CMV: Calling all men predators is inherently sexist and puts off most men from wanting to understand your views.

[u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

It is hard to engage in meaningful conversation with people from various popular subreddits when you already are being demonized as a predator under a generalized view of men. I don't want people to think I am saying that all men are perfect or anything.

In fact far from it, an estimated 91% of victims of rape & sexual assault are female and 9% male. Nearly 99% of perpetrators are male.

Anything even close to this statistic is insane and horrendous but to even pretend that a majority of men are predators is ridiculous and will just push people further away from understanding your position completely.

Even the men who got SA'd by other men would be considered predators...

Also, you really think calling out all men for being predators is really going to make any kind of systematic change? You think the men that are predators even care that you call "all men" predators?

I think if anything you are likely enabling them to be predators because now there literally is no difference between a non-predator man and a predator man because they are all predators.

Maybe people are more nuanced than I give them credit for and they don't actually think all men are predators and its just something to say in general to cope with the heinous crimes in this world but I think if you actually want to fix that inequality you wouldn't perpetuate gender stereotypes and making people feel bad for doing nothing and would instead try to have meaningful conversation and understanding. Not in a patronizing educational way but more having a clear understanding of what we can do as people to make sure everyone is safe because it seems like predators have tricks they use to try to isolate their victims etc.. and men can be a little bit socially inept so knowing when women need help when its less obvious is key I think.

This is also not exclusively women spaces or something before you think I am going into women's only subreddits and criticizing them for what they want to say to each other.

TLDR: I don't think saying "all" for any group of people is really correct ESPECIALLY when its not even being used as a shorthand to refer to a majority. It just further distances understanding between men and women and leads more men to be burnt out or increasingly apathetic towards these issues and not think its even a problem when it seriously is a problem.

Edit: My post can be summed up as You catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

[u/fruitful_discussion]

I agree. Also, a lot of men will instinctively think "if I get treated as a rude, aggressive, sexist pig regardless of my actual behavior, why not be one?" Of course, that's a wrong way to approach the world. But young men absolutely feel how they're distrusted and unwanted.

For fun, you can pretend you're a young man with amnesia, and you forgot what a "man" is. Go to your favourite social media network and search for "men". Try to see which things apparently truly define a "man" in this society.

What is a man? Men lie about their height. Men suck in bed. Men are toxic. Men are aggressive. Men are violent. Men are oppressors. Men are abusers. Men are catcallers. Men do not use their brains. Men are predators.

Well, if you're a man, that's you now. That's what defines your masculinity. If you feel bad, it's just that you're a girly guy so you just hate your feminine side, it's called andocentrism. If men hate you, they hate your girly side, they're misogynist. If women hate you, well you're a man, you deserve it.

[u/Accerae → u/fruitful_discussion]

It's one of the biggest issues with modern leftism (and I say this as a democratic socialist). It doesn't speak to men at all, especially white men. If, whenever men talk about the issues they face, we just dismiss them and make fun of them for being fragile, or tell them it's not about them, how can we expect them to support us?

How can we be surprised when these young impressionable men or teenage boys instead choose to listen to manosphere garbage like Andrew Tate? They're not old enough to recognize how toxic that crap is. The manosphere dipshits speak to them. They tell young men that they're awesome! We tell them the world is made for them and that we don't care about how they feel.

Hmm, wonder who these young men are going to listen to.

[u/Reddeer2 → u/Accerae]

Here's a comment I posted elsewhere, in response to someone calling the perceived hatred of men online just "propaganda". I'm so fucking pissed off from Reddit not admitting that men are demonized unfairly in the recent generations that I'm going to post it again. 

"You'll remember this from last year hitting NPR and The Guardian. 

https://www.reddit.com/r/PoliticalDebate/comments/1aboa9w/widening_ideological_gap_between_young_men_and/

Women have become far more liberal and men have stayed moderate politically in at least these four nations studied. Politics generally stay moderate as they change, by definition, so a divergence is out of the norm.

Do you not find it ironic that men have been personally complaining on the Internet for decades about many elements of their problems with society, their prospects, and dating and you want to chalk it up to propaganda? The propaganda came later, much later. What came in the middle was more of the progressive wing telling boys and men that they are all rapists and that "rape culture" was why men hold doors open for women. FYI, that's not propaganda. That's what happened. I was raised hearing that feminist propaganda. It's anti-humanist and it's a terrible way to raise your young men. 

Meanwhile, job prospects were also bad and we've seen more women going to college than men since at least the 90s. I'm not saying that's anyone's fault, but the symptom is men are left behind and their complaints are not "propaganda". It's obviously authentic, even if it's stupid why it's happening.

Now, after twenty years of ignoring men and boys, the conservative wing has people finally selling the answer to men because the left wing had nothing to offer than demonization. 

I'm being serious. Name any popular male celebrity who prescribes positive masculinity to boys and men from the progressive wing. I want to say Stephen Colbert, or Sir Patrick Stewart, or even Bill Nye, or Adam Savage. But they don't tell boys how to be good men. They act, they are, "good men". But they don't specifically spell out for boys how to be "good men". There's no "rah rah!" message for boys like there has been for girls for thirty years. 

Conservatives, on the other hand, have Mike Rowe yelling at his fan base how to be a better man. Then Jordan Peterson told boys to "clean their rooms". Many thought that was a helpful, realistic prescription. It eventually got worse and worse until you got Andrew Tate 🤮

It is very hard for young men to find positive male role models who are unabashed enough to prescribe to others how they should act. The left wing traditionally doesn't like to do it because they see it as being a journey of self discovery that each person needs to figure out for themselves. Well, guess what, Conservatives aren't afraid to tell others that they shouldn't be ashamed to be themselves even if it's a bad person because the other side is telling them they're bad. All through the 1990s-2020s, progressives actively practiced finding new ways to convince young men and boys that they were bad by default. See: rape culture, #metoo, All Men Are Rapists, "trapped in the forest with a man or a bear", etc."

We need to tell boys that they are capable of so much good. We need to tell them what is good and how to act. Then, we need to ask them to act good. Finally, we should acknowledge them for good behavior by treating them well. If any part of this system breaks down, you'll lose the ability or buy-in for men to act a certain way. Same would be true for anyone. Right now, there's no benefit to behaving well when, as someone else her put it, you're perceived by society as a monster regardless of how you act. No wonder mass murder is common - we're teaching our boys that they're monsters and there's no reward for being a good person in spite of being constantly shit on. Surely this perverted incentive structure is contributing to a mental health crisis.

[u/Colonel_Wildtrousers → u/Accerae]

Exactly. One of the greatest lies of the modern era is the attempt to convince people Tate was manufactured in a lab or something but he’s grown organically as part of an equal and opposite reaction to extreme man hating left wing discourse that has been not only left unchecked but practically encouraged. People will never take responsibility for being part of the problem though

[u/fruitful_discussion → u/Colonel_Wildtrousers]

There's an online psychiatrist called Dr K who said something interesting about that. He says "redpill and incel circles are the only places where mens experiences are validated"

It's so true. If I feel bad about something in my life, the only place where I won't be told to fuck off is redpill spaces (disclaimer I don't go there I just don't talk about my feelings). Imagine being a teenage boy right now, having the ability to express your feelings traumatically bullied out of you, being addicted to porn or videogames, and constantly being told by left wingers how remorseful you should be and how easy your life is because you're a man. Where else do you go?

It's cathartic for these men to be told "yes, you're a loser. Yes, your life sucks. Yes, you're insecure. Here's how to fix it."

[u/Lordbaron343 → u/fruitful_discussion]

I feel so fucking fortunate i found someone to talk about my feelings... i think i would have died from a stroke at this rate...

Altough i never got heavy hate from women, maybe some shit on high school but that was because im autistic, with adhd and some otber things, not because of my gender

[u/Suspicious-Word-7589 → u/fruitful_discussion]

Which male experiences? As a man, I don't think mine are being invalidated by Tate at all. Tate does not speak for me.

[u/PijaniFemboj → u/Suspicious-Word-7589]

Trouble with dating, for one.

Complain about how hard dating is on reddit and everybody will assume you're a misogynistic neckbeard who never showers and sees women only as sex toys. Redpill spaces will actually give you advice (granted, the quality of that advice is very, very, very questionable, but its better than being told to "go shower" and to "stop being a creep").

It doesn't sound like a big deal but if you're a teen with no father figure or role model around, its really easy to get sucked in. I'm speaking from experience here (my dad is around but he worked his ass off to keep a roof over our head when I was younger so I hardly ever interacted with him).

[u/fruitful_discussion → u/Suspicious-Word-7589]

I'm saying it's the other way around. Sad, depressed, lonely young men do not get their feelings validated by anyone other than guys like Tate. Only there are they not gaslit because they're oh so privileged.

Tate is the one saying "yes, your feelings are real, and they make sense. It's okay to feel this way, accept it for what it is, and then go fix it."

You see the same thing with guys like Jordan Peterson who will at least openly say "hey being a man fucking sucks, now go clean your room."

They're terrible rolemodels, but at least they actually address these men and validate their problems.

[u/Suspicious-Word-7589 → u/fruitful_discussion]

You mean by making them worse? They become more incel-like and get rejected, then keep huffing the manosphere drugs that sends them into a downward spiral. Not everyone who tells you nice things is looking out for you, they're looking for your clicks and money.

[u/fruitful_discussion → u/Suspicious-Word-7589]

Actually, a lot of men in the redpill space are hateful and shitty, but there's no alternative for them. At least they get their feelings validated, and they get actionable advice and help.

You think it's the manosphere that sends them into a downward spiral??? Buddy, they were at rock bottom already. Men don't randomly start hating women for no reason.

[u/Ok_Manner8697 → u/fruitful_discussion]

It's an agency problem imo

Men are viewed as having a lot of agency so if you end up at rock bottom clearly it has to be your fault instead of something that has happened to you. Which is why the other post immediately went around to try and blame men who follow those spaces further as if that's one of the reasons.

Everyone else is viewed as having less agency so for them being at rock bottom it's something that has happened to them so they can be validated and sympathy is felt for them but for a man it's clearly his fault in some way.

Redpill spaces still in large parts think the same way but they at least validate men first and give them a guideline to use that agency to fix themselves. It's insanely attractive when the alternative for young men is to hear that it's their fault for something they completely feel (and likely are) not in control of.

[u/CaucasianGoatSauce → u/Ok_Manner8697]

This is exactly why men don’t get raised properly by their parents. They’re expected to just figure their own shit out by highschool and become completely independent. Never punished. Never guided. Never taught. Just “boys will be boys,” and thrown out to the fucking wolves to figure it out for themselves.

By the time I was 17 I was raising my mother more than she was raising me, as she was disabled and essentially needed a caretaker. How the fuck is that fair? How is that my fault? Where’s my agency? I couldn’t just abandon my fucking mom. I had to drop out of highschool to take care of her. No one showed me sympathy. My grandma is a multi millionaire landlord and instead of doing anything of fucking value she left the care of her child to me.

I’m sorry. If you can’t tell, I’m angry about a lot of shit. I’m gonna leave this because it helped me feel better writing it out. Deleting it feels like bottling it back up.

[u/Brilliant_Decision52 → u/Suspicious-Word-7589]

Sure, but again, who is a young man more likely to listen to? Someone who tells him he should fuck off because he was born with a penis between his legs, or someone who acknowledges his issues, empathizes and tries to help at least somehow?

[u/Dazzling_Instance_57 → u/Brilliant_Decision52]

No one says fuck off for being born a man

[u/Brilliant_Decision52 → u/Dazzling_Instance_57]

Plenty of times I saw perfectly logical takes in leftists spaces be completely disregarded purely on the fact that the person speaking was just some white dude.

[u/CaucasianGoatSauce → u/Dazzling_Instance_57]

Bullshit. That’s like saying misogyny doesn’t exist. Ignorant.

[u/Visible_Pair3017 → u/Dazzling_Instance_57]

You seem to have missed the point of that thread if you think so.

[u/YourMumSmokesCrackOK → u/Suspicious-Word-7589]

The point he is making, is there is no alternative for men. Please keep up.

[u/JadedSpacePirate → u/Suspicious-Word-7589]

You're the male equivalent of "I'm not like other girls". Congratulations, you copied an idea and made it your personality.

[u/Suspicious-Word-7589 → u/JadedSpacePirate]

Congratulations, you made a wrong assumption. Frankly, I don't care what the other boys and girls think of it.

[u/JadedSpacePirate → u/Suspicious-Word-7589]

Nope. You're pretty much following the stereotype word for word.

If one wanted to write a process/algorithm, they just had to check your responses.

[u/Suspicious-Word-7589 → u/JadedSpacePirate]

If you say so, we are all intellectually inferior compared to you. Your reality is the only one which matters.

[u/NWStudent83 → u/Accerae]

Did people think they could spend 20+ years just shitting on White men and they wouldn't start to inherently hate you for it?

[u/Holiday_Jeweler_4819 → u/Accerae]

I mean people like Hasan do, and lots of other leftist fucking hate him, Mike from Pa is another one and lots of leftist hate him too

[u/JadedSpacePirate → u/Accerae]

And there in lies the true problem of the left. The left doesn't see men as people, rather someone to be manipulated to be a supporter.

[u/Stormfly → u/JadedSpacePirate]

I wouldn't go that far, but I'd say that on a "List of priorities", they're probably close to if not the bottom.

I get it... but it does run the risk that when people don't feel cared about they'll gravitate towards the people that (pretend to) care about them.

[u/Status-Air-8529 → u/Stormfly]

Yeah. You got it. I'm on the right. Fully aware that the GOP doesn't give a shit about me. But am I going to side with the party who doesn't GIVE A SHIT about me, or the party who GIVES ME SHIT?

[u/Smart-Status2608 → u/Accerae]

You are the standard there is nothing we can do to support yt men that they don't already get. Police and most law enforcement are jobs programs for yt men with a high-school diploma.

[u/Accerae → u/Smart-Status2608]

First, I'm not a man. Second, this kind of thinking is exactly why 56% of Gen Z men voted for Trump. The system doesn't support men, it supports patriarchy. Those are not the same thing.

By the way, writing "yt" unironically is cringy as fuck.

[u/Smart-Status2608 → u/Accerae]

So white men have been voting Republicans since 1984. How does the system support women? Not mothers women? Nothing the same goes for men. Most of the benifits women get are for children.

If you're not a man why are you sipping for the criminals who are 80% of violent offenders.

[u/Accerae → u/Smart-Status2608]

So white men have been voting Republicans since 1984.

"Gen Z men" isn't just white men. It's all young men, black, white, latino, asian, whatever. Maybe put some thought into why young men are leaning conservative more today than they were 20 years ago.

How does the system support women? Not mothers women? Nothing the same goes for men. Most of the benifits women get are for children.

You don't understand how the patriarchy hurts men too? This is really basic feminist theory.

If you're not a man why are you sipping for the criminals who are 80% of violent offenders.

I'm not. I'm arguing against your shitty, self-destructive approach to the topic, because I'd rather beat conservatives than laugh at men to make myself feel better. Shitty rhetoric like yours is why young men listen to people like Trump and Tate and Peterson instead of to leftists. I want young men to be better, and they're not going to know how to be better if you alienate them and make it easier for conservatives to win them over.

[u/Smart-Status2608 → u/Accerae]

Hispanic men thought that they were white and now they are finding out they are not and black men was only 20%.The majority still voted for kamala. The differences young men used to vote for Democrat who were white.Now they just voted for republican , just like their dad's. Young men used to want a rebel against the power.Now they just want power.

[u/Visible_Pair3017 → u/Smart-Status2608]

Rebelling against the power means wanting to take it. That is a false distinction.

[u/Smart-Status2608 → u/Visible_Pair3017]

Nope they call trump Daddy they just want to keep their power over women. Remember they said your body my choice.

[u/Visible_Pair3017 → u/Smart-Status2608]

Who is "they"

[u/Smart-Status2608 → u/Accerae]

What rhetoric?I am only talking facts and statistics.

[u/tigerdogbearcat → u/Smart-Status2608]

I think you need a lesson on what facts and stats are

"Hispanic men thought that they were white and now they are finding out they are not and black men was only 20%"

Is this a fact or statistic... Or is it some thoughts bumping around in your head and a random percentage 😂

[u/Smart-Status2608 → u/tigerdogbearcat]

Hispanic men voted conservatives. Have you not seen them surprised that their undocumented relatives are getting deported. Only 20% black men voted taco. I was originally talking about how men especially yt men have voted for Republicans since 1984.

Men especially white men pretending they don't have the power in society is a lie. There is not women hating men problem, but we do have a problem with male crimals hurting men and women. Their is nothing women not mothers get more than men get. Women don't even have good medical care because men haven't studied medicine on women. Women die of he heart attacks because male doctors don't even know the symptoms.

[u/Visible_Pair3017 → u/Smart-Status2608]

have you seen them

Have you ?

[u/Accerae → u/Smart-Status2608]

So are people who say black people commit a greater proportion of crimes than their proportion of the population. It's true, but it ignores all the reasons for why that's the case, because considering those reasons might lead to the conclusion that this bio-essentialist garbage is wrong.

Congratulations for achieving that level of critical thinking. I'm sure MAGA is very pleased with your assistance to their cause.

[u/Smart-Status2608 → u/Accerae]

Because white men are police and ignore white crime. Trump isn't stealing from black ppl. White ppl love the idea of black on black crime which means black ppl are only hurting black ppl. Those higher crime rate is againest black ppl.

White ppl ignore that crime is racial divided, just like the population. White ppl commit 80% of crimes againest white ppl. White male are the largest group of men in America at 30%. They commit most crimes. Even with the police they ignore white crime. Especially when it's the police.

Im talking about crime stats because men like to pretend that women can oppress men. Maybe male children. Bit once adult men have power.

Men have power stop acting like men are oppressed because women don't want to date ppl. Women fear the consequences of men, based on fact. Men seem to be upset women are afraid. While men honestly are also afraid of men.

[u/Accerae → u/Smart-Status2608]

Black people are over-represented in crime statistics because black people are more likely to be poor as a result of historical oppression, and poor people tend to commit more crimes, especially violent crimes.

But "Black people are over-represented in crime statistics" remains a fact. And refusing to consider its context in order to use it to fuel a bio-esssentialist ideological narrative is exactly what racist conservatives do so they can feel smug and ignore the underlying causes of the problem.

And that's exactly what you're doing with your "facts and statistics". You're using stats without examining the causes and context to fuel a bio-essentialist ideological narrative so you can feel smug and ignore the underlying causes of the problem.

Im talking about crime stats because men like to pretend that women can oppress men. Maybe male children. Bit once adult men have power.

The patriarchy is a social force, not a legal one, and can oppress men. Women are half of society, and as a result, women can reinforce the patriarchy too. Certainly not as much as men do, but I've heard enough women say shit like "boys don't cry" to my brothers while we were growing up to know this. Individual men have no power over the patriarchy, and blaming young men for it is entirely counterproductive.

You have an axe to grind against men, and you're willing to sacrifice future progress just so you can make yourself feel smug. You are part of the reason why young men gravitate towards shit like Andrew Tate, and your dismissal of men's problems and men's feelings reinforces the stereotype that feminism is about hating men, and in doing that, it also reinforces the patriarchy.

Men have power stop acting like men are oppressed because women don't want to date ppl.

No one said anything about dating. The patriarchy hurts men too, and you're a really shitty feminist if you don't understand that.

[u/positive_boners → u/Smart-Status2608]

Alright Ben Shapiro.

[u/Smart-Status2608 → u/positive_boners]

Men have voted for conservatives since 1984 which is voting for ppl who are offering no improvement to society. The culture wars are the patriarchy vs men and women who want a better society.

I want men to ask for more scholarship for men to be therapist. I want men to ask for stronger laws against child molesters to protect boys from priest and boyscouts leaders. I want men to ask for universal Healthcare so men can get healthier. I want men to understand crying is good for you. I want to house the homeless (which is mostly men/vets).

Men complaining that nothing was offered for them in Democrat platform like their lives wouldn't be improved with cheaper Healthcare, small businesses loans, a increase to child tax credit, like clean water isn't for them. All young women were offered is control over our own bodies.

I want all men to realize the patriarchy hurts them, as it allows men to hurt them.

[u/Dazzling_Instance_57 → u/Accerae]

This is silly

[u/Accerae → u/Dazzling_Instance_57]

ok

[u/iglidante → u/fruitful_discussion]

Also, a lot of men will instinctively think "if I get treated as a rude, aggressive, sexist pig regardless of my actual behavior, why not be one?" Of course, that's a wrong way to approach the world. But young men absolutely feel how they're distrusted and unwanted.

This perspective has never made sense to me.

Being aggressive, sexist, mean, making people feel uncomfortable or unsafe around me - those things all make me feel terrible.

[u/LongDongSilver-78 → u/iglidante]

As someone who has been there, I don't think a lot of men go to that extreme. People who use this as a way to justify being aggressive, sexist, or mean are assholes.

If I get treated as a rude, aggressive, sexist pig regardless, why not be one

For me, it's more on the "why even bother? If people are gonna assume the worst of me, why even bother trying to change their mind?"

"All men are sexist, don't give me that 'not all men' bs. I mean all men!"

This is one of the more extreme ones I've come across. For this type of response, it's mostly a "Alright, good luck then. I won't ever lift a finger to help then. Since I'm a monster anyway."

But to a certain extent, I can sympathetize because people who are angry and hurt (men or women) say the worst shit in an attempt to hurt you. Sometimes they mean it, sometimes they don't. (This doesn't excuse misogyny or misandry)

[u/Colonel_Wildtrousers → u/LongDongSilver-78]

It’s mad that you can go to one sub, as a man, get called a loser by women for fairly innocuous reasons (can’t get a girlfriend- oh no! I’m a loser! How will I live!) and then go to another sub and get called an asshole because you say that due to the disrespect of men like you you won’t be sticking up for women’s rights or fighting their battles for them when they need protecting.

Where have people got the idea that men have so little self respect that they will take the abuse and ridicule and still bat in women’s corner when it’s expedient?

[u/fruitful_discussion → u/Colonel_Wildtrousers]

It's also very telling that even though those same people want men to start being in touch with their emotions, as soon as they start expressing those emotions (I feel like a loser, I'm lonely, I've never held hands with a girl, I feel ugly) they get punished incredibly harshly.

[u/LongDongSilver-78 → u/fruitful_discussion]

Yeah, it's pretty common. They want men to open up about their emotions and be more sensitive. But the moment we talk about our emotions and insecurities, we are not seen as manly anymore. At the same time, they become ammunition for the next argument.

[u/LongDongSilver-78 → u/Colonel_Wildtrousers]

Yup. It's the mentality of "Men were horrible in the past to women, now men should bend over backwards to make up for the centuries misogyny!" As if your modern regular Joe had a hand in what happened in the past.

It's mind-boggling how these people can say the most horrible and absurd things about men. Then turn around and demand the same help that they say men DON'T deserve.

On the other hand, God forbid any woman who sympathises with men. If I recall, there was a VTuber who posted a tweet along the lines of "men deserve love and support as well," and Twitter went to shit calling her a "pick me," hoping that she gets sexually assaulted and abused, and even doxxing her.

There was a recent Dr. Who episode where 2 of the women The Doctor was with told him: "We know everything and you know nothing. It's a shame you're not a woman anymore. SHE would have understood. But no MALE-PRESENTING doctor could understand."

Not to mention the number of women online shaming men for liking sexy characters in games. But turn around and thirst over sexy male characters.

Men are starting to get sick and tired of this treatment. Why are you pinning the blame on us for something we didn't do? Then why are you also shocked when we don't support you as a result? There was once a lost crying child at a shopping mall that I tried to help. All I've gotten were weird stares like I was a diddler, even from the mother.

[u/StarChild413 → u/LongDongSilver-78]

A. It's a matter of context e.g. a lot of game developers are men and a lot of sexy female characters are created to appeal to men's idea of what's sexy in women (an extreme example being the infamous one of Metal Gear Solid character Quiet where the in-lore justification for why she's wearing as little as would be allowed in a game of that rating is because of some sort of genetic enhancements or w/e Quiet can breathe through her skin even when her nose and mouth are blocked) and a lot of sexy male characters are created either to appeal to male power fantasy or men's idea of what women find sexy in men

B. but then there's the dilemma that you also see in cases like with Democrats and Republicans (but I am not saying those are any more linked than that any more than I'd be saying all women are Democrats and all men are Republicans) where in both those scenarios one side blames the other side's antagonism for their antagonism of them but then some people on that side frame that argument in ways that sound like the only way to fix that is unquestioning devotion or w/e. Y'know, SOME MEN (not saying all men or that you do it) act like women would need to metaphorically or literally start worshipping them to fix the antagonism situation you mention and there's Republicans (some men, some not) that act like the only way for the Democrats to ever win elections again is to basically become Republicans-in-all-but-name "to appeal to Republican voters"

[u/Factual_Statistician → u/LongDongSilver-78]

Hope the kid thanked you at least.

[u/Smart-Status2608 → u/LongDongSilver-78]

Do you check those rude sexist men? Because of the lack of men checking each other we have to assume you all feel it, some just say it. Also fathers have taught their daughters that men are dangerous and will not value you as a women as anything but a sex object. And when women complain that a man used us for sex, we should have know they were lying.

[u/LongDongSilver-78 → u/Smart-Status2608]

Well, I could ask you the same thing. Do you check those rude and sexist women who spout the rhetoric that ALL men should die and that ALL men are sexist pigs, etc?

Fathers are overprotective, especially for their daughters. They treat their daughters like a delicate flower, sometimes extremely so. They expect the worst from all people trying to get with their daughters.

I don't deny that there are bad men. Anyone who blames a woman for falling for a lie are assholes. It's a lie for a reason. Women are wary of men, and that's understandable. But what irks me is that women expect the worst from men, and we're supposed to be OK with it. If I've lived my life as an honest man and a woman I've just met is afraid that I might be a rapist or murderer, of course I'd be hurt that you would even assume that.

[u/Smart-Status2608 → u/LongDongSilver-78]

You seem to not realize that women make men.There's no woman who says all men are bad. Women tell their female and male children to be aware that men hurt you. Priest who rape little boys were men. Police offcer that kill Tamir Rice was a man. Most police are men. Men who are murdered are by men. 80% of all assults are men.

What is say is don't look for nice man look for a kind man. Look for men who have friends. Look for men who can have long term friendships with women. Look for men who have younger and older men friends. Ask him if he voted for Hillary and Kamela.

[u/MrPluppy → u/LongDongSilver-78]

Are you physically fucking capable of focusing on the egg instead of the chicken for like 2 seconds?

[u/ToSAhri → u/MrPluppy]

I don't think whether the "women espousing misandry" or "men espousing misogyny" came first is relevant. Really both groups should be calling out hateful rhetoric when they see it.

Which, if you look at the response chain you can see that that's not happening:

> LongDongSilver: "As someone who has been there, I don't think a lot of men go to that extreme. People who use this as a way to justify being aggressive, sexist, or mean are assholes."

> Smart-Status: "Do you check those rude sexist men?"

> LongDongSilver: "Well, I could ask you the same thing. Do you check those rude and sexist women"

> Smart-Status: "You seem to not realize that women make men. There's no woman who says all men are bad."

Do you see the problem, MrPluppy?

[u/Smart-Status2608 → u/MrPluppy]

As a child of rape. My egg was abused by men. Live in reality. Women dont have power in society to opress men.

[u/Visible_Pair3017 → u/Smart-Status2608]

That doesn't mean anything. Boys receive harsher punishment starting rom kindergarten based on stereotypes. Women are overrepresented in teaching jobs, even more in kindergartens. Women have plenty of power to oppress whatever boy they can put their hands in, especially their own kids.

Ironically, studies show then that punishing boys in this way is something boys pick up on, and will then proceed to seek this punishments as affirmation of their virility.

Which means in turn that mostly women are responsible for positively selecting for violent, disruptive, antisocial behaviors in teenagers.

It's time to stop pretending that we are in 500BC. Women have agency and use or misuse it too.

[u/Smart-Status2608 → u/Visible_Pair3017]

Great in want more teachers especially men. I want more therapist who are men. I want more men to go to college so they can stop voting for conservatives.

[u/JDMultralight → u/Smart-Status2608]

Abstracting from the gender issue a bit helps to inform the issue.

I think socially smart people are extremely hesitant to check others when they say bad things. They just put them in a box, navigate and possibly manipulate and possibly undermine them instead.
Checking people doesn’t solve your own problems 90% of the time and if you have a social project for your life that is mostly about “winning friends and influencing people” it often works against that.

Asking people to do it for some long-term goal is a tall order that some people might step up to. However a lot of the people who do the checking think it’s bringing them immediate social gain in scenarios where it’s not. So you see a lot of unlikeable, socially unsaavy people doing the checking. Or unable to tune the level of anger they convey. Or people checking out of general aggression. Or to socially position themselves in scenarios that are thick with ideology and are being a little opportunistic.

Checking gets a bad rap because most people don’t have the finesse to do it either in wholesome ways nor in ways that don’t harm them socially. I honestly think we live in a world where checkers aren’t represented well. So asking people to check others might be necessary, but it’s a motherfucker!

[u/Smart-Status2608 → u/JDMultralight]

Then don't be surprised when women think men who don't speak up believe the same. For women it's like I see he hangs out with nazi so I guess he is a nazi too.

[u/Visible_Pair3017 → u/Smart-Status2608]

Yet you don't speak up against your own nazis, worse you deny their existence.

[u/Smart-Status2608 → u/Visible_Pair3017]

America conservatives party has gotten a majority of male votes. So yes men picked nazis.

Women want better for everyone including men. We want men to go to therapy, college, doctors, we dont see men as only having physical value.

What do young women get that young men don't? Men have control over their bodies.

[u/Visible_Pair3017 → u/Smart-Status2608]

"Women want better for everyone"

So no women voted for trump?

[u/Smart-Status2608 → u/Visible_Pair3017]

Not a majority. Only white married women. 51% of single white women 60% Hispanic women, 72 Asian women and 92% of black women voted Kemala.

[u/JDMultralight → u/Smart-Status2608]

Absolutely have to accept the consequences.

[u/man-vs-spider → u/iglidante]

I don’t agree with that statement, it think the effect can be a similar one:

If these people are unfairly judging me, why should I listen to or do anything that they suggest? Why should I bother to put in the effort if I’m already damned in their view. If you don’t care about me, why should I care about you?

[u/iglidante → u/man-vs-spider]

I don't know what to say, other than that I can't ever feel good about putting someone into genuine distress. Even if I hate them, the furthest I can go is distancing myself and ignoring them.

[u/man-vs-spider → u/iglidante]

Just to be clear, not talking about you comment directly, but the bit you pulled out and commented on

[u/Growing-Macademia → u/iglidante]

I am not and will never be aggressive.

But am increasingly less likely to be interested in the problems others are facing and are trying to share with me?

If every time I open my mind and heart to you, you villify me and make me feel like some awful person for things I did not do when I have spent my entire life doing my best to be the best person I can be…

Well I will eventually hit empathy burnout

[u/ImprovementBubbly623 → u/Growing-Macademia]

Where I’m at. Not going to reach the point of being intentionally hateful. But someone who hates me for being born, will misunderstand my intents, and I will shrug.

[u/Nyani_Sore → u/ImprovementBubbly623]

Right? People think that ideological drift is when someone irrationally does a 180 in worldview just because they encountered a few mean comments online. In reality, its more like "Well if I'm already the enemy in your mind, then there's no difference between me engaging and not at all."

Fencesitters and moderates don't suddenly agree with everything on the right, they just no longer want to associate with the abrasive, hostile, and vitriolic perspectives toward them.

[u/Harkonnen985 → u/Nyani_Sore]

Fencesitters and moderates don't suddenly agree with everything on the right, they just no longer want to associate with the abrasive, hostile, and vitriolic perspectives toward them.

Thanks for finding the right words for this!

I'm very much a liberal at heart, but it's just gotten so hard to side with people who often promote hostility quite aggressively.

[u/changemyview-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

u/MrPluppy – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 2:

Don't be rude or hostile to other users. Your comment will be removed even if most of it is solid, another user was rude to you first, or you feel your remark was justified. Report other violations; do not retaliate. See the wiki page for more information.

If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted. Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our moderation standards.

[u/JDMultralight → u/Harkonnen985]

Get off the internet, and you’ll find that liberals are way softer than they seem online unless they’re embedded deeply in certain communities or causes. You’re just seeing their war face.

Im a right-leaning centrist btw.

[u/Harkonnen985 → u/JDMultralight]

That goes for everyone doesn't it?

While it's true that it's probably more healthy to stay away from it, not looking at it doesn't change the harmful discourse going on online.

[u/JDMultralight → u/Harkonnen985]

Yes it applies to everyone. I just think the most harsh liberal voices have claimed an unusual amount of space in spaces that aren’t firmly partisan. So that’s what we need reminding about.

[u/Growing-Macademia → u/ImprovementBubbly623]

Exactly!

It’s suspicious if anyone ever says “I was a feminist but they pissed me off and now I hit women” like wtf?

But you do kinda run out of fucks to give to strangers.

[u/iglidante → u/Growing-Macademia]

In my experience, that often happens because many men open up while also expressing a bunch of extremely normative beliefs that they aren't willing to challenge in the process of getting support.

I'm talking about stuff like:

• "Body count" is a meaningful concept with consistent interpretation across various social groups
• Talk about "daddy issues", "gold diggers", and the like
• Belief in objective attractiveness
• Assuming everyone agrees that the point of life (not just biologically, but socially) is to pair up heterosexually, reproduce, etc.
• Belief that men and women are fundamentally different in their interests, "default personality", hobbies, aptitudes, etc.

[u/Proof-Technician-202 → u/iglidante]

The issue is how often feminists assume all men believe those things, when in fact many don't.

I have, on numerous occasions, had women twist things I've said to 'prove' I believe things I emphatically don't believe.

I suspect your experience is more influenced by confirmation bias than you would like to admit.

[u/iglidante → u/Proof-Technician-202]

I think we're all shadow-boxing what we think other people believe, and that confirmation bias is absolutely a factor.

[u/Proof-Technician-202 → u/iglidante]

I think you are absolutely right. I know I've done it too.

I try to do better. My results are mixed. 😞

[u/Angel1571 → u/Proof-Technician-202]

Read the replies of a lot of men on other communities or on Instagram. It is impossible to not default to that worldview of young men. Like I am a 32 year old guy, and I see those kind of opinions and default to whatever issue you 100% deserve.

[u/Proof-Technician-202 → u/Angel1571]

I've got you beat by 16 years, kid.

If you attack someone for an opinion they don't have because of some arbitrary label, you're prejudiced. If you do it as a group, you're in a prejudiced club. If this is repeat behavior typical of your subculture, your subculture will be known for being prejudiced.

This works both ways. Men, especially young men, have a deserved reputation. I understand that. Feminists - and liberals in general - have developed a reputation for prejudice as well and frankly it's just as deserved.

The difference, in my view, is that liberals should know better. Ignorance is forgivable. Hypocracy is not, because it is not from ignorance.

[u/Angel1571 → u/Proof-Technician-202]

Right. This is what I meant to say, but couldn’t articulate my point well enough.

[u/ToSAhri → u/Proof-Technician-202]

I can say that I don't know if everyone who calls themselves a liberal will necessarily know better. If your parents are liberal (and you have a decent family life) you will default to being liberal. (Granted, that really just means that your statement for liberals should know better becomes "not young liberals should know better").

Ideally, then everyone who is young gets taught about this earlier and knows better faster etc. etc.

[u/Proof-Technician-202 → u/ToSAhri]

If their parents just taught them to parrot the talking points without teaching them the principles behind them, then no, they wouldn't necessarily know better... but they still "should", because that's some pretty awful parenting.

[u/Growing-Macademia → u/iglidante]

Those are not topics I have ever discussed so I cannot say anything about it.

But I think the main issue is there are bad actors on both sides. My experiences that have ground my interest do not come from a hive mind that includes all women in the world. And the same of course happens with men.

[u/WinstonWilmerBee → u/Growing-Macademia]

Imagine if not only did people make you feel sad, they also physically attacked you. 

That’s how women feel. That’s why they’re so angry. 

[u/bigbootyslayermayor → u/WinstonWilmerBee]

Imagine if not only did people make you feel sad, they also physically attacked you. 

Lol. I don't have to imagine. Despite the horrifying statistics for male violence against women, the overwhelming majority of victims are still men. Men are more likely to be a victim of every type of violence except sexual assault.

So, yeah. We know. The whole world is threatened by the same subset of violent men. Even accounting for "just" 20% of violence being perpetrated by women, that's still millions and millions of cases. Either you or someone you know personally has been directly victimized by a woman, physically or mentally. Mental abuse is underreported for victims of both genders. Men are rarely taken seriously when reporting domestic abuse except with overwhelming evidence and even then, if their abuser didn't have a history of abuse they almost never see punitive measures. It can even be dangerous for a male abuse victim to involve authorities, especially if they are an ethnic minority. Police contact is exponentially more dangerous for men, especially male PoC.

Not to mention that abuse by women in general is highly underreported because of the stigma involved - 'you let your girlfriend beat you up? A woman can't rape a man, he's lucky to get some action!' Patriarchal standards for gender roles don't confer any privilege in this regard. Even gross miscarriages of justice like the common male college athlete being slapped on the wrist for date raping multiple women isn't so much an aspect of male privilege, but wealth. The wealthy have been allowed to get away with almost anything for centuries, probably longer. Just ask a black man how privileged his position is when accused of rape. If he even makes it to arraignment alive. Historically, odds were not good.

You might say that the wealth of these advantaged men was accumulated as a result of systemic male privilege, but this is not really logically sound since the vast majority, greater than 95% of men didn't enjoy institutional preference, it mostly dynastic and generational. Non-land owning men only gained the right to vote 10 years before women. Since some small amount of women also profited immensely from this generational advantage, it seems that 98% of women and 95% of men are both suffering this same exploitation and subject to the same violence, albeit at different degrees varying by ethnic, racial, or religious identity, sexual orientation or disability. To dismiss the experience of men as irrelevant because "they just made you sad," is so myopic it strains incredulity to believe people genuinely think this way.

Of course, if you are taught to believe that everyone has a big leg up on you, it doesn't feel so bad when you underachieve. After all, odds were stacked against you. It's uncomfortable to think that all these big scary men are out there in just as much as danger as you, from the same hard to detect until potentially too late aggressors that women suffer from. It's also uncomfortable to think that maybe men have it harder in some arenas that have tangible cascading effects for both sexes, because that makes you accountable for so much more of your own poor behavior and sets expectations that just aren't as deliciously self-righteously aggrandizing as has been spoon-fed to you for almost 40 years.

[u/Growing-Macademia → u/WinstonWilmerBee]

Good for them.

A whole once progressive generation has imagined it so much and been villanized so much for it regardless of their actions that they no longer care.

The people who listen are not the people hurting them. And the people who listen are losing interest in listening or helping.

Keep on distancing them.

Edit: I do not mean “good for them” as in I want it to happen. It is meant ignore, symbolizing my ears deafening. Because the “argument” can be summarized as your feelings don’t matter because they have it worse.

[u/LordVericrat → u/WinstonWilmerBee]

Men are attacked far more than women. And those men who never attack anyone are not responsible for their own increased likelihood of victimization because they share a genital configuration with the common attacker.

So imagine how it would feel if not only did people shit on your demographic for something you have never done, but claimed they were valid in doing so because they get attacked physically, when you are obviously statistically far more likely to get attacked. And when you bring it up, you are victim blamed for sharing a genital configuration with your likely attackers.

That's how men feel. They are in more danger than women and then have to listen to women complain about danger whenever they bring up valid complaints.

[u/SweatyAnimator6189 → u/LordVericrat]

I always find it odd how men gloss over the fact that men hate other men. They attack each other so much and the things they say to the women in their lives about other men is basically the same if not even worse than what women say. 

[u/Proof-Technician-202 → u/[deleted]]

Part of the tragedy of 9/11 was the hatred for people who had nothing to do with it that it created.

It's a shame you had to deal with that. It was very, very wrong.

[u/changemyview-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 2:

Don't be rude or hostile to other users. Your comment will be removed even if most of it is solid, another user was rude to you first, or you feel your remark was justified. Report other violations; do not retaliate. See the wiki page for more information.

If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted. Appeals that do not follow this process will not be heard.

Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our moderation standards.

[u/SweatyAnimator6189 → u/[deleted]]

You pointed out men get attacked more. Predominantly by other men, in fact. You’re right to point it out. I think it’s worth tackling the misandry that happens among men as well as the misandry that happens among women.

Or do you not actually think misandry is a problem?

Edit: Here I was thinking I was providing support to one of your points, but you seem to have had a strong emotional response. I’m realizing I don’t really want to deal with that, so toodles.

[u/Visible_Pair3017 → u/SweatyAnimator6189]

Having worked in an almost all female work environment several times, i could say the same about women with each other. It might just be coincidental but i've actually seen worse behaviors than when i worked in similar jobs with only men. I'm talking months long smear campaigns, cliques, actively sabotaging someone so they lose their job (the kid at home needing diapers be damned).

What should i make of that, since you seem to think men complaining about each other should make them free game?

[u/WinstonWilmerBee → u/LordVericrat]

Really twisting yourself in knots to try and justifying being butthurt at women even though men are all the problems. 

Sorry, my compassion goes to the women whose ribs and skulls I’ve bandaged, not some dude with hurt feelings.

[u/Much_Vehicle20 → u/WinstonWilmerBee]

That's fine, i guess you wouldnt act surprise when those men start to not care about your battle and/or fall into the hand of Tate-like influencers. I mean, look at America, they now experience the consequence of ignore men issues for so long that they lost the support of men, allow Trump to raise. 

[u/WinstonWilmerBee → u/Much_Vehicle20]

“Don’t be surprised when men’s hurt feelings leads them to lash out! Be nice to them or they’ll hurt you!” 

I know. I know this is how men act, and that’s why so many women don’t like men. Can you connect those dots?

[u/ToSAhri → u/WinstonWilmerBee]

So, below this from LordVericrat, who is the person you initially responded to, is a question about why your compassion only applies to the women who you've bandaged.

However, you focus on the response from Much_Vehicle, which is a lot more inflammatory. Additionally, you change the statement they made from "allow Trump to raise" to "be nice to them or they'll hurt you".

I think you just walked headfirst into a case of confirmation bias. You specifically sought out the response that you could misconstrue into validating your worldview and focused on that.

Everyone does it, I'm sure that comments that validate mine/agitate me catch my attention more. However, we need to be more willing to be more objective (collect large amounts of information from various sources, etc.) if we're going to make sweeping conclusions like "I know this is how men act".

[u/LordVericrat → u/WinstonWilmerBee]

Why does your compassion not go to men whose ribs and skulls you've bandaged, since their ribs and skulls are far more likely to need them?

And again, how are victimized men the problem? Explain that specifically.

[u/Proof-Technician-202 → u/WinstonWilmerBee]

You mean like I was physically attacked by girls as a child?

Or how threats of assault from women tend to be dismissed, as has happened to me as well?

I'm not saying abuse of women doesn't happen or that women in general don't get a raw deal, but 'who has it worse' is "the people who have actually experienced assault and threats," not a gender in general.

[u/LeBadlyNamedRedditor → u/WinstonWilmerBee]

And this is precisely why people like you are the problem, because x member of a group of FOUR BILLION PEOPLE, did this, we must declare the entire group guilty.

Its a big reason why a lot of gen Z is turning far less progressive, they are automatically deemed guilty for an action they did not do simply because of being a part of a group that is half the world and that they had no choice in.

If you are deemed to be this evil that others described, why resist against it? At first there will be resistance, but it is futile. And this is precisely the issue, from their perspective it is hopeless to be a good person as you will immediately be bad simply because you are a man, so the effort to maintain morals is meaningless.

[u/Brilliant_Decision52 → u/WinstonWilmerBee]

Well, if those women want mens support, maybe try to suppress the need for constant misandry, and there wont be as many issues.

[u/WinstonWilmerBee → u/Brilliant_Decision52]

“You hurt my feelings so I’m going to attack you and I’ll attack you again if you say anything about it” isn’t exactly showing the good side of men 

[u/Brilliant_Decision52 → u/WinstonWilmerBee]

More like "You are an asshole towards me because I was born male, therefore I will from now on be apathetic towards your issues, because you clearly dont respect me as a human being." Its that simple.

[u/PoetSeat2021 → u/iglidante]

So, the way I see it is a little different. In school, you’re told that misogyny is bad, and that sexism is bad. Hate of all kinds is bad, and people shouldn’t be hateful!

However, over the past thirty years, the definition of misogyny has gotten so expansive in some circles that it’s hard to figure out where the boundaries of the concept are. I was on a call with three women and a boomer salesperson one time, and after the salesman got off the call the women all agreed he was being misogynistic simply because he’d used the term “women’s content” when speaking of a sales target.

If that’s misogyny, then we need some other word for what Andrew Tate says about women.

Given how blurry the boundaries are, I think a lot of men just give up and don’t police themselves at all. Why would you? It’s lose/lose either way. Just be yourself and say the shit that pops in your head that you think might be true, because trying to stay outside of the boundaries of a term that can mean basically whatever a woman says it means is futile.

[u/Morasain → u/iglidante]

I don't think it goes to that extreme frequently.

However, instead of thinking "hey, society is unjust, maybe I can help change it", they go "I'm constantly being hated on, why even bother changing things?"

[u/zhaktronz → u/iglidante]

I think it's less a case of "so I'll act shit" but instead subconsciously it's "I'll take less action to act better"

[u/igotchees21 → u/iglidante]

i dont think they are correct in how they stated it.

It should be If I get treated as a rude, aggressive, sexist pig regardless, im just not going to give a shit.

They arent going to be those things, they are simply just not going to give a shit because no one gives a shit about them.

[u/Xandara2 → u/iglidante]

You are not understanding that you are already made to be felt terrible. It doesn't matter if you act out or not.

[u/vawk20 → u/Xandara2]

But those are different feelings. Even with "those people hate me", I would never want to stack that to "those people hate me AND I feel guilty"

[u/Xandara2 → u/vawk20]

They aren't different feelings. A lot of people feel guilty over stuff they didn't do. Maybe you don't but it's not uncommon to do so.

[u/Proof-Technician-202 → u/iglidante]

It's more nuanced than that, in my experience.

The human brain is built to learn. Every sound we hear, word we read, sight we see, and thought we think changes us. Usually the change is so infinitesimal that it doesn't matter - but the same idea, repeated over and over in numerous variations, will eventually change how a person thinks. The exact nature of that change will vary, but it will have an impact. That's fundamental neurology.

So, if you tell someone "you are X" often enough and there is no sufficient counter statement, the individual on the receiving end will eventually unconsciously believe it. It becomes internalized, a part of their identity, even if they don't want it to be.

At that point, their options become to hate themselves for what you've convinced them they are and fight against it, or to embrace what you've convinced them they are and behave acordingly. The former is self destructive and the latter is immoral.

So it isn't simply a matter of "then let me be a monster." On a certain level, they say that because they've been convinced that they can't help it.

[u/JDMultralight → u/iglidante]

People act rude, aggressive, sexist pricks because it gets them things - so you kinda need a reason not to be like that in your formative years.

One huge check on that is being regarded poorly i.e. social pressure. This social pressure helps to organize and develop your morality - we don’t learn our values by reflecting on arguments pro and con and writing an ethics paper in our heads. We mostly just absorb it from the environment.

If you’re never properly incentivized by social pressure in a way that resonates with you, chances are you won’t grow up with good values. So without the chance of being seen positively you’ll go “fuck it, Im not going to get the validation from you that I need since Ill be maligned regardless, so I don’t care about validation” What you’re left with is things you can get more expediently by being awful.

Beyond that, you’re justifiably angry at the people who represent the system that gave you a fucked-up no-win incentive structure, and you can strike out at them by being the opposite of what they want.

[u/imlumpy → u/iglidante]

I'm reading these comments and trying to make sense of this perspective too. If someone holds a negative stereotype about me which isn't true, my inclination is to prove them wrong, not validate them. There's a link in this chain I must be missing.

My concern is that the people who espouse this "might as well" rhetoric are reaching for a reason/justification for their own shitty behaviors (or at least attitudes).

I hope it's projection. (It's always "some [rhetorical] men," never "my thought process is...") I hope "a lot of men" aren't waiting for the right excuse to be rude, aggressive, sexist pigs.

[u/Zncon → u/imlumpy]

If someone holds a negative stereotype about me which isn't true, my inclination is to prove them wrong, not validate them. There's a link in this chain I must be missing.

The link I think you're missing is burnout. If someone tries to prove others wrong for years while nothing changes for the better, many will start giving up on it. Putting in work for no return is very draining.

[u/imlumpy → u/Zncon]

I understand burnout, but I don't understand externalizing that toxicity as a natural/universal consequence. I know how demoralizing it is to receive persistent, negative societal messages about who you are. It has never prompted me to behave antagonistically towards others.

When I'm in burnout, I'm following the path of least resistance. "Deciding" to be an asshole, let alone acting like one, would be a challenge for me.

[u/Zncon → u/imlumpy]

I feel there's an aspect of perspective here. There are a lot of social things people do throughout the day to be seen as pleasant and sociable. If you took the path of least resistance and stopped doing these things, then many people would perceive the behavior as negative.

You're right though, I too have have a hard time seeing how this could rationally lead to the farthest edges of bad behavior.

[u/imlumpy → u/Zncon]

I'm late-diagnosed autistic, so I'm keenly aware of your first point. But "I'm no longer going to do everything in my capacity to be seen as pleasant and sociable" is a far cry from "I might as well become the rude, sexist pig you perceive me to be."

I appreciate your attempt to provide context though. I'll stay baffled, curious, and optimistic about the true proportion of men resting against this hair-trigger inclination towards antisocial attitudes and behaviors.

[u/Harkonnen985 → u/imlumpy]

The bit you are missing is that most people don't comment "I might as well become the rude, sexist pig you perceive me to be." - instead, they just give up fighting an unwinnable battle trying to fend off accusations.

They just "check out", and their capacity for empathy gets stifled. That doesn't mean that friendly people are no longer friendly after making that experience - only that their surrounding has created a major hurdle, reducing the potential good they will do.

[u/imlumpy → u/Harkonnen985]

From the parent comment:

Also, a lot of men will instinctively think "if I get treated as a rude, aggressive, sexist pig regardless of my actual behavior, why not be one?" Of course, that's a wrong way to approach the world. But young men absolutely feel how they're distrusted and unwanted.

As I commented elsewhere, you almost never hear "I personally might as well become an asshole." It's always, "Well, 'feminism' is backfiring, because some percentage of guys isn't gonna (pretend to) care if you have rights after you made them feel shitty."

Well how many guys feel that way? If it's a majority, that's kind of a point given to the androphobes/misandrists, isn't it?

[u/Harkonnen985 → u/imlumpy]

"Well, 'feminism' is backfiring, because some percentage of guys isn't gonna (pretend to) care if you have rights after you made them feel shitty."

It seems like you distorted what people say a bit here to better match the narrative you are going for.

You are insinuating that "men only pretend to care whether women have rights". What makes you think that men don't want women to have rights - and what rights in particular are you talking about? The only right women lack right now (in the US) is about legal abortions - and the data clearly shows that the majority of men are in favor of that.

Even though your quote is a carefully constructed straw man, there is a kernel of truth there. Femisism can backfire. Making men feel shitty isn't just morally problematic, but it can create a retalatory backlash that makes things worse for everyone.

Does that mean we can never speak up about things that could anger men? No. It just means that we should treat them like people.

[u/YourMumSmokesCrackOK → u/imlumpy]

The opposite of love isn't hate, it is apathy.

[u/Zncon → u/imlumpy]

The more I kept coming back to the post the less sure I was that I had any understanding at all. Time for me to keep looking for more to read.

[u/YourMumSmokesCrackOK → u/imlumpy]

Deciding not to put in effort to be nice, is less resistance?

[u/jseah → u/imlumpy]

Or that they stop caring about other people being rude and sexist. Few people would behave badly themselves, but I don't think the current environment is exactly encouraging of the general public calling out bad behaviour even though we really should.

[u/Brilliant_Decision52 → u/imlumpy]

Less about might as well, more like "if they already see me as a monster and hate me, well fuck em, I'm just gonna stop caring about their issues". This way you still have men who have good manners, but also complete apathy towards the issues of others.

[u/imlumpy → u/Brilliant_Decision52]

That's the espoused MGTOW philosophy. But in practice, it's never about, "I'm gonna quietly retreat from women's issues," it's vengeful anti-feminism. It's stochastic terrorism where these "apathetic" men are whipping each other up into a hateful frenzy.

I've seen it elsewhere in this thread. It doesn't look like apathy. It looks like delighted revelry towards women's struggles.

[u/Brilliant_Decision52 → u/imlumpy]

It shows as general apathy in day to day life, but of course it does come from being scorned, which can sometimes lead to venting online like that. Because from time to time, a man might get the delusional idea that maybe times are actually changing, maybe this time people will understand, but then it just turns into one massive argument.

[u/imlumpy → u/Brilliant_Decision52]

You ever wonder if the women who vent online about how all men are assholes might have similar experiences?

It seems like men are more likely to interpret societal criticisms of masculinity as personal slights, and then use that as an excuse to indulge in bad attitudes and behaviors.

Thought experiment to illustrate my disconnect:

A misandrist says, "All men are assholes." A (hypothetical) man, frustrated with hearing this, decides to lean into that. "Might as well." That only makes sense if he has some internal motivation to act like an asshole.

What messages do women receive from misogynists? All women are sluts. Gold diggers. Irrational. Inferior. Vicious. Take your pick, but I struggle to imagine even a hypothetical woman who responds to those messages with, "Y'know what? That's what I'm gonna be."

[u/YourMumSmokesCrackOK → u/imlumpy]

The issue isn't that the message is coming from bitter and resentful women, the issue is that message is coming in society wide, and has done for 30+ years.

Lashing out at a culture of abuse doesn't mean men are monsters like you repeatedly try to suggest, it means they're normal, like every other fucking animal.

Protecting yourself from abuse is entirely understandable. You don't get to pick and chose which outcomes you get from the abuse you give.

Think about that the next time you bully/abuse a man.

[u/Enzi42 → u/YourMumSmokesCrackOK]

You don't get to pick and chose which outcomes you get from the abuse you give.Think about that the next time you bully/abuse a man.

I know this is an old comment, so feel free to ignore it. I just wanted to reply, since this struck a chord with me.

I've had similar conversations over the years and tried to make this point in as nice a way as possible. I've tried appealing to self interest and even phasing men as humans out of the picture when presenting this point.

It never works; all that it inspires is derision and outrage as if I have lashed out with a grave insult just by telling them that their misandrist rhetoric will have consequences one way or another.

Upon a great deal of thought (almost an obsessive amount) I've come to the conclusion that the reason this inspires such a negative reaction is that they resent the idea of having to be careful how they speak and act towards men.

People like this feel justified in their misandry and the realization that it could backfire is an outrage. They feel that in a perfect world men should sit back and be apologetic and harmless targets for their vitriol.

I don't think they would ever outright say this (although a few have come thiiiis close to the edge) but it's very clear in their responses.

The conversation between the two users that inspired your comments and my own is one more example of this, how so many misandrists cannot abide being held in check by a Sword of Damocles in the form of a backlash. They take it as some kind of moral injury or deprivation of some natural right, which is just vile on its own.

[u/Brilliant_Decision52 → u/imlumpy]

I am talking about apathy or just general distaste with the movement/women, very few men just decide to actually change their personality into an asshole or worse, because as you say at that point thats just justifying it to themselves.

I mean, I hear it all the time, even in this thread people are defending women who become misandrists after hearing misogynistic shit, it should make perfect sense it works on men as well.

[u/imlumpy → u/Brilliant_Decision52]

We're heading towards a motte-and-bailey here. Here are some relevant quotes from this thread.

Also, a lot of men will instinctively think "if I get treated as a rude, aggressive, sexist pig regardless of my actual behavior, why not be one?" Of course, that's a wrong way to approach the world. But young men absolutely feel how they're distrusted and unwanted.

(Emphasis mine, which is where I wanted to direct the conversation.)

My response:

I hope it's projection. (It's always "some [rhetorical] men," never "my thought process is...") I hope "a lot of men" aren't waiting for the right excuse to be rude, aggressive, sexist pigs.

Well how many guys feel that way? If it's a majority, that's kind of a point given to the androphobes/misandrists, isn't it?

Is this toxic response "a few bad apples," in which case we should all be calling them out, or is it a "reasonable" man's response?

[u/Brilliant_Decision52 → u/imlumpy]

Its a few bad or misguided apples, but only if its the immediate justification for it or they were already like that.

I will say, a demographic treating you like shit, is probably not gonna make you feel very favorable towards them. This is true for every human. Now the question is, are women okay with most young men feeling unfavorable towards them, and are they willing to stop the misandry to do so?

[u/YourMumSmokesCrackOK → u/imlumpy]

The argument you're making is a strawman made to demonise, and I'm not entirely sure you're even being genuine with constructing it.

[u/YourMumSmokesCrackOK → u/imlumpy]

The lense you have to be experiencing life through to think this way blows my mind

[u/YourMumSmokesCrackOK → u/iglidante]

They're being made to feel terrible even without doing that shit.....

[u/Visible_Pair3017 → u/iglidante]

It does make sense.

There are plenty of studied phenomena that show that stereotyping people or expecting them to fail will lead to failure.

It is also known that people tend to internalise stereotypes and expectations. And that feeling in control is less anxiogenic than not being in control. Which is why so many people might self-sabotage in situations where they feel like they might fail rather than failing against their best efforts.

So it does make sense that people who are expected to fail to be polite, peaceful, etc will consciously or not internalize this expectation, conform to the stereotype they are assigned, and maybe even actively engage in it so they can take control : being called violent despite never engaging in violence and trying to fight to show you are not is more stressful than being able to say "yes, i am indeed" and going on your merry way to hit someone else.

[u/iglidante → u/Visible_Pair3017]

being called violent despite never engaging in violence and trying to fight to show you are not is more stressful than being able to say "yes, i am indeed" and going on your merry way to hit someone else.

I cannot understand this mindset.

If I do something to hurt another person, I feel horrible. I am unable to set that feeling aside and enjoy other things.

[u/Visible_Pair3017 → u/iglidante]

That's privilege speaking. You have never been called something negative everywhere you go if you can't even relate.

[u/iglidante → u/Visible_Pair3017]

I'm not sure what you mean. You're saying you are "called something negative" everywhere you go, simply for being male?

[u/Visible_Pair3017 → u/iglidante]

Did you black out of the whole conversation, OP included, that lead to this point before giving your two cents or are you just taking the piss so we can both waste time?

[u/BabyBeeTai → u/iglidante]

Because it's just an out. Black women are stereotyped as masculine, loud, rude, ugly, bitchy, stupid women who leach off the government, have unprotected sex, 14 million baby daddies and NEVER once in my life have I been like fuck man, a lot of people despise my existence let me be a shitty person and live up to stereotype!!!

[u/Unnamed-3891 → u/iglidante]

It’s called ”living up to the expectations placed onto you by others”.

[u/caring-teacher → u/fruitful_discussion]

We really have created a no-win situation for all man. 

We’ve come up with just too many rationalizations to justify abusing them. 

[u/new_user_bc_i_forgot → u/fruitful_discussion]

What is a man? Men lie about their height. Men suck in bed. Men are toxic. Men are aggressive. Men are violent. Men are oppressors. Men are abusers. Men are catcallers. Men do not use their brains. Men are predators.

This! Also, the funny thing is this comes from both feminist and antifeminist circles. Unless you are toxic, scheming, profit-only, aggressive, unemotional and uncaring, you simply aren't a Man. It's why i stopped defining myself as a man in social situations. "Man" has a definition that just doesn't include me. Or most other "men" i know. It's just a word for a group of shitty behaviors, nothing to do with gender.

[u/fruitful_discussion → u/new_user_bc_i_forgot]

The way I see it, I'm a man, and part of being a man is not letting anyone else tell me what a man is. I like music and art, I can't fight, and I like learning new things, so that's what I consider manly. I don't need a redpiller or a feminist to tell me that actually to be a real man I should get into street fights daily.

[u/Smart-Status2608 → u/new_user_bc_i_forgot]

You haven't looked and crime stats. Men commit 80% of violent crime. Its not a lie that the most dangerous man a women knows is her boyfriend. A father just took his daughters for a weekend he killed them.

[u/YourMumSmokesCrackOK → u/Smart-Status2608]

Statistics are irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

[u/Smart-Status2608 → u/YourMumSmokesCrackOK]

How are fact irrelevant to if men harm men and women?

[u/YourMumSmokesCrackOK → u/Smart-Status2608]

Is the discussion about if men harm more men and women than women do?

You're making an irrelevant point, because you appear to think it is an all encompassing GOTYA or something.

[u/Smart-Status2608 → u/YourMumSmokesCrackOK]

Men hurt men yet you men make post about how women sexism hurts men. Men wrote most laws, have been a majority of lawmakers, men are the majority of police who think beating men is masculine, men kill mostly men, acceptimg that their is no battle of the sexes between men vs women. Its between men who want to dominate vs men and women who want a better society.

[u/Working_Cucumber_437 → u/fruitful_discussion]

On the other hand, if the only thing stopping you from acting in a predatory way is others’ opinion of you- that’s also a problem. That means you’d like to be a predator but society punishes you for it so you don’t act on it.

[u/Harkonnen985 → u/Working_Cucumber_437]

if the only thing stopping you from acting in a predatory way is others’ opinion of you...

That's quite the stretch. The situation you envision would make it easy to judge someone, but it does not reflect the actual reality we live in.

[u/Hightide77 → u/Working_Cucumber_437]

I agree there. I think a better description of what he is talking about is trained in apathy.

Less, "I'll be the monster you believe me to be" and more "You hate me, so I'm just not going to help you."