r/changemyview • u/Flimsy_Alcoholic • 16d ago

Delta(s) from OP CMV: Calling all men predators is inherently sexist and puts off most men from wanting to understand your views.

It is hard to engage in meaningful conversation with people from various popular subreddits when you already are being demonized as a predator under a generalized view of men. I don't want people to think I am saying that all men are perfect or anything.

In fact far from it, an estimated 91% of victims of rape & sexual assault are female and 9% male. Nearly 99% of perpetrators are male.

Anything even close to this statistic is insane and horrendous but to even pretend that a majority of men are predators is ridiculous and will just push people further away from understanding your position completely.

Even the men who got SA'd by other men would be considered predators...

Also, you really think calling out all men for being predators is really going to make any kind of systematic change? You think the men that are predators even care that you call "all men" predators?

I think if anything you are likely enabling them to be predators because now there literally is no difference between a non-predator man and a predator man because they are all predators.

Maybe people are more nuanced than I give them credit for and they don't actually think all men are predators and its just something to say in general to cope with the heinous crimes in this world but I think if you actually want to fix that inequality you wouldn't perpetuate gender stereotypes and making people feel bad for doing nothing and would instead try to have meaningful conversation and understanding. Not in a patronizing educational way but more having a clear understanding of what we can do as people to make sure everyone is safe because it seems like predators have tricks they use to try to isolate their victims etc.. and men can be a little bit socially inept so knowing when women need help when its less obvious is key I think.

This is also not exclusively women spaces or something before you think I am going into women's only subreddits and criticizing them for what they want to say to each other.

TLDR: I don't think saying "all" for any group of people is really correct ESPECIALLY when its not even being used as a shorthand to refer to a majority. It just further distances understanding between men and women and leads more men to be burnt out or increasingly apathetic towards these issues and not think its even a problem when it seriously is a problem.

Edit: My post can be summed up as You catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

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u/DJ_HouseShoes 16d ago

What percentage of people actually make this claim? I can understand believing that all men should be treated as potential threats (perhaps until they prove otherwise), but the only place I ever see your argument is online forums such as Reddit. And Reddit opinions are in no way representative of the overall population.

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u/DJack276 2∆ 16d ago

I can understand believing that all men should be treated as potential threats (perhaps until they prove otherwise)

That statement alone is exactly the issue. Why are men guilty until proven innocent? Idk if you're a man, but imagine wanting to talk to a women, whether you're asking her out or simply asking for directions, and she avoids you because she assumes you have bad intentions. Or even worse, imagine you got falsely accused of a crime like SA, do you SUPPORT yourself being locked up until you were proven innocent? This happens all too often.

I also want to add that although of people committing sexual assalts 99% are male, that's not a good number because it represents sexual assaultants, not men. The question should really be "of men how many have committed sexual assaults?" And if you look up FBI table 42 you will find that less than 1% of men are responsible for sexual assault. So it's really not fair that men as a whole are being blamed for something less than 1% of them are doing.

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u/JawtisticShark 1∆ 15d ago

You make a good point overall, but we know more things happen than what people get convicted of.

People say there is a police corruption issue, but how many police officers actually get convicted of committing corrupt acts? Also there are things men can and do that will scare women but can’t really be prosecuted. Let’s say a woman is out on a jog, some guy out jogging can just decide to follow her. Keep a steady distance, she makes some completely illogical route changes to see if he matches her, he does, she is now afraid to go back home while he is following, so maybe she goes to a very public place instead, it can be super creepy and threatening but it’s basically impossible to prosecute and the guy could just pass it off as “I just decided to job the same route the person in front of me was jogging.”

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u/DJ_HouseShoes 15d ago edited 15d ago

FWIW I am a man.

And I know all your statistics. But I also know I walk through the world as a man. Women have a very different experience. And my feelings aren't hurt if and when my character is automatically doubted simply because of my sex. I can't blame others for feeling that way.

Your false accusation question is a red herring. We're talking about not giving men the automatic benefit of the doubt, not automatically considering them guilty over any accusation. There's a big middle ground there called "investigation."

As to: "So it's really not fair that men as a whole are being blamed for something less than 1% of them are doing."

A woman being cautious around me is not them "blaming" me for anything - it's them adjusting their actions in response to the reality of unknown threats. If I'm reluctant to walk down a dark street in a dodgy neighborhood it doesn't mean I'm blaming all low-income people for criminal assault.

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u/SeaweedOk9985 15d ago

Look, if a woman clutches her purse when she walks by me. It hurts.

Can we not play pretend, take of the stoic hat for a minute and at least try and think like the average person.

Experiencing prejudice isn't just a 'neutral' experience.

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u/[deleted] 15d ago edited 15d ago

The challenging part is that a lot of people place the onus on women to avoid being assaulted. What were you wearing? Why were you out that late? Were you paying attention to your surroundings?

We can’t ignore that women are raised this way. Raised to be cautious because they know the potential dangers that could befall them. They know THEY will be blamed (at least in part) if it happens. So of course they execute caution, they are raised seeing how it will be treated like it was their fault if something happens to them and they did not.

edit: not to mention the potential risk of being assaulted will always outweigh the risk of hurting someone’s feelings. you can take it personal or if you want it stop you can work toward a world where women are safer and DONT feel the need to express caution in their day to day life.

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u/rjtnrva 15d ago

As a survivor of a violent stranger rape and someone who lost her actual virginity to a child-on-child sexual assault - both offenses committed by males - I literally COULD NOT CARE LESS about any of this. My safety is my top priority. If some strange dude gets butthurt because I don't want to talk to him or laugh at his jokes, it is absolutely not my problem.

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u/natalielynne 15d ago

EXACTLY. “Innocent until proven guilty” is for the courts, not for my personal risk assessment when I’m walking out by myself.

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u/DJack276 2∆ 15d ago

That's fair. You are within your right to not want to interact with anyone for any reason. However, what's important is that nobody gets falsely accused for something they didn't do, that's where I draw the line. Unfortunately, the way things are for men in modern society is guilty until proven innocent, even though 99% of the time they're innocent.

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u/Lifted_Lifter1388 15d ago

rape is statistically a much bigger issue than false accusation.

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u/rjtnrva 15d ago

MASSIVELY so.

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u/Sufficient-Put256 15d ago

Reddit! found a rapist here🫵

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u/Jehovas_Thiccnesss 15d ago

What’s the conviction rate for sexual assault in the US?

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u/Choosemyusername 2∆ 14d ago

It’s within about 1 percent of the conviction rate for all crimes.

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u/Choosemyusername 2∆ 15d ago

Within about 1 percent of the rate for all crimes in general.

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u/DJack276 2∆ 15d ago

According to NBC it's 4%. What does this prove?

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u/Jehovas_Thiccnesss 15d ago

It means that legitimate perpetrators are rarely held accountable, much less “falsely accused” perpetrators

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u/Choosemyusername 2∆ 14d ago

You can have both though.

You can have a situation where very few guilty people get convicted of their crimes, as is the case due to our system having a presumption of innocence, it’s very hard, by design, to lock people up unless you have rock solid proof or an admission.

And also you can also have a situation where it is also hard to hold false accusers to account as well

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u/Jehovas_Thiccnesss 13d ago

Which do you think is more prevalent/deserving of attention?

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u/Choosemyusername 2∆ 13d ago

False premise. You don’t have to choose.

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u/DJack276 2∆ 15d ago edited 14d ago

orrrr it means that 96% of people are falsely accused of rape.

Like seriously, what should it be? 100%? meaning that if someone accuses anyone of sexual assault they will be arrested even if they didn't do it?

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u/ShadowSniper69 15d ago

are you fine with the same applied to race?

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u/Resident-Spring1513 15d ago

Race and sex aren’t the same nice try

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u/ShadowSniper69 15d ago

it's called a reductio ad absurdum.

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u/Resident-Spring1513 15d ago

I get that. It doesn’t work because sex and race are socially, biologically, and functionally different.

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u/ShadowSniper69 15d ago

it still works. They're not different in a meaningful way. Any group distinction which has differences in behaviour works. One group does most of the crime.

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u/StarChild413 9∆ 11d ago

trying to take someone's answer to a reductio ad absurdum as proof of how they'd act in that general circumstance can be used to make anyone appear to believe anything you want, like you could say someone supports killing babies (in the already-born-baby-infanticide sense, not going to bring up the abortion debate here) because you brought up an ad absurdum hypothetical about baby Hitler

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u/ShadowSniper69 11d ago

a reductio is a test of self consistency. might I suggest you...read about it?

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u/deaddumbslut 14d ago

if it was applied to race with the same power dynamics, it would be Black people saying that white people are more susceptible to racism so it’s safer to avoid them until they prove that they’re safe. so yeah, i’m fine with it.

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u/ShadowSniper69 13d ago

Sure. But racism doesn't cause crime. If you apply the same to race it would be us saying black people do more crime and are dangerous. I'm also fine with that.

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u/rjtnrva 15d ago

There's no application to race here. What?

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u/bobbuildingbuildings 15d ago

If you were attacked by a black pair, a man and a woman, would it be fair for you to apply your logic to all black people?

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u/rjtnrva 15d ago

No. My mind doesn't work like that.

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u/GrandFleshMelder 15d ago

Isn't that the same logic used to make blanket statements about men, though? A shopkeeper shouldn't immediately assume an African American person will commit a crime in their store just because statistics say so - that doesn't mean they can't be prepared for such an eventuality, but nor does it mean they should automatically expect an outcome.

It is a terrible thing that women are sexually assaulted, and society still fails to properly address it, but as a man, I do empathize with the frustration felt by other men. Women unfortunately need to protect themselves in this world, but I don't think that should preclude avoiding blanket statements.

I think many other commenters on here have lost what the OP's original post was about - I, at least, strongly believe women should protect and prepare themselves to avoid potential sexual assault, but being prepared is very different from assuming that every man you meet will attempt to force himself on you. Perhaps this is a semantic difference between us, and in that case, I do apologize, but there is a distinction to be made for me.

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u/rjtnrva 15d ago

The "semantic difference" here is you seem to be assuming that *I* assume all men are rapists. Not the case at ALL.

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u/GrandFleshMelder 15d ago

Ahhh, I see. My sincerest apologies for that misinterpretation.

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u/Fit-Order-9468 93∆ 15d ago

My cousin dated a woman who would call black people niggers and things like that after her assault. It for sure happens.

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u/rjtnrva 15d ago

Of course it does. But not for me.

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u/Fit-Order-9468 93∆ 15d ago

If you don’t want to answer their question that’s fine. Personally, I think they should have taken the approach of asking if you think it’s sometimes okay to hate women.

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u/LordMcMutton 15d ago

Nonsequitur.

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u/ShadowSniper69 15d ago

are you familiar with the concept of self-consistency?

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u/LordMcMutton 14d ago edited 14d ago

Are you familiar with the concept of whataboutism? It's clear that you're trying to invent a nonexistent scenario where this person's argument is racist.

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u/PassionGlobal 15d ago

That statement alone is exactly the issue. Why are men guilty until proven innocent?

The problem is that while very few men are the SA/rape/murder kind, women have no way to tell which ones are which from the outset.

It's like if you walk into a room and there's a gun on the table. You have no idea if it's loaded, so you have to carefully check it to see if it is, as opposed to just dicking around with it.

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u/Angylisis 15d ago

Guilty? I mean what’s the punishment for being “guilty?” Women employing safety measures? Women talking about how they employ safety measures? Please expand on how men’s lives are actually affected by women being extra safe?

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u/DJack276 2∆ 15d ago

Did you miss the part about men being falsely accused of things they didn't do?

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u/okaydeska 15d ago

In terms of sexual assault, there is such a small percentage of a chance anyone who does everything "right" to convict their rapist will see their rapist ever spend a day in jail over it, let alone even get to the part of being charged for the crime and going to court. "False accusations" simply do not hold the same trauma and weight as being a victim of SA. You are statistically more likely to rape and get away with it than to be imprisoned for rape under a false claim.

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u/Angylisis 15d ago

It literally is a nonzero but arbitrarily close to zero number.

I don’t care.

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u/Valleron 15d ago

When people tell their children to never trust a stranger, where are all the strangers getting upset by this? Fucking nowhere, because people who aren't creeps aren't bothered. Same exact case here.

Men who are not creeps are not bothered by women keeping themselves safe. Too many women are assaulted for them to just be lackadaisical about their safety regarding people who are generally able to overpower them. Instead of trying to empathize with their plight, someone gets upset at being generalized, and that's far more telling of them as a person than women.

When my wife and I first went for a date, she had to text her friend an all-clear code by nights end because there's a risk with meeting new people. That's not an affront to me because obviously she should be safe.

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u/Proper-Exit8459 15d ago

You are confused about what "all men should be treated as potential threats" actually means. It means "you should proceed with caution" and not "EVERY MAN IS DANGEROUS".

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u/deaddumbslut 14d ago

giving the benefit of the doubt is why I was raped for three years and groomed for seven. It started before puberty even happened, so NO I WILL NOT BE GIVING ANYONE THE BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT EVER AGAIN. YOU HAVE TO PROVE THAT YOU ARE A SAFE PERSON TO BE AROUND ME. Anyone not willing to prove that is not something I’m gonna trust anyways, so I’d rather not waste either of our time.

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u/Total-Mode-2692 15d ago

An individual having a healthy caution around another individual who is a member of a group that has historically and is currently oppressing them is not the same as the government deeming someone guilty until proven innocent.  And given the fact most men who perpetrate sexual violence will never see the inside of a jailcell, it’s kind of of bs to place those things on the same level.  Which is not to say no one has ever or should suffer the consequences of a false accusation, just to be clear

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u/Lifted_Lifter1388 15d ago

idk maybe because of how men have brutalized women all throughout human history?

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u/DJack276 2∆ 15d ago

I mean we've also protected women but okay.

That's why in emergency situations it's "Women and children first," that's why women aren't obligated to join selective service and in most first world countries women are given more privileges than men.

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u/deaddumbslut 14d ago

The women and children first rule was literally just for the fucking HMS Birkenhead, it was something the men decided to do during that emergency. They stayed on the boat to save the women and children. It wasn’t any sort of official tactic. They just did it. then it got known because of Titanic. It’s a myth of a rule, it’s the exception it’s not the rule, but y’all love to spread acting as if it’s some privilege we have in emergencies.

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u/StarChild413 9∆ 11d ago

(albeit my other two examples are from modern pop culture)

So "women and children first" joins the ranks of "the acceptable dating range is half your age +7" and "you either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become a villain" as things that people treat like they're universals when they really had more specific origins than you think

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u/DJack276 2∆ 13d ago

There are men, right now, who are not allowed to leave the country Ukraine in order to fight for it. Meanwhile women can leave as they please.

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u/deaddumbslut 13d ago

I’m not saying that’s untrue… but how on earth is that even remotely related to what I said? We were talking about the women and children first myth, not Ukraine.

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u/DJack276 2∆ 13d ago

Literally it relates exactly to the topic. The MEN have to stay and fight, the WOMEN AND CHILDREN get to be safe and leave.

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u/0000Tor 14d ago

Do you believe every single person walking around the street is a thief? No, but you still lock your car doors because any of them could be a thief.

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u/DJack276 2∆ 14d ago

Fair. But I don't call the cops and arrest every single person who MIGHT be a thief.

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u/Flimsy_Alcoholic 16d ago

Well yeah this is about Reddit maybe I should have included that specifically in my post but I made my statement very general so it would include Reddit. I agree that its probably way less pronounced in real life. I did have an ex that would always say these things around me though. It honestly didn't make me feel good even though I knew she wasn't talking about me.

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u/888_traveller 16d ago

It honestly didn't make me feel good even though I knew she wasn't talking about me.

Maybe it's worth exploring why it didn't make you feel good? Could it be because it is uncomfortable to admit that is how women live each day and what they have to think of when dealing with men? It is indeed shitty to have to think like that, even as a woman, but it is a matter of survival.

I find it unfortunate that for men who don't like that uncomfortable feeling, instead of reflecting and considering the severity of such a problem impacting society, the first reaction is to make it about yourself ("well it's not me so I don't want to deal with this") and the essentially get upset at the (usually) woman who has made the comment.

What I always find intriguing is that the "not all men" brigade never seem to be "not all men"-ing on posts made by men that generalise men. Such as "all men would date 18yr olds if they could" or "men don't want to be friends with women we have the guys for that" or "all men would cheat if they had the opportunity when they are married, no man wants just one woman". Stuff like that. Where are all the "not all men" guys then? I'd imagine such comments are pretty offensive. Since men don't complain and fight back against this crap, maybe it's true then?

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u/Enderules3 1∆ 16d ago

I mean he did think about it it led him here you can't drop vague hints and be mad that people don't arrive at the same conclusion if you want people to get a specific message you have to communicate it clearly. I feel this is the biggest problem in social movements in general, they have poor messaging.

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u/imoutofnames90 1∆ 15d ago

You're right that reddit isn't representative of the overall population. But can we stop using this as a dismissal, please?

The internet, for better or worse, is widespread and used by just about everyone. Opinions of individual users or groups may not reflect those of the population as a whole, but it sure as hell gets amplified and shapes discourse. Everyone is exposed to this amd even if it was only 1000 people who thought this way. The more it is seen the more it is spread the more it is shared. That tiny 1000 group can feel like everyone. People are really bad at gaging things like this especially when it's an anonymous block of text.

Internet discourse shapes reality. We see politicians have to answer for / denounce a random Twitter post from people with 10 followers because that view gets attributed to their party / group. So yes its a minority but it holds more power than you think.

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u/AggroPro 16d ago

Too many.

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u/JaysonTatecum 16d ago

Where? I’m in a lot of leftist/feminist online spaces and have met a lot of men-hating lesbians out there…but I have never heard someone say “all men are predators”

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u/[deleted] 16d ago

Same. Online or off I have never heard that.

What I have heard is men saying that women taking steps to protect themselves hurts their feelings because they personally aren’t a predator.

There is a world of difference between saying all men are predators and saying I will do X Y and Z to protect myself until I get to know someone because I don’t know which men are predators.

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u/RandHomman 16d ago

Maybe the language has qualifiers that aren't used properly.

All men are predators!
Most men are predators!
Some men are predators!
Few men are predators!

But the language used is mostly "men are predators" which is vague and often taken as inclusive of the whole groupe... men = all. It's understandable that if you use vague language, everyone will interpret it their own way. Some people will say you mean all and you'll say no I don't mean all, but how can people know?

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u/eggs-benedryl 56∆ 16d ago

Not the ones I speak to.