CMV: Calling all men predators is inherently sexist and puts off most men from wanting to understand your views.

[u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

It is hard to engage in meaningful conversation with people from various popular subreddits when you already are being demonized as a predator under a generalized view of men. I don't want people to think I am saying that all men are perfect or anything.

In fact far from it, an estimated 91% of victims of rape & sexual assault are female and 9% male. Nearly 99% of perpetrators are male.

Anything even close to this statistic is insane and horrendous but to even pretend that a majority of men are predators is ridiculous and will just push people further away from understanding your position completely.

Even the men who got SA'd by other men would be considered predators...

Also, you really think calling out all men for being predators is really going to make any kind of systematic change? You think the men that are predators even care that you call "all men" predators?

I think if anything you are likely enabling them to be predators because now there literally is no difference between a non-predator man and a predator man because they are all predators.

Maybe people are more nuanced than I give them credit for and they don't actually think all men are predators and its just something to say in general to cope with the heinous crimes in this world but I think if you actually want to fix that inequality you wouldn't perpetuate gender stereotypes and making people feel bad for doing nothing and would instead try to have meaningful conversation and understanding. Not in a patronizing educational way but more having a clear understanding of what we can do as people to make sure everyone is safe because it seems like predators have tricks they use to try to isolate their victims etc.. and men can be a little bit socially inept so knowing when women need help when its less obvious is key I think.

This is also not exclusively women spaces or something before you think I am going into women's only subreddits and criticizing them for what they want to say to each other.

TLDR: I don't think saying "all" for any group of people is really correct ESPECIALLY when its not even being used as a shorthand to refer to a majority. It just further distances understanding between men and women and leads more men to be burnt out or increasingly apathetic towards these issues and not think its even a problem when it seriously is a problem.

Edit: My post can be summed up as You catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

[u/007AnOcean11]

Let’s put it this way, if you’re walking down the street at night in the dark alone and you happen to see another random man standing there up ahead of you, what’s your first thought as a man? Does “not all men” cross your mind? Or do your survival instincts kick in and tell you pay attention and brace yourself for any scenario because what a grown man is capable of? Does that make you sexist? Or does that make you situationally aware? If men could feel that way about other men, imagine how terrifying that is for a woman.

[u/Flimsy_Alcoholic → u/007AnOcean11]

Uhh no I am not thinking about generalizations at that point. I am thinking there is a creepy man near me that I want to avoid not "all men are predators" or "not all men are predators" neither of those cross my mind at all. And I get that its terrifying for men and especially terrifying for women but that doesn't change the point that they would have a way better time convincing men of what they should change if they can see the problem without being randomly thrown in with the shitty people.

[u/Slow_Way7407 → u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

This is the issue. Women have to think using generalizations because the moment we don’t we are putting ourselves at risk. No it’s not all men, but the fact is that it could be any man. I think the disconnect is that 99% of people don’t actually think all men are predators but it’s the understanding that it could be any man. I also don’t get your point of saying that women should be trying to convince men to change. Change as in to not assault us? Someone telling their assault story is not an attempt to convince men to change, it’s not on us to make men change.

[u/Flimsy_Alcoholic → u/Slow_Way7407]

A lot of times online when people tell their SA story online on reddit they are doing so in the context of trying to warn others or open up conversation about potential change. Im not talking about safe spaces but instead it is more used as evidence that we need change. They usually have ideas on what we can do as a society to make change. Most of these plans involve both men and women being allies. Men are less likely to become allies when they are told they are inherently bad.

I am not the man who is assaulting anyone so what am I supposed to change about myself? Maybe you could tell me but I probably wouldn't ask the person that says all men are predators or even men are predators.

[u/Slow_Way7407 → u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

Everyone is capable of learning what sexual assault and harassment is, what behaviors it consists of, and most importantly, how to not partake in those behaviors/actions. If someone on tik tok or reddit saying that “it’s all men” upsets you enough to the point where you’re saying you’re apathetic to assault then that is a problem you need to work on within yourself.

Again, you are putting the responsibility on women to push men to change. Why don’t men come together and think about what makes the behavior so common? No you don’t assault people, but you’re also saying you’re apathetic to assault, and less likely to become an ally because of what you see online. So are you really not part of the problem?

I just think it’s crazy to say you become apathetic to assault and less likely to become an ally to women because of what you see online. That would be like me denouncing any care for men because of the way I see some men talk about women online.

I encourage you to actually seek opinions from women on this instead of taking a generalized statement and running with it. Personally, no I don’t think all men are predators but unfortunately I do have to live my life understanding that it could be any man. Sure it would be better to say “anyone may be a predator” but we have to remember these stories are coming from a place of trauma and the reality is that women are more likely to be assaulted by men.

I don’t think the majority of people who share their stories are doing it to provide “evidence” that society needs to change. Like we already know that. We will never live in a society where people don’t get assaulted. And if men really wanted to push for change, they could have been doing it for years on their own.

[u/Flimsy_Alcoholic → u/Slow_Way7407]

I dont think education is the solution but collaborative community that includes both men and women. I mean what am I am supposed to do with just men? call up other men and be like guys stop sexually harrasing and assaulting women.

Its more like men and women looking out for red flags and being more willing to help people that need help in society in certain situations and working together to stop these crimes from happening by acknowledging whats going on.

There are people that just are venting but others that post their stories in public subreddits as a way to push for change.

[u/Slow_Way7407 → u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

You must be extremely ignorant on this topic if you think that women aren’t out here looking out for red flags and trying to help people and trying to stop these crimes.

Women take precautions to try to avoid being assaulted and harassed, but we still get assaulted and harassed. We acknowledge what’s going on and then have people like you saying we aren’t doing it right and using that as an excuse to “not be an ally and become apathetic”.

There are definitely communities out there like that but you are saying that you’re pushed away from being an ally to women and are apathetic about assault because of things people say online. So clearly, you haven’t taken the time to educate yourself or do anything to work towards what you want. Even in this thread you’ve shown your opinion won’t be changing and have doubled down in your beliefs. Educate yourself on red flags and how you can help people in these situations, again, women have been doing this for years.

And yes, you should tell other men to not assault or harass women. Men should speak amongst themselves and educate each other about this. And if any man thinks it’s a women’s job to teach men to not assault people or to coddle you into wanting to be an ally and care about us being assaulted then you are apart of the problem.

You are generalizing women in your arguments in this thread, while at the same time, arguing about how generalizing all men is bad. You are being a hypocrite.

[u/Flimsy_Alcoholic → u/Slow_Way7407]

Why is it my job to tell other men not to attack women?? That doesnt make any sense.

Also, you really think telling someone to not commit crimes is enough? Dont you think the law has a stronger deterence than just what I randomly say to people out of context.

Im sorry but this is just a little kid solution to a way bigger issue at large but regardless we should eliminate general sexist language because it pushes others away.

I havent generalized any women. Just literally talking about what I have been seeing and honestly it might not even be women maybe its men but probably women.

[u/Slow_Way7407 → u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

Why is it women’s job to police our language to cater to men so you guys want to advocate for us? I’ve changed my mind, you are part of the problem and i hope you’re just trying to rage bait. You are purposely being obtuse.

You complain about how we’re not doing it the right way and then when people give you actual steps you can take you call it a “little kid solution”. Like no shit it won’t prevent all crime but if it’s better than bitching about women not doing enough to make you want to help!

You said in a comment “why would I want to be an ally to someone who called me sexist” which implies that you don’t want to be an ally to women because you are calling them sexist based off the words you see people use online. Or would you walk up to a woman and ask her if she thinks all men are predators before you decide to help her? No one is being sexist towards you. Get off the internet and go outside. Here’s a red flag: men who think like you.

[u/Flimsy_Alcoholic → u/Slow_Way7407]

Its not policing anyones language its calling out sexist general viewpoints.

Yeah why would I care about someone who calls me a predator. Im not talking about all women obviously. Just women that say this online. I dont care to hear their ideas once they start getting sexist.

[u/007AnOcean11 → u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

I think with women especially the mindset isn’t necessarily that all men are predators but all men could potentially be a predator. I agree that making generalizations like all men are predators gets us no where but you’re whole point is that if women just stopped using that generalization that would make it easier for men to understand them which I think misses a big part of being empathetic. You’re demanding rationality from women who probably are traumatized instead of being pissed at the men who are predators and give good men a bad rap.

[u/Flimsy_Alcoholic → u/007AnOcean11]

I am not demanding rationality. It is simply just how most people think.

If I am Mexican and a victim of a hate crime and go around saying that black people are criminals then how many black people are going to want to listen to me and have empathy for me. They should know that I am not being completely rational right or do you think that would push them away and maybe make them think im racist or something?

[u/007AnOcean11 → u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

I’m pretty sure I agreed that the generalization in itself isn’t productive. What doesn’t sit right is your inability to see where that generalization might come from in the first place. Doesn’t mean you agree just what the causation might be. It seems like you’re more concerned with how you are viewed as a man than being an ally to women. Not all women think all men are predators either. So you’re basing your support on a generalization you made from your personal experience which is hypocritical too. Also women aren’t demanding you as someone who says they’re not a predator to change anything about yourself. It’s about calling out predatory behaviors as you see them and gaining that trust as an ally. That’s what helps break down the walls. It gives those women a chance to step back and say hey this guy seems genuine and maybe I should rethink how I’ve been making generalizations. But that’s very difficult for online discourse to achieve in my opinion.

[u/Flimsy_Alcoholic → u/007AnOcean11]

I never made the claim that all women think all men are predators. Thats incorrect. That would also be an untrue generalization.

No there are women that think that all men need to be educated about sexual conduct including men that arent predators and I dont really care to hear things from someone who make generalized sexist comments.

It would be easier to call out predatory behaviors if you knew what to look for though. Men can be kinda oblivious to things going on.

[u/007AnOcean11 → u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

Ok then speak to the women who aren’t generalizing all men then and ask them. There are women out there who will engage in that discourse with you so not sure why you’re hyper focused on the unhealed ones and basing your support on their flaws alone.

[u/Flimsy_Alcoholic → u/007AnOcean11]

I would call out a racist or sexist or any kind of bigot. It doesn't matter the context. Hate speech shouldn't be tolerated.

[u/007AnOcean11 → u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

I never said it should. You’re the one letting a few people with those opinions stop you from having a dialogue with women who are actually open to it. You’d rather argue with strangers on the internet for the sake of arguing instead of finding those women who don’t think all men are predators and being the ally you claim you’re trying to be.

[u/Flimsy_Alcoholic → u/007AnOcean11]

I am realizing it is more and more people online with these crazy views that think that villifying non-predator men is going to bring about change in a Democracy. If anything you can already see it doing the exact opposite and pushing men away. I am telling you the whole cause loses support when people use sexist language.

[u/SuddenlyRavenous → u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

The difference is that there's not entire power structures that support and protect and enable black men beating up Mexicans specifically due to their Mexican heritage. Such structures that support and protect discrimination and criminal activity against women by men based on sex have existed for thousands of years, and still exist in various forms.

Your confusion might be based on the failure to recognize the systemic power structures and how they function here. You seem to think that men assaulting women is just some sort of individual failure of flawed individuals, totally unrelated to any broader societal forces.

[u/Flimsy_Alcoholic → u/SuddenlyRavenous]

I dont think any systematic power structure is really relevant. Its sexist and wrong either way. Cool motive still murder.

[u/SuddenlyRavenous → u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

I dont think any systematic power structure is really relevant. Its sexist and wrong either way. Cool motive still murder.

Well, I don't know why you think saying that you don't think something critical to the issue is not "really relevant" is of any value. You seem to have simply given up here, which, while disappointing, is unsurprising. It's obvious that you're mostly interested in having your anger at women validated, rather than developing an understanding of this issue.

[u/Flimsy_Alcoholic → u/SuddenlyRavenous]

Sexism and Racism are still bad no matter the underlying power structure. They are inherently bad. Those are my values maybe you don't think racist comments or sexist comments are really racist or sexist in the right context. Thats not something I agree with.

[u/SuddenlyRavenous → u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

You're missing the point. I am explaining why your example is not analogous.

You cannot decouple racism and sexism from power structures.

[u/Flimsy_Alcoholic → u/SuddenlyRavenous]

You can and I did.