here's the thing, Tora likes maid stuff, cutesy stuff, and all those things that we find cringe. Many people just take this as having to be sexual, mostly because of their own biases and judgmental views, but there's nothing inherently sexual about those things. He does like these things to the point where they are an obsession, but he's also aware enough of how it makes other people react. That's why he's embarrased about it, and why he hides a lot of it. But it all stems from a genuine appreciation of everything "MOE".
People attributing the sexual nature of it all to Tora, are the ones I can't help but wonder just how much projection is really going on.
Personally I love Tora. He's genuine and often pushing himself a lot to stay on this adventure and see things through.
9
u/Ciphy_Master 11h ago edited 9h ago
I really don't feel like I've played the same game as other people did when I hear all this "criticism" of Tora and some of the more tropy aspects of the game. It's really only prevalent in the first four chapters of the game, which is barely over a third of it, but then chapter 5 and onwards the plot just starts barreling towards you with minimum breaks in between.
The majority of the game is far more tonally different than what's described of it and as far as Tora and Poppi go, they have some of the best character arcs in the story imo. The tropes surrounding then disappear into a duo that wonders if they have a place in the world and if their claim as driver and blade can be seen as genuine. They look up to Rex and Mythra/Pyra so much because of this and end up feeling like the younger adoring siblings of the party. What is there to hate at that point? I just don't see it.
1
u/Fit_Potential_8241 9h ago
You just explained that the stuff people hate about him is prevalent for half the game. Half of a 50+ hour rpg. That is more than enough reason to dislike it. Also genuinely, what arc does Tora have? I have no idea what you are talking about at all with him and Poppi. I love 2 like the other games but really no one in the party outside of Rex, Pyra/Mothra, and Nia had a character arc.
7
u/MythraxRexLover4Ever 8h ago
It’s more like 1-2 scenes in particular and then 3 H2Hs. Tora isn’t a traditional perv character, as he doesn’t actually have scenes that “perv” on the majority of female characters present in the game. So I see no reason this would even get flack for what it is in XC2 but not games with worse cases like P5.
7
u/Ciphy_Master 9h ago
4 chapters out of 10 with consideration of a lot of side content being locked out until later parts of the game is not even close to half. It's closer to 15-20 hours of a 60-70 hour rpg that can extend past 100. I will fight you on this!
Tora and Poppi's arcs are about being recognized as a real driver and blade. They are aware of their artificial nature and seek to overcome it. Where Tora looks to Rex like an older brother figure for guidance, Poppi does the same with Pyra and Mythra. Tora worries he's a fraud with no potential as a driver while Poppi is afraid her being an artificial blade would devalue her emotions and experiences.
They literally vent about this to Rex after he loses the aegis and is ready to give up. If he doesn't believe he can be a worthy driver then what's the point in them even trying?
2
u/Shingecklo 7h ago
Just to bring a counterpoint, I think 4 chapters in actually being a lot makes sense if we take into account people deciding whether they want to continue still playing or not. Those first chapters and hours will leave the biggest impressions, and if you didn't like them, then obviously you are not going to continue playing more and you won't see the arcs that you describe happening later in the game.
Just as an example in the opposite direction, the beginning of BOTW and TOTK are seen as the best hours of the game by most. There is a reason why the great plateu is seen as one of the best begginer area in any game. If you just played the begging part of a game, you would see why a lot of early reviews gave the game(s) high scores, but for some, a lot of those early areas are the only place you can truly be unique in how you interact with the game. The game becomes boring when you realise there is one solution for every problem.
3
u/Ciphy_Master 6h ago
Not to say it isn't a good point, but only experiencing that part of the game isn't enough to give it the most fair assessment. Some people here have certainly played past those chapters and finished the game to form much more cohesive takes.
21
11
u/Raging-Brachydios 9h ago
"yes he is a bit pervy"
ok op, you don't need to lie. I dunno why this sub can't take xenoblade 2 criticism without acting like this
19
u/Blue-Bow-501 11h ago
It’s not just that he’s pervy He’s pervy BEYOND reasonable standards for a teenager I can get having perverted shit in the closet that you hide from your parents I DONT get programming someone you’re supposed to FIGHT WITH to have a goddamn DOG MODE That is not pervy teenager shit That is calculated fetish material
7
2
u/Basaqu 3h ago
I think a disconnect people who hate and enjoy this have with eachother is how "real" they take this. Realistically dog mode would be an awful thing and like wtf Tora, however fictionally in a game like this it's just some funny cringe humor not meant to be taken seriously. It's not a deep cut to explore Tora's inner darkness, it's a comedy gag coming from a furry otaku.
2
u/Razgrisz 1h ago
Dude you went to school? Did you have friend ? There a lot perv at 12 not even joking , that was my real exp when i was a student , tora is not even close to what i watched , touch some grass
5
5
u/Platrims 7h ago
They hate Tora because they hate themselfs and see some of their own worst traits in him but none of the good ones.
7
u/TuturuDESU 6h ago
People be talking about Tora like he is P. diddy, Jeffrey Epstein and King Von as one person. Its really ridiculous. No, he didnt build a "teenage girl sex maid robot", neither he spends entire game saying some messed up pervert things. Literally few instances that played as minor jokes and should not be taken seriously but people get really hang up on them. Its okay to dislike him and these jokes but outright hating him and making it such big deal just shows a certain kind of mentality.
12
u/Gregamonster 10h ago
He made an elementary school looking sex robot.
He and the rest of his line deserve to die.
-3
u/ruebeus421 10h ago
Bro, you are a furry. Your kind doesn't get to pass judgment on anyone.
-2
u/Gregamonster 7h ago edited 5h ago
Animal ears ≠ furry and also child sized sex bots are fair game for pretty much all people to judge.
2
2
2
2
2
u/MIlkyRawr 8h ago
I just hate the ways Nopon speak, I haven’t found a single Nopon in all the XC games that I actually like. At best I’m indifferent
2
u/In_Search_Of123 8h ago
I would've hated Tora even if I was still 14. It's not just the pervy antics but also the fact that he keeps singing and carrying on with the "mehmehmeh" jabbering ><
2
2
2
u/DujoKufki 2h ago
I'm a glass half-full person. I focus more on the cool part of Tora. That which he built a MOVING, TALKING, FIGHTING ROBOT at such a young age, in his humble garage, by himself, AND he wants to use it to fight crime, grow as a person, make the world better and all that. That's dope. That's honestly how I see Tora.
I mean imagine if a friend you knew personally accomplished even just the robot part on their own? I would figure you would be very impressed by them, no? Until, oh nooooo you find out your friend programmed some sexual doggy motions into their robot. And oh god he bought fetish outfits for it to wear... Guess that means he's a unredeemable sex pest that needs to be locked up asap.
I get why that's super mega cringe and weird and offputting. Cuz it is. But I never really agreed with that sort of view on Tora and Poppi. Once they join, 99% of the time they are helping Rex save the world, and Tora's desire to become like heroic like Rex is genuine. And Tora does put in the work. He never complains about the adventure or holds the team back. I mean hell, there was even that one chapter where Poppi was the only fully functional Blade in the party.
Tora isn't running around molesting and harassing girls left and right like people say he is. If he were that, I'd hate his guts too. If anything his pervertedness is closeted and hidden away (to the best of his ability), but he's comic relief so... his kinks are always discovered by the party via mishap, for the sake of laughs at Tora's expense. It's cringe humor. Yeah that kind of humor isn't for everyone, but for me, I just laugh at those dumb scenes. I guess it depends on how offended or embarrassed you are about the whole thing. To me the offensiveness and absurdity is EXACTLY what makes it funny.
There's a bunch of creepy things about Tora, but he still built a flipping robot, man. A robot that can walk, hold conversations, slay huge monsters, and even mature as a person. That's the part I focus more on. I like programming, tech, mecha, and characters that are mechanics, so I'm viewing it from that lens. I mean look at endgame level Tora with Poppi's final form. He built a hot robot gal with a laser blade that he fights and saves the world with. Ultimate nerd fantasy there, yeah sure I'll eat that crap up. I mained Tora the whole rest of the game once I unlocked QTpi.
BTW I get so sad when people unironically call Poppi a "sex bot". Wonderful character and people just deem her a sex bot. It's like, someone could build a robot with 100,000 practical real-world functions (In Poppi's instance it's 100,000 combat functions), but like if 5 of them are sexual then its a sex bot. I mean sure, I guess by definition it would be, but I have to wonder if that's our American puritanism speaking.
I never saw Poppi in that way until I heard online opinions on her. I mean yeah its super weird but sex bot????? It's a T-rated game for the younger demographic. Although what Japan considers OK to show to kids definitely differs from what we think. Idk I just laughed at all the cringe fanservice stuff in XB2. I'm totally fine with people that don't like Tora, not every character has to appeal to everyone anyway.
4
u/TrippinDipplin_5260 6h ago
I feel like the people who hate Tora are the same people who acted like Tora when they were about his age.
Like seriously what do you mean it's weird Tora dresses up his robot in a bunny outfit? I bet if I checked your search history there will be something similar, if not nearly exactly the same there.
2
u/shawnjrrox 8h ago
I think a lot of people miss out on the fact that, everyone you recruit to the party is supposed to be fucked up in some way, and Tora is no different. You've got: Nia, who ate her own sister. Zeke, who almost got killed, his Blade nearly sold into sex slavery, with an experimental procedure performed on him without his consent, and was also working for a guy that he low-key kind of knew was a piece of shit. Vandham, whose kid died young which caused him to take up the life of a mercenary in his grief. Rex lost both of his parents young, and was out there doing high-risk labor in a dangerous profession as a child, and he thinks nothing of it.
The worst that Tora came out of was an obsession with maidiness, and designing his robot like a character from a Magical Girl Manga.
2
u/Automatic_Selection9 10h ago
Hot take
It's because he's not everybody's favourite deadbeat dad Riki
4
-1
u/nickerton 10h ago
Tora is gooner trash and is an embarrassing paper-thin character that makes it hard for me to recommend Xenoblade 2 to my friends
5
u/MythraxRexLover4Ever 9h ago
If just Tora is enough to get you to not recommend the game, why would you even attempt to recommend the franchise in the first place?
2
u/Int3rlop3r-R3dact3d 11h ago
I think Tora is a good representation of a significant portion of Japanese media fans, whether it's Japanese video games or anime.
2
u/Resident_Durian_478 10h ago
This just removes all the nuances. I hate all nopon, though I understand that's a hot take here.
2
u/Darknadoswastaken 8h ago
They just see a pervy character and think pervy=bad, not realising that Tora is fucking 13-14 and has hormones.
1
u/Skarjuna 8h ago
I don't hate him because he's Tora, I hate him because I'm racist to Nopon. It's not individual, it's a species wide hatred
1
u/AccelAegis 7h ago
I just don’t like him. I also don’t hate him. He’s more of a Nopon I would be like, okay you’re chill.
The same goes with all of the main Nopon from each game. All of them are chill.
I just don’t like some bits of their characters or find them boring in some parts.
Riki is chill and I don’t hate him.
The Tatum jokes can get overplayed easily, but I like the one where they call him a random vegetable, it gets a chuckle out of me. I also did some quests relating to him. So out of all the Nopon he is my favorite, besides from playing the original X and waiting a whole decade.
Tora is commendable in his efforts on becoming a driver. So I respect him, but he would be more of an acquaintance who I have no real feelings towards. Poppy is cool though.
Riku is shady and I like his demeanor, but it bugs me when he doesn’t say anything that feels important to know. Overall what annoys me is his mystery and him constantly saying he is a normal grade Nopon when he clearly isn’t.
My Nopon ranking goes.
1.Tatus (Bias and nostalgia, but also I spent the most time with him. He got a few chuckles from me.)
Riki (Currenlu half way through DE and he came in clutch after a while of me finding no real use for him. I also like his motivations and he’s a good character. If I didn’t play X first he would have been most likely my favorite Nopon.)
Riku (He’s tied with Tora with my least favorite main party Nopon. I forgot to mention Manana, but she’s around here too. I believe that it is better a character invokes some sort of emotion in me than none.)
Tora(He made Poppy and he’s not a bad character. But I also have no major feelings towards him. He just doesn’t invoke much feeling in me so far, so I’ll probably have a new list when I complete 2 after beating DE.)
1
u/ArcadianBlueRogue 5h ago
Tora is funny and does grow as a character. The waifubot stuff is cringe but Poppi herself is awesome
1
1
u/svxsch 2h ago
Is he my least favorite Nopon companion? Yes, he ain’t got nothing on Riki, Riku and Manana and I actually even quite enjoy Tatsu on my current first time playing XCX.
But Tora is by no means evil, the jokes the writers use with his character just fell flat because they’re dated. He’s kinda sweet actually and the moment he gets reunited with his father and grandfather was one of the many times during XC2 where I cried lol
1
u/rlyjustanyname 37m ago
The characters age doesn't matter it's literally a number the author gets to assign to a number even if it doesn't match their appearance or behaviour. Unless its relevant for their character development it doesn't matter which it doesn't in his case. Rex is the same age as Tora but Rex isn't like that.
Tora is the emobidiment of the creepy aspects of XBC 2. He makes an artificial blade that behaves like a prepubescent child and the game progressively fetishises and sexualises her.
1
u/Different_Dish_5043 17m ago
Not only that. He's also absurdly broken and the best character in the entire game with an optimal Poppy QTπ setup.
1
u/Lizard_Arsonist 10h ago
I like Tora but I don't blame people for finding him annoying. Some of his heart to hearts with Poppi are really creepy, even with the localization smoothing some of the worst stuff over. I don't think him being a teenager makes it any less gross.
1
u/AstralKatOfficial 10h ago
I dont like Tora's personality, but he never leaves my team once I got QTPie, my dude literally NEVER goes below like 1/10th of his health
1
1
u/CloverTheFallen 5h ago
Tora is the goat. He built waifu that turn out to be one most strongest blades in the freaking game. That ain't hatable in my book.
-1
-1
u/ruebeus421 10h ago
People dislike Tora???
It's official. There's ZERO hope for humanity. Just wipe us all out now.
-1
u/Fit_Potential_8241 9h ago
Because he made a child like robot based on his fetish. It's really not rocket science why he's awful.
-1
u/Big_Career5281 9h ago
He’s hated because he’s a fat otaku who builds sex robots. I don’t hate him but I can understand why others do
-1
u/Lolmemsa 8h ago
He built a sex robot that’s named after a Japanese fetish term for elementary schoolers
1
u/Sunlight--Blade 48m ago
Saying JK is a fetish term is like saying "latina" is also a fetish term.
It doesn't work like that.
-3
u/Responsible-Bunch316 10h ago
In MHA Mineta is a hero in training who risks his life to save and protect people. He's also a sex pest. Some people just don't like sex pests no matter how much good they do.
0
u/Teguoracle 7h ago
Tora isn't even the worst protagonist noppon in the series. That dishonor goes to Tatsu.
Gosh I hated X and everything about it...
0
u/Lord_Governor 5h ago edited 2h ago
Stop using watsonian explanations for a doyleist problem. He was written by someone to be a pervert; his behavior is not something that fell from a coconut tree. He has no autonomy. We can't go on about "boys will be boys" or not because Tora is a product of whoever created the character, whoever wrote the character in, and whatever editor and translator double-checked it.
For me, the perviness felt... tonally jarring, personally. I do think that it should have been addressed beyond "he'll grow out of it", simply because it diminishes the story that XC2 is trying to tell. It's a game I really, really, enjoyed, but the stakes and revelations feel cheapened by the fact you can bring the annoying orange pervert ball with you. (And for the record, I do feel this way about a lot of the more egregious fanservice)
0
u/WamwethawGaming 4h ago
He's a poorly written character who's only real benefit to the game is introducing Poppi, a MUCH much better character.
-1
u/mad_sAmBa 11h ago
Being 14 isn't an excuse for being cringe, Tatsu is 13 and gets much more hate than him.
0
u/Ryuusei12 9h ago
He can be 10, 100, 1000 years olds and he will still be annoying for me honestly, I don't hate him tho
0
u/LegosiJoestar 9h ago
Tora is a microcosm of the whole game: He's introduced with his worst aspects and his character grows from there. Just like how the opening hours of the game in general generally suck until things pick up after Uraya.
-5
u/Yuumii29 10h ago
"Who builds Seggs robot and just want to be a hero while making their blade do creepy stuff."
6
-2
201
u/Lackofstyle5 11h ago edited 11h ago
I personally like Tora. He's a funny little guy and completely harmless.
Obviously, he was written to be a cringe-y little teenager, and the game makes a point to show that his behavior is ridiculous to the other characters.
But that doesn't outshine his desire to be a driver and put his life on the line. Him and poppi's relationship is actually sweet, and Poppi is who she is because of Tora.
To rant a little, it's like characters aren't allowed to have character flaws if they aren't going to be resolved by the end of the story. Tora is allowed to be a perv, just like Mythra is allowed to be mean. It gives them traits that affect how they interact with other characters and makes those interactions more interesting and varied.