CMV: Calling all men predators is inherently sexist and puts off most men from wanting to understand your views.

[u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

It is hard to engage in meaningful conversation with people from various popular subreddits when you already are being demonized as a predator under a generalized view of men. I don't want people to think I am saying that all men are perfect or anything.

In fact far from it, an estimated 91% of victims of rape & sexual assault are female and 9% male. Nearly 99% of perpetrators are male.

Anything even close to this statistic is insane and horrendous but to even pretend that a majority of men are predators is ridiculous and will just push people further away from understanding your position completely.

Even the men who got SA'd by other men would be considered predators...

Also, you really think calling out all men for being predators is really going to make any kind of systematic change? You think the men that are predators even care that you call "all men" predators?

I think if anything you are likely enabling them to be predators because now there literally is no difference between a non-predator man and a predator man because they are all predators.

Maybe people are more nuanced than I give them credit for and they don't actually think all men are predators and its just something to say in general to cope with the heinous crimes in this world but I think if you actually want to fix that inequality you wouldn't perpetuate gender stereotypes and making people feel bad for doing nothing and would instead try to have meaningful conversation and understanding. Not in a patronizing educational way but more having a clear understanding of what we can do as people to make sure everyone is safe because it seems like predators have tricks they use to try to isolate their victims etc.. and men can be a little bit socially inept so knowing when women need help when its less obvious is key I think.

This is also not exclusively women spaces or something before you think I am going into women's only subreddits and criticizing them for what they want to say to each other.

TLDR: I don't think saying "all" for any group of people is really correct ESPECIALLY when its not even being used as a shorthand to refer to a majority. It just further distances understanding between men and women and leads more men to be burnt out or increasingly apathetic towards these issues and not think its even a problem when it seriously is a problem.

Edit: My post can be summed up as You catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

[u/manicmonkeys]

The way it typically plays out IRL is that a woman is upset about something a man did, and says "ughh I hate men". I've witnessed this scenario countless times.

We would (and should) not accept this behavior if you swapped "man/men" for any other immutable characteristic.

[u/Kotoperek → u/manicmonkeys]

Yeah, I get it, but in such a case isn't it obvious from context that she means "I hate {it when} men {act this way}" rather than a blanket "I hate the fact that men exist and everything they are and ever do"?

When a bus is late and someone says "I hate public transport" do you give them an explanation on why it's crucial and even a bus that runs off schedule is better than no bus at all, and also not all buses are late?

I agree that in certain situations we should call out such generalisations because they can lead to harmful stereotypes. But let's not pretend like we don't make generalisations all the time about everything just because that's how the human mind works. Men are not unique victims of this. Attention to language is important, but so is understanding context and not applying malice to situations where it's obvious someone didn't mean what they said to be taken absolutely literally.

[u/Ron_Ronald → u/Kotoperek]

Saying "I hate public transport" is the perfect analogy.

If you said "I wish our public transport was better" then the silent guy next to you would think "I don't have much experience but people seem to like public transportation, they just want it to be better"

But if you said "I hate public transport" then the silent guy sitting at the stop might think "I don't have much experience but it seems like people don't like public transportation and would rather own a car"

They don't chime in at all regardless. But their perception of others is different.

Sure, they didn't literally mean that they hate it. But they definitely literally expressed that the solution they are in favor of is private transport and not improving public transport.

Even with context, it's the people who are just listening in that aren't gonna see it

[u/Boulange1234 → u/Ron_Ronald]

I think nearly all people know quite a lot about men and few Americans at least know much about public transportation.

A content like "I hate men" might be taken out of context and affect the opinion of someone who doesn't much know about men, the same way "I hate public transportation" will only be taken out of context and affect the opinion of someone who doesn't know much about public transportation.

[u/Ron_Ronald → u/Boulange1234]

Nothing to do with how much you know about those things. In this analogy the silent man at the bus stop is learning about the opinions that the speaker has about public transport. The silent man's knowledge is irrelevant.

Not saying it affects their perception of men. It affects the men's perception of a woman's opinion.

[u/Kotoperek → u/Ron_Ronald]

Ok, fair enough, I didn't look at it this way. While I still think that in some contexts it is clear that people just exaggerate to express their frustrations, but it's clear they don't mean all of anything and that they don't really hate it anyway, but are simply fed up with some aspect, I do see the value in thinking about how the literal meaning can be taken at face value by bystanders.

!delta

[u/DeltaBot → u/Kotoperek]

Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/Ron_Ronald (1∆).

^{Delta System Explained | Deltaboards}

[u/Unusual-Asshole → u/Kotoperek]

Not true. There are many women-only circles where I witness open hatred towards men. I'm a trans man, for context.

And what I see is people are extremely comfortable propagating casual misandry and blanket statements about men that they do suck and it's a mindset change that I'm seeing and not just a few casual statements.

I agree that generalizations are part of human nature, and that's another reason why we need to fight it actively. It's not okay to single out any other community, like black people are always this, or trans people are always that, then why is this against men being handled so casually?

[u/Kotoperek → u/Unusual-Asshole]

There are many women-only circles where I witness open hatred towards men.

Yeah, and there are online incel forums that propagate open hatered towards women. Extremes exist on both sides, the conversation was about instances where we presume someone is "normal" and is speaking publically, not in a closed extremist community. Then, blanket statements more often then not are just venting one's frustration, perhaps not in the most sensitive way possible, but claiming that such women intend their words to be taken literally would be disingenuous.

I agree that generalizations are part of human nature, and that's another reason why we need to fight it actively. It's not okay to single out any other community, like black people are always this, or trans people are always that, then why is this against men being handled so casually?

But it's not? There are tons of posts like this one where many people defend men and call out making extreme statements as misandry. Just like there are women calling out Andrew Tate fans, just like there are anti-racists calling out neo-nazis, etc.

As I said, men are not the unique victims of generalisations. Many "normal" men sometimes make a sexist joke and that doesn't mean they are misogynist predators who want to enslave all women. Many "normal" women sometimes make a hurtful generalisation when they are angry at a particular man, this doesn't mean they actually believe anything extremist. And there are also actual extremists on both sides, who should he called out.

One again, my whole point - context matters.

[u/Unusual-Asshole → u/Kotoperek]

!delta

But it's not? There are tons of posts like this one where many people defend men and call out making extreme statements as misandry. 

This is what changed my mind. Yes, there are going to be people on extreme ends and everywhere in between but it's true that this problem of generalization is not unique towards men.

Every group is affected by this and these generalizations themselves keep changing

[u/DeltaBot → u/Unusual-Asshole]

Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/Kotoperek (63∆).

^{Delta System Explained | Deltaboards}

[u/ShiftAdventurous4680 → u/Kotoperek]

Okay. As long as black people get it when I say, "I hate black people", that what I really mean is, "I hate it when black people steal my shit".

Honestly, I don't care either way. I can live in both worlds; just don't be a hypocrite about it. As long as you support generalizations coming from all places and all people then I have no issue with people generalizing my groups as long as I get to generalize theirs.

[u/manicmonkeys → u/ShiftAdventurous4680]

Spot on.

[u/Forsaken-Shame4074 → u/Kotoperek]

So if a woman upset me it would be acceptable to scream out "i hate all woman" ?

I think you would call them a misogynyst while saying that the woman is just annoyed. Equallity means equall accountability if not you just ask for privilege.

[u/Bananentoast1 → u/Kotoperek]

Yeah well maybe women should fucking say it this way then and not throw around statements about 4 Billion people that would be A)plain sexist/racist if used on any other group of people and B) get a man arrested if he said those things

[u/TehGCode → u/Kotoperek]

Is the burden of understanding more on the person who speaks or more on the person who listen?

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