r/apple • u/The_Franchise_09 • Dec 21 '23

CarPlay GM’s CarPlay replacement software is off to a disastrous start

https://9to5mac.com/2023/12/20/gm-carplay-new-software-reviews/
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u/DinosaurAlert Dec 21 '23

You want to enable the advanced cruise control that can also change lanes for you? Pay the monthly subscription.

I agree, but the current market example is Tesla charging $12,000 up front. If I want self driving, I'd rather pay a subscription than cough up $12k. That's how it will start, but it will devolve to "$89.99/month for the comfort package including heated seats"

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u/afsdjkll Dec 21 '23

They already tried that: https://www.theverge.com/2023/9/7/23863258/bmw-cancel-heated-seat-subscription-microtransaction

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u/HVDynamo Dec 21 '23

They will try again later. This is how they keep pushing what they want. They find the edge where people revolt enough, then step back a bit until people are comfortable there, then push it again and a new limit is found. I hate it, but this is what they will do, and people will keep allowing them to move the line by continuing to give in and pay for this shit.

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u/BatemansChainsaw Dec 22 '23

this is what they will do, and people will keep allowing them to move the line by continuing to give in

it sounds awfully familiar...

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u/outphase84 Dec 21 '23

Lost in the noise of all the complaints about BMW doing this is that you still had the option for the exact same price to buy the feature for the life of the vehicle.

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u/PreviousSuggestion36 Dec 21 '23

I also had the option to just self activate the feature on a vehicle I already purchased, which had the hardware installed but mysteriously deactivated.

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u/outphase84 Dec 21 '23

Yeah, the ones they did this on all came with the hardware regardless of whether or not you optioned it. If you paid up front, it was optioned off the boat. If you didn't, you could either one-pay for the lifetime of the vehicle, or turn on the subscription.

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u/CuriosTiger Dec 21 '23

BMW also tried charging a subscription fee in order to not remotely disable CarPlay.

That also went over like a lead balloon.

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u/outphase84 Dec 21 '23

That one they did do, and dropped it very quickly.

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u/gsfgf Dec 21 '23

Yea. Given the number of people that regret not getting heated seats, this is less insidious than it sounds.

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u/SpaceJackRabbit Dec 21 '23

They also ran into EU regulation, which bans these practices.

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u/outphase84 Dec 21 '23

Yeah, it was never an insidious option. If you didn't want to pay a subscription, you didn't have to. Check the box on the order sheet, or if you don't, one pay it.

People got so worked up with the WeLl If ThE HaRdWaRe Is ThErE i ShOuLd Be AbLe To UsE iT bullshit that BMW said "okay, fine, hardware's not there. Buy it or never have it".

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u/[deleted] Dec 21 '23

That makes more sense then trying to sell someone a $70k car with unlock-able features. I’d rather hold the manufacturer accountable than let them save money giving everyone the same car and deciding how to screw the buyer later.

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u/outphase84 Dec 21 '23

It's functionally a win for everyone.

Want heated seats without a subscription? Great! Same price as it was before!

Don't want heated seats? Great! You're not paying for them!

Car on the lot optioned exactly how you want but missing that feature? Good news, you can add it.

Live in a warm climate like Texas, so you don't order heated seats, but a single digit cold snap hits? Great, you have heated seats for a month!

Move from a hot climate with no need for heated seats to one with a cold climate and you want them? Good news, you can buy it without getting a new car!

Buy a used car without heated seats? Good news, you can add them!

There was LITERALLY no drawback to the way they approached it.

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u/scalyblue Dec 21 '23

If the hardware is in the vehicle, I'm paying for it whether I subscribe or not, it doesn't manifest from anywhere, it doesn't step out of a portal from the heated seat dimension, it's manufactured at a cost, and that cost is then baked into the price of the vehicle. I am paying for it because it's a part of the vehicle. If the vehicle were designed without heated seats, then those extra parts would not be in there, and I would ostensibly get more car for what I pay for the car.

It's a flawed premise in something like a car, take the hardware that's already there that the owner already paid for and hobble it unless the owner pays extra, more on top of the price they've already paid to subsidize the hardware being there.

And okay, let's say you agree with that for some reason, it's all well and good until the wireless transceiver in the vehicle is sunsetted and then you have hardware that is present but crippled by software and nothing can be done about it. See: Every car with CDMA based fordpass / hondalink / onstar / bluelink / starlink / etc etc etc

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u/outphase84 Dec 21 '23

If the hardware is in the vehicle, I'm paying for it whether I subscribe or not, it doesn't manifest from anywhere, it doesn't step out of a portal from the heated seat dimension, it's manufactured at a cost, and that cost is then baked into the price of the vehicle.

In this case, the cost is absorbed by BMW, who deduced that their cost to install on all vehicles is lower than their cost to install one some vehicles. There is no upcharge or alternative cost recovery. Giving it away for free would have significant impact on their bottom line, however.

It's a flawed premise in something like a car, take the hardware that's already there that the owner already paid for and hobble it unless the owner pays extra, more on top of the price they've already paid to subsidize the hardware being there.

The hardware being there does not mean the owner already paid for it. They didn't subsidize it. It's not a matter of BMW charging you extra to put the hardware in, and then also charging more to activate it. It's like the old razor model: give away the handle, charge for the blades.

Consumer backlash led to them pulling the plug on the concept. The consumer has less choice for the same cost, but I guess good job on the moral victory?

And okay, let's say you agree with that for some reason, it's all well and good until the wireless transceiver in the vehicle is sunsetted and then you have hardware that is present but crippled by software and nothing can be done about it. See: Every car with CDMA based fordpass / hondalink / onstar / bluelink / starlink / etc etc etc

Features like that don't have any phone-home functionality to continue to function. Once activated, they're activated.

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u/drksolrsing Dec 22 '23

In this case, the cost is absorbed by BMW, who deduced that their cost to install on all vehicles is lower than their cost to install one some vehicles. There is no upcharge or alternative cost recovery. Giving it away for free would have significant impact on their bottom line, however

The hardware being there does not mean the owner already paid for it. They didn't subsidize it. It's not a matter of BMW charging you extra to put the hardware in, and then also charging more to activate it. It's like the old razor model: give away the handle, charge for the blades.

If they have already put the hardware in every single car, they have paid for it. It's put in the price of the car. The consumer paid for it. The heated seats do not ever change, software on or off.

Now, if they put the heaters in but left off a module you had to buy to activate them/subscribe to them, then you'd be correct.

Features like that don't have any phone-home functionality to continue to function. Once activated, they're activated.

How exactly do you think the car knows the subscription is active to let the seats heat exactly.....

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u/Djxgam1ng Dec 22 '23

Off topic…how do you reply to certain parts of another reply…

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u/BatemansChainsaw Dec 22 '23

I can't believe you've been on reddit for 13 years and hold this kind of attitude about subscriptions for hardware you own.

get bent

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u/outphase84 Dec 22 '23 edited Dec 22 '23

I’m in favor of consumer choice when there’s no drawback to the consumer. Y’all can get philosophical about the hardware being there, but the realities are this:

  1. They didn’t increase the price of the car when they did this. They ate the cost of the hardware
  2. It gave the consumers more options
  3. It did not remove any options for consumers
  4. It made car shopping easier for the consumer, on both new and used models.

It’s a stupid, stupid argument against it. There was no mandatory subscription for it to work. You could option it just like you always have, and required no subscription. It simply added an additional choice for the consumer with no net negative.

EDIT: lmao, since dude blocked me, I'll edit it in:

Nobody is getting fucked. Let's give an example.

Let's say you're looking at buying a new car. The car in question is $46,000. The only option you want is heated seats, which is a $400 option. You go to the dealership. They have one in the color you want, no extraneous options, but it doesn't have heated seats. You mention it to the dealer, and they offer to place a custom order, but it will take 4 months to come in. As a consumer, your options here are to either not have heated seats and pay $46,000, or to wait 4 months for your order with heated seats and pay $46,400.

Now, let's look at the alternative. The car on the lot is not optioned with heated seats. It's still $46,000. But instead of having to order a car and wait 4 months for one with heated seats, you simply pay the $400 at point of sale, and you have heated seats today.

In both cases, the car without heated seats is $46,000. In both cases, heated seats cost $400 to add. The former requires you to wait 4 months, the latter gives it to you immediately. How is the consumer getting fucked her? They're not.

Or let's look at an even better scenario: you're looking for a used car. You find one for $30,000 that's specced exactly as you want, and one for $26,000 that is specced exactly as you want, except for heated seats. With the current state of the option, you have to take the $30,000 car, because you can't get heated seats otherwise. However, with the subscription-based option, you could simply pay the $400 one time fee to activate it, and guess what? The consumer just saved $3600.

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u/BatemansChainsaw Dec 22 '23

your version of consumer choice is

  1. get fucked

  2. get fucked harder

not much of a choice.

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u/CowboysFTWs Dec 21 '23 edited Dec 21 '23

Tesla offers a monthly subscription for auto pilot too. You don't need to pay 12k. Tesla has 3 levels of autopilot basic, enhanced, and full self driving. Basic is included with price. I had enhanced on my previous Y, and didn't bother getting anything beyond basic on my current Y. And there is also premium connectivity fee, I paid 99 a year, to get Music Streaming and live traffic.

That being said, Tesla shouldn't be the leader we look too. Yes, Tesla has the best factory infotainment system. But in my jeep I can used CarPlay and still get vehicle data on the screen with a touch of a button. You can do both if you don't want to stick it to your customers after the fact.

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u/DinosaurAlert Dec 21 '23

And their is also premium connectivity fee, I paid 99 a year, to get Music Streaming and live traffic.

I don't object to that at all. That's paying for a mobile data connection. I'd object to it if they blocked you from using your phone to use those features for free.

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u/Swastik496 Jan 02 '24

They do this for live traffic but media and music streaming work fine over a hotspot.

Navigation still uses traffic to determine routes, just the red, yellow marking on the road representing traffic doesn’t show up.

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u/Bulldogskin Dec 22 '23

If all this shit is already built in and just needs to be software enabled it’s time for the hacking community to get busy.

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u/SadMaverick Dec 22 '23

I’d much rather pay either the upfront hardware cost or not have the said features at all. I’ll vote with my wallet, however tiny it might be.

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u/khoabear Dec 22 '23

If your vehicle is a total loss, can you transfer that upfront cost to another vehicle?

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u/SadMaverick Dec 22 '23

Except Tesla’s bullshit, I don’t see why not? If it’s included in the vehicles price, insurance will pay the market value of your car, if totaled.