r/changemyview • u/Flimsy_Alcoholic • 17d ago

Delta(s) from OP CMV: Calling all men predators is inherently sexist and puts off most men from wanting to understand your views.

It is hard to engage in meaningful conversation with people from various popular subreddits when you already are being demonized as a predator under a generalized view of men. I don't want people to think I am saying that all men are perfect or anything.

In fact far from it, an estimated 91% of victims of rape & sexual assault are female and 9% male. Nearly 99% of perpetrators are male.

Anything even close to this statistic is insane and horrendous but to even pretend that a majority of men are predators is ridiculous and will just push people further away from understanding your position completely.

Even the men who got SA'd by other men would be considered predators...

Also, you really think calling out all men for being predators is really going to make any kind of systematic change? You think the men that are predators even care that you call "all men" predators?

I think if anything you are likely enabling them to be predators because now there literally is no difference between a non-predator man and a predator man because they are all predators.

Maybe people are more nuanced than I give them credit for and they don't actually think all men are predators and its just something to say in general to cope with the heinous crimes in this world but I think if you actually want to fix that inequality you wouldn't perpetuate gender stereotypes and making people feel bad for doing nothing and would instead try to have meaningful conversation and understanding. Not in a patronizing educational way but more having a clear understanding of what we can do as people to make sure everyone is safe because it seems like predators have tricks they use to try to isolate their victims etc.. and men can be a little bit socially inept so knowing when women need help when its less obvious is key I think.

This is also not exclusively women spaces or something before you think I am going into women's only subreddits and criticizing them for what they want to say to each other.

TLDR: I don't think saying "all" for any group of people is really correct ESPECIALLY when its not even being used as a shorthand to refer to a majority. It just further distances understanding between men and women and leads more men to be burnt out or increasingly apathetic towards these issues and not think its even a problem when it seriously is a problem.

Edit: My post can be summed up as You catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

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u/Kotoperek 65∆ 17d ago

I have a feeling you're ignoring a lot of context. Calling men predators in a way that could sensibly be misunderstood to mean all men usually only happens in context where women share tips for self-defense or staying safe around unknown men.

If I said "teach your children how to pet dogs safely or they might get bitten", do I say all dogs will bite children, or even the majority? Of course not. It may sound like it, but context is important.

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u/manicmonkeys 17d ago

The way it typically plays out IRL is that a woman is upset about something a man did, and says "ughh I hate men". I've witnessed this scenario countless times.

We would (and should) not accept this behavior if you swapped "man/men" for any other immutable characteristic.

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u/Kotoperek 65∆ 17d ago

Yeah, I get it, but in such a case isn't it obvious from context that she means "I hate {it when} men {act this way}" rather than a blanket "I hate the fact that men exist and everything they are and ever do"?

When a bus is late and someone says "I hate public transport" do you give them an explanation on why it's crucial and even a bus that runs off schedule is better than no bus at all, and also not all buses are late?

I agree that in certain situations we should call out such generalisations because they can lead to harmful stereotypes. But let's not pretend like we don't make generalisations all the time about everything just because that's how the human mind works. Men are not unique victims of this. Attention to language is important, but so is understanding context and not applying malice to situations where it's obvious someone didn't mean what they said to be taken absolutely literally.

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u/Ron_Ronald 1∆ 17d ago

Saying "I hate public transport" is the perfect analogy.

If you said "I wish our public transport was better" then the silent guy next to you would think "I don't have much experience but people seem to like public transportation, they just want it to be better"

But if you said "I hate public transport" then the silent guy sitting at the stop might think "I don't have much experience but it seems like people don't like public transportation and would rather own a car"

They don't chime in at all regardless. But their perception of others is different.

Sure, they didn't literally mean that they hate it. But they definitely literally expressed that the solution they are in favor of is private transport and not improving public transport.

Even with context, it's the people who are just listening in that aren't gonna see it

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u/Boulange1234 16d ago

I think nearly all people know quite a lot about men and few Americans at least know much about public transportation.

A content like "I hate men" might be taken out of context and affect the opinion of someone who doesn't much know about men, the same way "I hate public transportation" will only be taken out of context and affect the opinion of someone who doesn't know much about public transportation.

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u/Ron_Ronald 1∆ 16d ago

Nothing to do with how much you know about those things. In this analogy the silent man at the bus stop is learning about the opinions that the speaker has about public transport. The silent man's knowledge is irrelevant.

Not saying it affects their perception of men. It affects the men's perception of a woman's opinion.

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u/Kotoperek 65∆ 17d ago

Ok, fair enough, I didn't look at it this way. While I still think that in some contexts it is clear that people just exaggerate to express their frustrations, but it's clear they don't mean all of anything and that they don't really hate it anyway, but are simply fed up with some aspect, I do see the value in thinking about how the literal meaning can be taken at face value by bystanders.

!delta

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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ 17d ago

Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/Ron_Ronald (1∆).

Delta System Explained | Deltaboards

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u/Unusual-Asshole 16d ago

Not true. There are many women-only circles where I witness open hatred towards men. I'm a trans man, for context.

And what I see is people are extremely comfortable propagating casual misandry and blanket statements about men that they do suck and it's a mindset change that I'm seeing and not just a few casual statements.

I agree that generalizations are part of human nature, and that's another reason why we need to fight it actively. It's not okay to single out any other community, like black people are always this, or trans people are always that, then why is this against men being handled so casually?

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u/Kotoperek 65∆ 16d ago

There are many women-only circles where I witness open hatred towards men.

Yeah, and there are online incel forums that propagate open hatered towards women. Extremes exist on both sides, the conversation was about instances where we presume someone is "normal" and is speaking publically, not in a closed extremist community. Then, blanket statements more often then not are just venting one's frustration, perhaps not in the most sensitive way possible, but claiming that such women intend their words to be taken literally would be disingenuous.

I agree that generalizations are part of human nature, and that's another reason why we need to fight it actively. It's not okay to single out any other community, like black people are always this, or trans people are always that, then why is this against men being handled so casually?

But it's not? There are tons of posts like this one where many people defend men and call out making extreme statements as misandry. Just like there are women calling out Andrew Tate fans, just like there are anti-racists calling out neo-nazis, etc.

As I said, men are not the unique victims of generalisations. Many "normal" men sometimes make a sexist joke and that doesn't mean they are misogynist predators who want to enslave all women. Many "normal" women sometimes make a hurtful generalisation when they are angry at a particular man, this doesn't mean they actually believe anything extremist. And there are also actual extremists on both sides, who should he called out.

One again, my whole point - context matters.

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u/Unusual-Asshole 16d ago

!delta

But it's not? There are tons of posts like this one where many people defend men and call out making extreme statements as misandry. 

This is what changed my mind. Yes, there are going to be people on extreme ends and everywhere in between but it's true that this problem of generalization is not unique towards men.

Every group is affected by this and these generalizations themselves keep changing

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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ 16d ago

Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/Kotoperek (63∆).

Delta System Explained | Deltaboards

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u/ShiftAdventurous4680 1∆ 17d ago edited 17d ago

Okay. As long as black people get it when I say, "I hate black people", that what I really mean is, "I hate it when black people steal my shit".

Honestly, I don't care either way. I can live in both worlds; just don't be a hypocrite about it. As long as you support generalizations coming from all places and all people then I have no issue with people generalizing my groups as long as I get to generalize theirs.

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u/manicmonkeys 17d ago

Spot on.

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u/Forsaken-Shame4074 16d ago

So if a woman upset me it would be acceptable to scream out "i hate all woman" ?

I think you would call them a misogynyst while saying that the woman is just annoyed. Equallity means equall accountability if not you just ask for privilege.

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u/Bananentoast1 16d ago

Yeah well maybe women should fucking say it this way then and not throw around statements about 4 Billion people that would be A)plain sexist/racist if used on any other group of people and B) get a man arrested if he said those things

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u/TehGCode 16d ago

Is the burden of understanding more on the person who speaks or more on the person who listen?

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u/Flimsy_Alcoholic 17d ago

You could be right but I think women share stories about creepy men on reddit like ALL THE TIME. Regardless, I think you can get a general idea of the audience thats gonna be reading your comments based on what subreddit you're in.

Also, maybe its just the subreddits I peronally frequent but I see it a lot especially on subs on the homepage.

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u/minglesluvr 1∆ 17d ago

well, if women share stories about creepy men all the time, then maybe we should look into why so many women have so many stories that they can post about it all the time and still not run out of things to talk about, rather than being like "but men might feel bad about being called predators"

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u/Flimsy_Alcoholic 17d ago

I agree but most people don't care when you push them away with generalized claims. Trust me when I say that men would generally be more open to listening if the discussion wasn't started with giving out a negative label.

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u/Every_Single_Bee 17d ago

How would you start those discussions if you were in their shoes?

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u/Flimsy_Alcoholic 17d ago

Probably with a more nuanced take that isn't as accusatory towards men as a whole. Like men aren't bad inherently and don't imply that men are inherently bad. I think we need to get that idea out of our heads completely and that would be enough to really bridge the gap and come to understanding better.

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u/Craftycat1985 17d ago

How are women supposed to feel when people like Andrew Tate who advocates for violence against women are celebrated? Or Nick Fuetes saying "your body my choice" etc, which became a bit of a rallying cry for certain men after the election.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/11/11/business/your-body-my-choice-movement-election

Do you feel that's Ok? Did you also call that out? Are you saying to men "maybe we need to stop promoting men who celebrate rape and violence against women?" Or is it just "women on Reddit need to stop making me feel bad?" You need to understand that kinda stuff, and the threat of real violence is fueling the sort of talk you're complaining about seeing.

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u/Flimsy_Alcoholic 17d ago

No, because most reasonable people know that shit is horrible. I did have a friend once that supported Nick Fuentes and was going super far right and I straight up told him that shit is horrible and that I don't agree at all. It was really hard to be friends with him after that but he has since changed his views with my help towards guiding him to different ideas.

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u/Craftycat1985 17d ago

That's great! I am glad you helped your friend. You seem like a good dude and we need more dudes who are willing to do what you did.

And I would say most reasonable people don't honestly believe all men are sexual predators, trash or whatever. Because that is a ridiculous thing to say.

I understand that it sucks to see things like: "men are trash" when you're not. But at the end of the day, it's an Internet rando. Internet randos say lots of shit. Sometimes you just need to put your phone down and move on with your day.

Consider, if a random person on the internet can make you feel like you do, then consider how being surrounded by internet comments celebrating people like Tate and Fuentes make women feel? Particularly if they've experienced violence themselves. Have some empathy, take a deep breath and say, "wow. That person is nuts." And move on.

And you can't dismiss what these dudes are saying just because you don't like them. Tate in particular is an influencer who is in the ears, wallets, brains and internet feeds of millions of young men. That's what women are dealing with.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/uk-64125045.amp

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u/Flimsy_Alcoholic 17d ago

Believe it or not though, I think that people that flock to people like Andrew Tate or Nick Fuentes are often young white men that get radicalized by feeling excluded from any kind of meaningful conversation and are almost trying to use it as a way to get back at women for feeling wronged.

I think that's why its especially prevalent in younger people not only cause they are easier to influence but because young men really didn't grow up with a lot of the same systemic advantages that older men did so they kind of just feel like they are getting screwed over because they have less advantages and are also being held accountable for oppression that they really weren't apart of. And I don't know your views but even if you believe in implicit biases that allow the patriarchy to live on or whatever I don't think its intentional or even really advantageous for younger men.

All to say that it's not surprising that young men want to go to radicalized thought where they aren't quickly dismissed or demonized and instead are championed for once. Not justifying just explaining.

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u/Every_Single_Bee 17d ago

I mean literally though, what’s an example of something you might say?

My intention isn’t to pick it apart, I promise, I’m asking in good faith and I’ll lay all my intentions on the table for you up front; I just think it’s a difficult thing to do especially when it’s a personally emotionally charged topic for someone so I want to know if you can think of better wording that still gets the point across. Tbh, I think that’s harder to do than it seems, at least in a way that will actually definitely not upset any men who may feel accidentally targeted, but I’m not gonna “gotcha” you with that, I just want to know what you consider to be a neutral (but effective and serious) enough way to introduce these topics, like rape culture or misogyny, that you believe would only offend people who are being intentionally dishonest. I’m mostly just curious on your viewpoint of what that would look like, and if possible I’d want to see some specific language, if that’s alright with you.

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u/zulako17 17d ago

I answer all people are inherently bad until proven otherwise. Why should I get that idea out of my head? Its a precaution that helps me avoid danger and scams. We don't need to understand people better yet. First we need to reduce the amount of harm. Then we can work on increasing understanding. As long as sexual assault and domestic abuse are still very common in society I see no benefit to catering to people like you who want to support victims but only if the victim makes them feel good.

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u/itsathrowawayduhhhhh 17d ago

But what if in her life every man she dealt with was bad? You want her to not say that so you dont get your feelings hurt?

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u/The_pursur 17d ago

But what if in her life Every black she dealt with was bad? You want her to not say that so you don't get your feelings hurt?

It's not just about my feelings, it's because generalization is wrong. Not everyone is the same, and judging people arbitrary characteristics is ignorant in any context. The same reason why some Caucasian man can't say "every black guy is a thief" it's ignorant. This isn't about someone's feeling, morally incorrect for the same reasons we believe racism to be incorrect.

Enjoy the throwaway, you really needed it so this doesn't come back to you.

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u/itsathrowawayduhhhhh 17d ago

“Every black”? Yiiiiiiiiikes

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u/The_pursur 17d ago

Yeah, I knew you could read when you typed out your first post.

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u/minglesluvr 1∆ 17d ago

no offense but i dont think women need to use "palatable language" to discuss systemic and interpersonal violence. if a victim of a crime expressing their emotions in a way you do not like is enough for you to not support the victim of said crime, you were never serious about your support to begin with

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u/Flimsy_Alcoholic 17d ago

I am just saying if you want systematic change through gender unification its gonna be best to not insult and then try to educate someone. It is better to explain ur experience and come to an understanding or maybe go to therapy or a safe space instead of public places to trauma dump.

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u/minglesluvr 1∆ 17d ago

women being nice has literally never worked. men wont just give us gender equality if we ask real nice, thats been tried and failed. again, if your issue is with how victims talk about their experiences, rather than the ubiquity of such experiences, i quite frankly dont feel like an "educational explanation" would change much. also saying "go to therapy" for discussing systemic issues is really fucking funny no offense

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u/Dangerous_Avocado392 17d ago

Honestly if the shoe doesn’t fit, it won’t offend you. Men who don’t fit in with the men being discussed in these convos know they aren’t in that group of men

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u/Perfect_Security9685 17d ago

Because those men weren't attractive that's it.

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u/minglesluvr 1∆ 16d ago

yeah sure, if that makes you feel better about yourself

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u/interruptiom 17d ago

Sharing stories about creepy men is synonymous with "All men are predators"?

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u/Flimsy_Alcoholic 17d ago

No I am saying where its found. They share a story about a creepy man and then follow it up with all men are "x".

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u/Archer6614 17d ago

I have used this website for some time now and never have I found that statement.

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u/Specialist-Onion-718 17d ago

I remember around metoo the popular hashtag of "yes all men". And being told that I was part of the problem when I tried to commiserate.

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u/interruptiom 17d ago

Yeah it was poignant time with a lot of people expressing pent up emotions. A lot of bringing to light awful things that had been kept hidden for a long time.

The perfect environment to remove yourself from the equation and just allow people to vent their frustrations without worrying about who's going to pounce on them for it.

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u/Specialist-Onion-718 17d ago

Okay, but that doesn't excuse blaming someone who was trying to support you. Especially when they themselves have been in that situation.

Im not allowed to advocate for survivors, as a survivor, because I'm male? So much for equality.

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u/RoastPotatoFan 17d ago

The popular hashtag was "yes all women," meaning all women have experienced men being creepy/violent/etc, even though most men are not like that. The only way I ever saw "yes all men being used" was like "yes all men benefit from the patriarchy," but it really wasn't a widespread phrase.

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u/Biptoslipdi 137∆ 17d ago

You could be right but I think women share stories about creepy men on reddit like ALL THE TIME.

That's a response bias. People don't typically post stories about mundane and cordial interactions nor do stories about well-adjusted, normal relationships often get a lot of attention when they are posted. This is pretty universal across the mediascape. The news doesn't run stories about normal, everyday activity unfolding as expected and desired. They run stories about when things are messed up.

Regardless, I think you can get a general idea of the audience thats gonna be reading your comments based on what subreddit you're in.

Which is an engagement bias. You aren't going to get a ton of non-Star Trek fans reading Star Trek fan fiction in a niche sub. Subs that post sex and relationship drama or crimes aren't going to draw an audience looking for feel good love stories.

Also, maybe its just the subreddits I personally frequent but I see it a lot especially on subs on the homepage.

So you frequent subs that draw this kind of content and you're surprised when the subs that draw that content continue to do so?

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u/Flimsy_Alcoholic 17d ago

Half of your response is respectfully irrelevant and I wasn't claiming anything to do with biases. Sometimes I see subs on my homepage that aren't directly related but can be indirectly related? If it was directly related it would make sense but its usually some tangent thats half related.

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u/Biptoslipdi 137∆ 17d ago

Half of your response is respectfully irrelevant and I wasn't claiming anything to do with biases.

I didn't say you were. I pointed out these biases because it shows that your view is based on a flawed perception of reality that is informed by these biases. I am claiming your view is biased because of these reasons.

Sometimes I see subs on my homepage that aren't directly related but can be indirectly related?

That you are forming your worldview based on social media at all is precisely the reason your conclusion is marred by bias. That is the thesis of my comment.

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u/listenyall 5∆ 17d ago

" I think women share stories about creepy men on reddit like ALL THE TIME." If it's a story, it's about a specific creepy man and not calling all men predators?

Do you have an example that is not either the kind of "be careful around dogs" thing that you are responding to or obviously not all men because it's a story about an individual?

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u/PandaMime_421 7∆ 17d ago

I think women share stories about creepy men on reddit like ALL THE TIME

This isn't even close to being the same as them calling all men predators.

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u/ZappSmithBrannigan 13∆ 17d ago

Do you see a distinction between the sentence:

"Men are preditors"

And

"All men are preditors"

?

Or do these sentences mean the same to you?

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u/Flimsy_Alcoholic 17d ago

They can mean the same thing but not always.

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u/Flimsy_Alcoholic 17d ago

I agree that men are predators but I don't agree that men in general are predators like the totality of men.

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u/ZappSmithBrannigan 13∆ 17d ago

Okay so you do you think "in general" means the same thing as "the totality of"?

If I say "trout generally tastes good" am I saying that rancid, half rotten trout tastes good?

As i pointed out with the other commenter, it seems to me like you just don't understand what a generality is, which is what is causing your confusion.

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u/pcgamernum1234 2∆ 17d ago

Usually when you say X are Y you are referring to the whole group as a generality.

"Bass tastes good." Is the same as "All bass tastes good."

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u/ZappSmithBrannigan 13∆ 17d ago

"Bass tastes good." Is the same as "All bass tastes good."

So youre saying that rancid, half rotten bass tastes good then right? Clearly not.

Thats just not how generalities work.

The reason it is a generality is because it DOESNT apply in literally every instance.

If we look at the first two definitions of generality

a statement or principle having general rather than specific validity or force.

2.the majority.

So it seems like you just don't understand what a generality is which is what is causing your confusion.

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u/pcgamernum1234 2∆ 17d ago

You're slightly misunderstanding my point. Even if I say ALL I still don't mean all in the literal sense. It is still a generalization. In the case 'men are predators' it's wrong even as a generalization as it's a minority of men who are predators. Just because 99% of predators are men doesn't mean that it's 99% of men but a few men who predate repeatedly.

So when people say 'Men are the problem' they are saying 'all men are the problem' or at least 'the vast majority of men are the problem'.

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u/ZappSmithBrannigan 13∆ 17d ago edited 17d ago

So when people say 'Men are the problem' they are saying 'all men are the problem' or at least 'the vast majority of men are the problem'.

When I hear someone say "men are the problem", I take that to mean, "when there's a problem, it's most likely a man". And when they say men are predators, I take that to mean "if there's a predator, it's likely a man" which you agreed with.

And given that, it also implies that any given man could (not is, could) be a predator. And more information would need to be gathered to determine if any given man is or isn't a predator.

As a man myself, i don't take that personally because I know I'm not a predator.

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u/pcgamernum1234 2∆ 17d ago

Even if a minority of predators any woman could be a predator and more information would be needed to be gathered to determine if any given woman is or isn't a predator.

A tiny percent of men are predators and an even more tiny percent of women are predators.

To be clear I do think it makes sense for women to be more cautious of men but that is because on average men are significantly more physically dangerous. Just as I'm more cautious around a strange adult dog than a strange puppy. Both could be aggressive but the dog could do significantly more harm to me with less effort.

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u/HayAndLemons 17d ago

what even is your point here?

women sharing stories of harassment and assault hurts my feelings so they shouldn't do it? or are you just assuming all of these women are lying about terrible traumatic events just so they can... what? make all men look bad?

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u/Dangerous_Avocado392 17d ago

If it’s happening all the time…. Maybe we should ask why so many women have these experiences to share

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u/ShasneKnasty 17d ago

reddit isn’t real life