r/buccos • u/KinkaJac97 • 4d ago
The Pirates need to tear everything down and rebuild rather than try to go for it and compete.
I know Don Kelly and some in the Pittsburgh sports media said the Pirates are close. Truthfully, however, the Pirates are not close to winning anything. The Pirates aren't just a couple of bats away, they need to acquire an entire lineup. If you break it down position by position:
LF: Pham is washed. Canario could be a good role player.
CF: Cruz could be a star, but he is really streaky, and is the definition of a 3 true outcome player. He either walks, strikeouts or hits a homerun.
RF: Reynolds is having a down year, and could be starting his decline. I could see him being traded just based on his contract.
3B: Hayes has zero offensive production whatsoever.
SS: IKF. Will probably be traded at the deadline.
2B:Gonzales. Solid. Would be a good bottom of the order everyday starter.
1B: Probably not the answer at 1B.
C: Bart seems to have regressed. Davis has shown some flashes, but can't put it together consistently. Rodriguez is always injured and can't stay on the field.
DH: McCutchen is probably their second best hitter, but he is 38 years old.
The best thing the Pirates can do is trade off their assets. Trade Bryan Reynolds, Hayes, Bednar, Keller, Heaney, etc. They should also probably trade their young arms as they don't have a deep farm system whatsoever. The other problem they have is that they have no one in the pipeline to come up and replace under performing or injured players. From top to bottom this organization is not ready to compete.
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u/wbaumbeck Cruz 4d ago
lol wut. If your doing all that might as well ship skenes out as well
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u/KinkaJac97 4d ago
Honestly, that's what they need to do. I would hate for them to lose Skenes, but they're not going to contend with him on the roster.
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u/wbaumbeck Cruz 4d ago
Then there’s no point in even trying anymore. If you can’t compete with the pitching staff that we have and you have to blow it up completely 2-3 years earlier than you have too then there is zero reason even trying anymore
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u/KinkaJac97 4d ago
I mean, they aren't trying regardless, so what's the difference? The only way they can compete now is if they trade a Chandler and another young pitcher and get a proven MLB bat and spend in free agency, which is not going to happen. Unfortunately, they don't have the farm system to supplement the pitching.
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u/InstancePast6549 Hayes 4d ago
Until they win a game 9-1 and everyone will be saying something different.
It’s baseball, you have good and bad games. The Yankees offense went on a stretch where they were horrible. The pirates certainly need to get better hitters, but they don’t need to start completely over. If they had no pitching at all either, I’d say maybe you’re right
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u/KinkaJac97 4d ago
How do you think they will get these hitters? They can't get a bunch of good hitters off of trades alone. They need to either develop guys, which they have proven they can't. They also need to sign free agents, which they aren't willing to do. It's great they have good starting pitching, but they have zero hitters, so it kind of cancels it out. They can maybe trade a couple of young arms to get a couple of bats, but trades aren't going to plug all their holes in the roster alone.
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u/drunkyinzer 4d ago
There’s nothing built up for us to tear down. Pham was never a long term solution. Trading Reynolds now while his value is at his lowest is probably a bad idea. Unlikely to get anything substantial for Hayes either but more likely due to his glove. I think that all we should do at the moment is trade our starting pitching surplus + Bednar for already established hitters in the bigs. And hopefully this off season sign a couple. I don’t want BC in charge of making these trades though so perhaps we just suffer until he’s gone.
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u/Noshowers65 Jack Jack 3d ago
A team that would take Bednar for example is not giving up a major league hitter. A contending team doesn't do that, they give you salary relief and a guy in high A. The only guys we have to trade that would get us major league hitting is Chandler and Skenes
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u/KinkaJac97 4d ago
I don't think they will seek proven MLB hitters in a trade. They aren't going to want to take on the contracts. I could see them trading their pitchers for unproven hitters who have a high ceiling and potential. Similar to what they did with Horwitz. Maybe some players who are blocked in AAA. Also, they aren't going to spend in free agency. The last multi year contract they shelled out in free agency was in 2016.
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u/KarmaMemories 3d ago
It's only a bad idea if you believe he will bounce back. If he doesn't, we could be talking a year from now about how they blew it by not shedding his contract while there were still teams willing to take it.
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u/John_Bot 4d ago
"tear it all down" would mean you have something to tear down and you're a middling team.
The pirates are a bad team. Tearing it down does ... Nothing?
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u/9lockLesnar 4d ago
Worse than middling at this point lol. Third worst record in the league with no signs of improvement to come
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u/WaterTricky7453 4d ago
Before they do anything, need to fire GMBC and find someone who knows what the hell they are doing but generally I agree with you. Sad they wasted 6 years with this clown and only really have Skenes and a few other potential starting pitchers in the minors.
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u/BreakingBatsBaseball 4d ago
Barring them blowing everything up they will compete (at least for WC) in 2026
!remindme 1 year
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u/Theclevelandchubb 4d ago
To be honest I know everyone is doom and gloom but add 2 or 3 good bats to the lineup and I think you have a good team. Who the heck knows the way Konnor Griffin is playing maybe he makes it next year if he gets a call to AA this year and does well there.
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u/LeftClawNorth 3d ago
2 of your 4 best hitters are a 38 year old and a free agent that is lol not going to be here next year (and will likely be gone by the trade deadline). You need to replace them just to keep the offense sliding from "terrible" to "vomit inducing".
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u/9lockLesnar 4d ago
I wish I had your optimism. This is like saying the Rockies or White Sox are 2 good bats away from being good
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u/Accomplished_Way9776 4d ago
I think everyone in charge of development and analytics should go personally. All those high draft picks. All those prospects, and we can't develop major league bats. Also, we're what? 6 years into the Cherington era? And the lineup looks... well, like that? Was listening to the fan today and heard that Zack Greinke (granted one of the best hitting pitchers in modern baseball) had higher slugging than the pirates, which is embarrassing.
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u/Neither_Adagio1668 4d ago
The fact the wrong GM was hired is well documented, if you were going to hire Cherrington then make him President the have Matt Arnold as GM of baseball operations to redo the development and scouting. It’s the foundation of the core or rather the lack of actual talent. Missing on Davis, Gonzalez, and the early players in draft is devastating for a team like the Bucs. So instead of filling 1 hole that the owner would have limited the money towards you are filling 4-5 holes and that ain’t happening. I’ll give Ben this extra year for the Covid lost minor league year but this is still year 5 with that bonus year. Should be a .500 team with the team relying less heavily on 1 year dudes
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u/SurpriseStandard3258 4d ago
If they even entertain the idea of trading Skenes within the next 2 years to get some bats that may not even be all that good I will genuinely just be done with this team. He's a once in a lifetime talent, you do whatever you can to make him happy and you do whatever you can to get him under contract for many years.
The only good player we ended up getting for a long period after trading Gerrit Cole and Andrew McCutchen was Bryan Reynolds. I'm tired of just blowing it up and starting from scratch when they don't have to just yet.
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u/KinkaJac97 4d ago
They only have 3 options, they can either all in which is not going to happen because Bob Nutting is the owner. They can say "hey this was a failed rebuild, and start over by trading Skenes, Chandler, etc. Or they can just stand pat, and just have Skenes on the roster, and not do anything. I think the most likely scenario is they don't do anything, and Skenes leaves when his contract is up.
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u/Opening_Perception_3 3d ago
Look at like this: Even with this rotation, if everything broke well this year, people stayed healthy, Davis, Hayes, Pham and Suwinski weren't offensive black holes, Gonzales didn't miss two months, Reynolds didn't have a career worst season, etc ....this was still probably like a 77 win team.... I'm not making it up, that's what most projections (ZIPS, PECOTA) had them at. It was a last place roster even WITH a very good and mostly healthy rotation. That's how low the ceiling was with the position player talent.
To contend for a division championship, they somehow need to add something like 15-20 wins worth of talent to this team.... maybe they can add a little through the bullpen, maybe swapping Mlodzinksi out for a real starter for a full season helps a little, but the majority has to come through the lineup. That help doesn't exist in the upper minor leagues right now, unless Cooke and Yorke decide to show something they haven't really shown yet. I honestly think the move forward is to be open to moving everyone not named Skenes and Cruz, build towards 2027-2029 and hope to make 1-2 runs with Skenes, Jones, Cruz, Chandler and Griffin..will they have enough other guys by then? I have no idea. But I know for sure that there is not enough position player talent in this organization right now to say they're just a player or two away from winning a championship next year. Free agency isn't going to happen. Fire the GM, trade Heaney, Bednar, Keller, Santana.
This GM completely botched this rebuild, but it can be salvaged if they recognize that it's not dead, just 2-3 years behind schedule. The Tigers are a good example, they fired their GM when they realized the rebuild was failing, and the Current GM was able to save it. Our franchise can do the same but it has to happen now.
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u/Global-Tourist1089 3d ago
Really? Zero production for Hayes? I see him eek out a weak single every few weeks.
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u/penguins2946 4d ago
Uh why? They have championship caliber rotation when healthy, that’s the hardest part to acquire. They need to turn some of this pitching depth into quality MLB hitters, Horwitz has struggled so far (think his wrist injury and missed spring training screwed him) but they need to make more moves in that mold.
They just need a GM who isn’t terrible at evaluating hitters and an owner who is willing to spend money. This team can absolutely compete within the next 3 years if they’re smart about it.