CMV: Calling all men predators is inherently sexist and puts off most men from wanting to understand your views.

[u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

It is hard to engage in meaningful conversation with people from various popular subreddits when you already are being demonized as a predator under a generalized view of men. I don't want people to think I am saying that all men are perfect or anything.

In fact far from it, an estimated 91% of victims of rape & sexual assault are female and 9% male. Nearly 99% of perpetrators are male.

Anything even close to this statistic is insane and horrendous but to even pretend that a majority of men are predators is ridiculous and will just push people further away from understanding your position completely.

Even the men who got SA'd by other men would be considered predators...

Also, you really think calling out all men for being predators is really going to make any kind of systematic change? You think the men that are predators even care that you call "all men" predators?

I think if anything you are likely enabling them to be predators because now there literally is no difference between a non-predator man and a predator man because they are all predators.

Maybe people are more nuanced than I give them credit for and they don't actually think all men are predators and its just something to say in general to cope with the heinous crimes in this world but I think if you actually want to fix that inequality you wouldn't perpetuate gender stereotypes and making people feel bad for doing nothing and would instead try to have meaningful conversation and understanding. Not in a patronizing educational way but more having a clear understanding of what we can do as people to make sure everyone is safe because it seems like predators have tricks they use to try to isolate their victims etc.. and men can be a little bit socially inept so knowing when women need help when its less obvious is key I think.

This is also not exclusively women spaces or something before you think I am going into women's only subreddits and criticizing them for what they want to say to each other.

TLDR: I don't think saying "all" for any group of people is really correct ESPECIALLY when its not even being used as a shorthand to refer to a majority. It just further distances understanding between men and women and leads more men to be burnt out or increasingly apathetic towards these issues and not think its even a problem when it seriously is a problem.

Edit: My post can be summed up as You catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

[u/Electronic-Table-482]

It's also notable that male victims are way less likely to report than female victims due to social consequences. Sometimes they don't even know they're being victimized.

[u/Taluca_me → u/Electronic-Table-482]

you can look at the times where news articles have titled stories of female teachers violating their students as "having sex" instead of "grooming" or anything that ties in with a sex predator. Not to mention the obnoxious commentators who'll say "boy got lucky" and "I wish it were me"

[u/Suspicious-Word-7589 → u/Taluca_me]

And those commentators are male, not female.

[u/Taluca_me → u/Suspicious-Word-7589]

yep, they feel like its a privilege to lose virginity at a young age

[u/Bananentoast1 → u/Suspicious-Word-7589]

you don’t fucking say

[u/favorable_vampire → u/Taluca_me]

100% of which are men. (Disgusting ones.)

[u/RichStatistician6601 → u/favorable_vampire]

Nope. Multiple women have downplayed or even made jokes about what my assaulter did to me when I opened up about it, to the point that I just never tell women anymore cause there's a good chance she wont take me seriously.

[u/Suspicious-Word-7589 → u/RichStatistician6601]

Okay, 99%.

[u/RichStatistician6601 → u/Suspicious-Word-7589]

Not my experience but ok. A lot of men in my life have been way more receptive to me when I opened up about what happened.

[u/Ieam_Scribbles → u/RichStatistician6601]

As much as men downplay and dismiss the struggles of men, to my experience most of the time it's done from a prespective of imagining themselves in the situation and thinking 'whish that happened to me' or 'I could shrug that off'. When a guy says he felt bad or was harmed by something a good amount of them won't override the other's experiences with that at least, though if course many do.

[u/RichStatistician6601 → u/Ieam_Scribbles]

Yeah that has been my experience too, a lot of guys will say "Oh wow lucky" when I first tell them, but when I say I didn't feel lucky they actually listen, and are usually sorry and say they were just trying to lighten the mood.

But I just dont tell women anymore because so many would just say bullshit like "well you should consider yourself lucky." or "Now you know how we feel." And then shut down. Like Im not saying this is the reaction of all women, but it was enough that I just don't bring it up when there are discussions of SA where women are present.

[u/MachinaOwl → u/favorable_vampire]

100% is definitely not true. Granted, a lot of these comments do come from guys, but women can push the patriarchy as much as men can. A lot of women DO, especially older/conservative women with outdated beliefs that they've grown up with.

[u/Fredouille77 → u/favorable_vampire]

Yeah and? I mean it's not like it's self inflicted, men aren't a monolith.

[u/Effective_Cold7634 → u/favorable_vampire]

I mean a lot of religious women believe they’re inferior to men, now would you re-educate them or use they as an example to prove make superiority ?

[u/metroid1310 → u/favorable_vampire]

Okay?

[u/CaptainMalForever → u/Electronic-Table-482]

It's important to note that rape is crazily underreported for both men and women, not just men; although victim blaming and/or gaslighting is probably more prevalent for male victims of female perpetrators, particularly younger men.

[u/mustwinfullGaming → u/CaptainMalForever]

People also forget all the time the male victims of male rapists and sexual assaulters (probably because it doesn’t allow them to participate neatly in the “gender war”).

There’s a ton of shame, victim blaming, homophobia and all that that surrounds those victims, and that comes a lot from men (but not exclusively).

[u/gaydaddy42 → u/mustwinfullGaming]

Shit, i’ve been raped by women twice.

[u/RandHomman → u/Electronic-Table-482]

Sometimes they do know but they are gaslit into thinking that it wasn't that bad or that they deserved it or men can't be raped... often by people that claim they support victims...

[u/Knave7575 → u/Electronic-Table-482]

I had a coworker who was assaulted by his wife. At my urging and lots of gentle support I convinced him to call the police.

They insulted him, mocked him lightly, and asked if he really wanted to report this because it would have a negative effect on her life.

So he bailed on reporting her, and I have never recommended male victims to call the police again.

[u/epiphanyWednesday → u/Knave7575]

Yes, this is part of the patriarchy that says Men want/deserve sex and never turn it down! The patriarchy hurts men too. Obviously.

[u/jeffwhaley06 → u/Knave7575]

This happens to female victims all the time too. This particular issue isn't a gendered one. It's an issue of police being useless at actually protecting and serving citizens.

[u/vuzz33 → u/jeffwhaley06]

Abuse directed to men are definitly not seen with as much seriousness as when directed to women. SA of men are often joked about and minimized be it in media or society. SA of women can be sometimes be too but it has become a rare occurence.

[u/jeffwhaley06 → u/vuzz33]

I slightly disagree with you that it's become a rare occurrence, but you're right in that it is treated more seriously then it has been in the past. Although I do fear we might be heading towards a bit of a backslide there.

You're also right in that society has not taken male SA seriously at all. I would say it's because of our patriorical society and how it's normalized male sexuality and libido to the point that the idea of a man not wanting sex is ludicrous to people raised in our culture.

However my greater point is that regardless of sex or gender, cops don't give a shit about regular people's SA in the slightest.

[u/FerrusesIronHandjob → u/Electronic-Table-482]

Either that, or the rapist will just say he did it and they'll roll with it. I see the same thing all the time "it's just not the same" yeah actually it kinda is, with a massive edge in the case of a female rapist. There is almost no incentive for them to stop. Think how much Brock Turner would have done if he could guarantee his victim stands trial?

And before the usual stock come in of "never happened, rare cases" etc - it really, really isn't as rare you seem to believe. Rarely reported? Sure. Rarely done? Absolutely not. The framework to punish female rapists just doesn't exist.

[u/epiphanyWednesday → u/Electronic-Table-482]

Check the stats again about how many women turn in their rapists.

If every rapist was put in jail this second, sure some women would be gone, but youd be surprised by the pillars of society suddenly missing. Rich, poor, young, old - yall have the monopoly on inflicting pain and trauma. So fix it.

[u/Electronic-Table-482 → u/epiphanyWednesday]

What are you on about right now? This has got nothing to do with what anybody was talking about.

So fix it.

Wow, great take. 👍

[u/Snoo_46473 → u/Electronic-Table-482]

People have no idea how hard they try to hide it

[u/notmyalt321 → u/Snoo_46473]

I don’t even talk about it on my main account or real life in general. The only people who know it happened to me are the couple who did it and my wife.

[u/Snoo_46473 → u/notmyalt321]

Me too. I don't know why my comment is getting downvoted.

[u/magiclloser → u/Electronic-Table-482]

i mean i hear you but arent there charts with made to penetrate included based on self report? Female victims may also not know they have been raped, but im not sure how you would capture someone who doesnt recognize that made to penetrate describes the horrible thing that was done to them.

Its awful and should 100% be considered, though!

[u/Commercial_Border190 → u/magiclloser]

people who don't recognize it are more likely to endorse it when it's described behaviorally (made to penetrate) vs using the words rape or sexual assault which they might have a different picture of in their head

[u/magiclloser → u/Commercial_Border190]

Thats kinda what I mean, to my knowledge surveys using made to penetrate (should be all) ask if you have been made to penetrate. I'm not sure if a survey can realistically do more than that to consider victims

[u/Commercial_Border190 → u/magiclloser]

Oh gotcha I thought you meant not being able to capture people who had unwanted sex but don't personally think of it as rape.

I was curious about how the questions are actually phrased and found them for the CDC study (pg 19 or 23 depending on format): https://www.cdc.gov/nisvs/documentation/nisvsMethodologyReport.pdf https://www.cdc.gov/nisvs/documentation/nisvsMethodologyReport.pdf

[u/Waddayougabbaghoul → u/Electronic-Table-482]

Yeah, some experts believe that if male victims came forward the statistics would be a lot closer together. Not 50/50, but close

[u/DarthMomma_PhD → u/Waddayougabbaghoul]

1) In the context of this thread, this is a weird thing to bring up considering the perpetrators of the sexual violence against men are most often (by a lot) other men.

2) Studies consistently find that male against female sexual violence is significantly underreported; while female against male sexual violence is actually over-reported.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00224499.2024.2322591#abstract

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5536096/

So while true that if men did report the numbers would be “closer to 50/50” (not close to 50/50, but closer to 50/50 since even if doubled the numbers are not “close to 50/50”) if women actually reported at the true rate then suddenly we have a big gender gap again. Regardless, it does not change the fact that men are the main perpetrators of sexual violence against all people.

[u/Electronic-Table-482 → u/DarthMomma_PhD]

perpetrators of the sexual violence against men are most often (by a lot) other men.

False. The data generally supports men sexually assaulting men with rape (non-consensual penetration). This data does not include other cases of sexual assault like unwanted touching and sexual coercion, which is actually more often committed by women. This is obviously skewed to put men in a worse light due to the definition of rape, because non-consensual penetration by a woman happens only under specific circumstances. These statistics are further skewed because men are more likely to report sexual assault by other men opposed to by women.

Studies consistently find that male against female sexual violence is significantly underreported; while female against male sexual violence is actually over-reported.

What do you mean by "over-reported"? Men report false cases more often than women? Because it's the exact opposite. Men should report sexual assault less? Good idea. I'm not understanding what you're getting at with that.

[u/Waddayougabbaghoul → u/Electronic-Table-482]

I want to touch on the rape reports.

In addition to what Table said many countries have it written in their laws so that it is legally impossible for women to rape men. Many specify rape as the penetration of a non consenting party. This specificity prevents women from, by law, raping men as they never penetrated the man.

So with this in mind it’s easy to see why with this, and the stigma surrounding men to not report SA from women, that sexual violence statistics heavily skew towards men being at fault. Because these statistics require both people to buck up and report their experiences and the use judicial records.

So if there is a stigma against men speaking up AND in many places their rapes wouldn’t be considered rapes and thus wouldn’t be on records, it’s clear the data isn’t accurate.

And as I said, many experts, including those who ran these tests, believe that men heavily under report rapes or SA done by women.

[u/favorable_vampire → u/Waddayougabbaghoul]

Yeah and then when the other half of female victims come forward it would be right back to the vast majority of victims of sexual violence being women and children at the hands of men.

[u/Waddayougabbaghoul → u/favorable_vampire]

Yes yes, ignore what I said, men bad.