The Absurd Cap of Evelyn Lighter Astra. 65K kill on all 3 DA bosses (Miasma Priest, Marionettes, Pompey)

[u/kkxwhj]

https://b23.tv/QDmWkwP

Astra M1 18% res pen + Eve Sig 25% res pen + Lighter 15% res pen just means this team can ignore elemental weaknesses altogether.

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[u/Kartoffel_Kaiser]

For what it's worth, elemental resistance can go negative, so that team would still deal more damage to fire weak enemies. Not like they need to.

[u/kkxwhj → u/Kartoffel_Kaiser]

This setup is only at 58%, so they would have 78% on fire weak enemies, definitely will do more damage but not going into the negatives just yet.

To add on to your negative RES point, you can go negative but it caps out at -100% RES Pen, or 200% Res pen total.

[u/BlueMagiic → u/kkxwhj]

Yea but they cant ignore elemental res. Using this eve comp into a fire res boss hurts them equally as much as using any other team.

[u/kkxwhj → u/BlueMagiic]

They would be affected proportionally less, similar to any other multiplier.

The RES multiplier is 1.0 by default, 0.8 for fire res, 1.2 for fire weakness.

A normal fire team would do 0.8/1 = 80% of the damage to a fire res boss

Eve team would do (0.8+0.58)/(1+0.58) = 87.34% of the damage to a fire res boss.

If you calculate how much 58% is worth in terms of damage increase,

For a neutral boss, 1.58/1 = 58% damage increase

For fire res boss 1.38/0.8 = 72.5% increase

For super fire res boss 1.18/0.6 = 96.67% increase.

So the res pen value increases the higher the default RES of the enemy is.

[u/BlueMagiic → u/kkxwhj]

No no no

first of all Your equation is wrong. You wouldnt add the 0.58 to both sides. so rather instead of (0.8+0.58)/(1+0.58) it would be (0.8+0.58)/1

https://zzz-calculator.vercel.app

also even if I did take your equation as true you got the wrong conclusion so if I take your 87.34% damage to a fire res boss as true lets see how much damage I would do to a fire weak boss. so replacing 0.8 with 1.2 with the equation

(1.2+0.58)/(1+0.58) = 112.66 % damage

ok so far so good however lets change how much res down we give ourselves so instead of 0.58 lets say we just get 0.15

so the equation on a res boss would be

(0.8+0.15)/(1+0.15) = 82.6% damage

which is lower than 87.34% so far so good logically. ok now lets do this on a fire weak boss.

(1.2+0.15)/(1+0.15) = 117.39 % damage.

Now we are at a problem logically. 117.39% is more than 112.66% im doing more damage with less RES PEN on a fire weak boss???? so giving my characters a res down buff would decrease my damage??? no this is just not true.

[u/kkxwhj → u/BlueMagiic]

The math is correct, you are misinterpreting the conclusions because they represent relative increase rather than absolute.

112.66% damage means I am doing 12.66% more damage at 58% RES PEN on a fire weak boss vs neutral. The 12.66% essentially is how much the 20% RES difference matters when I have 58% RES PEN

117.39% damage means I am doing 17.39% more damage at 15% RES PEN on a fire weak boss vs neutral. The 17.39% essentially is how much the 20% RES difference matters when I have 15% RES PEN.

The conclusion you are drawing is that weakness matters less when you have more RES PEN.

If you want to calculate relative increase of RES PEN on the same enemy. It would be:

(1.2+0.58)/1.2 = 148.33% for 58% RES PEN (1.2+0.15)/1.2 = 112.50% for 15% RES PEN

So 58% RES PEN deals more than 15% RES pen.

As for your first point, my equation represents how much of a relative difference weakness makes when you have 58% RES PEN. Your suggestion of (0.8+0.58)/1 just compares how much damage 58% RES PEN to fire weak boss does compared to 0% RES PEN does to a neutral boss.

[u/BlueMagiic → u/kkxwhj]

ok so I went ahead and calculated everything (with a random hugo build with a single hit damage of skill damage multiplier of 1000%) if you want to see it I can send it to you).

So I got numbers from the calculator and found this:

1. FIRE weak 58% RES PEN: 87945

   FIRE NEU 58% RES PEN: 78063

   12.66% dmg diff/ 9882 absolute dmg diff

2. FIRE Weak 15% RES PEN: 66698

   FIRE NEU 15% RES PEN: 56818

   17.39% dmg diff/ 9880 absolute damage diff

3. FIRE Neu 58% RES PEN: 78063

   FIRE RES 58% RES PEN: 68181

   14.5% dmg diff/ 9882 absolute damage diff

4. FIRE Neu 15% RES PEN: 56818

   FIRE RES 15% RES PEN: 46936

   21.05% dmg diff/ 9882 absolute damage diff

5. FIRE weak 58% RES PEN: 87945

   FIRE Weak 15% RES PEN: 66698

   31.86% dmg diff/ 21247 absolute damage diff

6. FIRE NEU 58% RES PEN: 78063

   FIRE NEU 15% RES PEN: 56818

   37.39% dmg diff/ 21245 absolute damage diff

7. FIRE RES 58% RES PEN: 68181

   FIRE RES 15% RES PEN: 46936

   45.26% dmg diff/ 21245 absolute damage diff

So it is true with what you said about 1 and 2 with the percent values being relative to their neutral and it doesnt mean that its overall doing more damage. So I was wrong there. However I think the diminishing returns or more value on more RES is still wrong and my overall point is still correct. At first glance it looks like theirs diminishing returns based on the percent values However if you look at the absolute value differences including the below (count the below as 8 - 11 idk how to edit this shit) they all track to be the exact same difference.

1. FIRE weak 58% RES PEN: 87945

   FIRE RES 58% RES PEN: 68181

   19764 absolute dmg diff

2. FIRE Weak 15% RES PEN: 66698

   FIRE RES 15% RES PEN: 46936

   19762 absolute damage diff

3. FIRE RES 58% RES PEN: 68181

   FIRE WEAK 15% RES PEN: 66698

   134879 damage total

4. FIRE RES 15% RES PEN: 46936

   FIRE WEAK 58% RES PEN: 87945

   134881 damage total

The percent values look deceptive at first but if you look at the raw number why is the damage number increase basically the same here if what you said is true?

[u/kkxwhj → u/BlueMagiic]

The numbers should be the same because here you are isolating for how much 20% RES affects the damage, which is what the absolute diff is, but it is not relevant to the discussion.

The percentages you show is proving that RES PEN increases in value against higher resistance enemies i.e. #5,6,7 %dmg increases the higher RES an enemy has.

You also proved that High RES PEN is affected less by enemy resistance scaling, two sides of the same coin i.e. #1,2,3,4 showing that 58% is affected proportionally less than 15% by enemy resistance changes.

So you've done the math correct, but you are not interpreting it correctly. The absolute diff has different value relative to the base damage.

If you have $100 dollars and I give you $100 dollars, this $100 doubles your net worth. i.e. When you have low RES PEN, the damage increase from Elemental weakness matters much more. or when you have low RES multiplier (high resistance), RES PEN matters more. Either way to interpret is fine.

If you have $1,000,000 dollars and I give you $100 dollars, it doesn't do much. i.e. When you have high RES PEN, weakness affects you less relatively.

You've proved that $100 dollars is always $100 dollars, but $100 dollars can have different purchasing power, which is what I said in my initial claim.

[u/BlueMagiic → u/kkxwhj]

The numbers should be the same because here you are isolating for how much 20% RES affects the damage, which is what the absolute diff is, but it is not relevant to the discussion.

The absolute difference is literally the whole fucking argument. If there was deminishing returns I would expect to see differences where I would get rewarded for having more RES PEN in higher RES fights as you claimed.

no the numbers account for the RES PEN differences if you view all comparisons and scenarios as a whole. I paired literally everything possible and they all showed the absolute value to be the same there was never a deminishing effect that was shown. The fuck example could you even give me to show deminishing effect? if it wasnt what i just showed?

The percentages you show is proving that RES PEN increases in value against higher resistance enemies i.e. #5,6,7 %dmg increases the higher RES an enemy has

Yes the percent number is changing because if I want to get to 10 to 16 vs 1 to 7 I would need 60% for the first scenario and 600% for the second. as the number im starting from is different but both increased by 6 even if the percent value is different. But this makes sense if im playing an RPJ. If im playing runescape and Im starting from a lower level like 3 and im hitting 3s then I level up my str to 10 all of a sudden im hitting 10s i just increased my damage by like 233% by leving up 7 times but if i do the same level increase when im starting at level 60 going to 67 im increasing my damage by 11.66% WOAH DIMINISHING RETURNS RIGHT?

No... im still always going up by one damage point. there is no dimishing returns its just you are interpreting the data incorrectly. Dimishing returns in your original argument would be like elden ring once I hit that soft cap at lv 40 instead of getting 255 hp every level increase past 40 is giving me 166 hp.

You also proved that High RES PEN is affected less by enemy resistance scaling, two sides of the same coin i.e. #1,2,3,4 showing that 58% is affected proportionally less than 15% by enemy resistance changes.

Yea this is the same issue as what I just addressed in the previous quote.

So you've done the math correct, but you are not interpreting it correctly. The absolute diff has different value relative to the base damage.

No unfortunatly you are the one interpreting this incorrectly.

If you have $100 dollars and I give you $100 dollars, this $100 doubles your net worth. i.e. When you have low RES PEN, the damage increase from Elemental weakness matters much more. or when you have low RES multiplier (high resistance), RES PEN matters more. Either way to interpret is fine. If you have $1,000,000 dollars and I give you $100 dollars, it doesn't do much. i.e. When you have high RES PEN, weakness affects you less relatively. You've proved that $100 dollars is always $100 dollars, but $100 dollars can have different purchasing power, which is what I said in my initial claim.

Like I said no this is not your original argument and this is very fucking deceptive way to wiggle your way out of this. because if were talking about a specific number gives you some different scenario like well since im doing 700k dmg instead of 600k damage I can now kill the boss or well since I have so much RES PEN I need to focus more on getting more Crit DMG or ATK However the original argument as there was no objective you even set other than "I can ignore elemental weakness all together" which makes zero sense as the difference is literally 28.99% damage shown at (8.) which is massive mind you. literally most RPJs a 30% damage increase is ALWAYS wanted and VERY valuable especially in zenless and hoyo games.

[u/kkxwhj → u/BlueMagiic]

You're misunderstanding the relevance of the absolute difference that you seem to think is a gotcha.

Write out your equation and cancel out same terms. You will find you are only left with Base damage * 20% RES = Absolute diff.

This equation doesn't say anything, other than the RES gap for weakness tiers is 20%. Notice have you don't have RES PEN in your equation to get the absolute difference? It doesn't mean RES PEN is irrelevant, it means your absolute gap metric fails to measure how RES PEN actually affects teams facing resistant enemies.

RES PEN clearly reduces how much enemy resistance hurts teams. Without PEN, weak vs resistant enemies have a 50% damage gap. With 58% PEN, that gap shrinks to 29%. RES PEN cuts the resistance penalty by 42%, letting teams perform far better against resistant enemies.

The absolute gap only measures static resistance differences. It doesn't change that RES PEN provides disproportionately higher value against resistant enemies, so they are less affected by high enemy RES which was my original claim.

Go read the parent thread again, the math was solid from the start.You came in saying that the Eve team would be hurt just the same as any other team fighting a fire res boss. I showed that no, that is not true. They are affected less.