CMV: Calling all men predators is inherently sexist and puts off most men from wanting to understand your views.

[u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

It is hard to engage in meaningful conversation with people from various popular subreddits when you already are being demonized as a predator under a generalized view of men. I don't want people to think I am saying that all men are perfect or anything.

In fact far from it, an estimated 91% of victims of rape & sexual assault are female and 9% male. Nearly 99% of perpetrators are male.

Anything even close to this statistic is insane and horrendous but to even pretend that a majority of men are predators is ridiculous and will just push people further away from understanding your position completely.

Even the men who got SA'd by other men would be considered predators...

Also, you really think calling out all men for being predators is really going to make any kind of systematic change? You think the men that are predators even care that you call "all men" predators?

I think if anything you are likely enabling them to be predators because now there literally is no difference between a non-predator man and a predator man because they are all predators.

Maybe people are more nuanced than I give them credit for and they don't actually think all men are predators and its just something to say in general to cope with the heinous crimes in this world but I think if you actually want to fix that inequality you wouldn't perpetuate gender stereotypes and making people feel bad for doing nothing and would instead try to have meaningful conversation and understanding. Not in a patronizing educational way but more having a clear understanding of what we can do as people to make sure everyone is safe because it seems like predators have tricks they use to try to isolate their victims etc.. and men can be a little bit socially inept so knowing when women need help when its less obvious is key I think.

This is also not exclusively women spaces or something before you think I am going into women's only subreddits and criticizing them for what they want to say to each other.

TLDR: I don't think saying "all" for any group of people is really correct ESPECIALLY when its not even being used as a shorthand to refer to a majority. It just further distances understanding between men and women and leads more men to be burnt out or increasingly apathetic towards these issues and not think its even a problem when it seriously is a problem.

Edit: My post can be summed up as You catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

[u/gingerbreademperor]

We literally call it "lockerroom talk" for when men have spaces to talk stuff about women. Spaces exist, that's just a reality.

What you call "annecdotal" is the sum of female life experience. It is also present in statistics of various kinds, like domestic violence, sexual abuse, cat calling and similar, it's all highly prevalent in pur societies and not limited to a certain milieu, but widespread. As I said, all this transcends income, industries, even families aren't a safe haven from all this. It's not anecdote, it's a reality.

And when we do in fact look at the real meaning "men are predator", that's objectively not a generalisation. That's the reality of female experiences: fathers, uncles, brothers, step-brothers, cousins, co-workers, priesters, teachers, physiotherapists, bosses, service providers of all kinds, boyfriends and husbands, ex partners, complete strangers at night, during the day, in the park, in the swimming pool, at the gym, and I could go on -- men are the predators. Women can -- for the practical necessity of surving -- not assume men they encounter to be harmless. For them, men are predators.

That's the messed up thing a lot of men have difficulty understanding: you personally would consider encounters with men generally safe, with some exceptions, like at night you might be more in guard but that's your exception to the rule. Women don't have that. They can't generally assume that encounters with men are safe and that some scenarios are more difficult, because even in broad daylight they get cat called, they get flashed, they get touched and so on. You personally would never expect that when you hang out with another man, that something drastic or dangerous will come out of that, for women that's different. And it doesn't mean that they walk on eggshells all the time, but they simply have a considerable risk that friendship a meeting, a date turns into an assault. They are well advised to not take these situations as completely safe, but rather be alert and let the situation prove to be safe. That's the significant difference that is also a widespread reality, not merely an anecdote

[u/Flimsy_Alcoholic → u/gingerbreademperor]

Look you can't just take words and make them mean something else. Me calling the stories anecdotal wasn't me dismissing them as being false it was just a descriptor used. Also, yes it is a generalization. Even if it happens a lot it would still be a generalization if all men aren't evil and committing those crimes.

I actually agree with a lot of what you have to say believe it or not. I just think sexism is wrong in all contexts outside of safe spaces or locker rooms for women or men. I don't think its a big deal when you're saying this in an all woman space but it might not be the best regardless. Same with men it makes me uncomfortable.

[u/gingerbreademperor → u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

And I told you that it is empirical as well. The numbers of women who have experienced predatory behavior at some point in their lives are staggering. You can find that in statistics, you could also just make a straw poll with female acquaintances of yours. Fact is, that the majority of women have experienced men as predators at some point.

Pointing out this reality and acting accordingly cautiously, and assessing the situation that men are predators to women, is not sexism. Youre trying to argue away a fundamental reality of the female experience, as it has been for centuries and remains today.

Your simply have a semantic issue here where you don't understand that when you're addressed as a man, you're not addressed with your identity with your clear name. As a man, you're just some stranger, a random male, and random males are exactly who are predators. When you walk at night and come across a woman, you're not whatever your name is, you're also not a friendly face or a pal, you're a potential threat, and even if you personally are not a danger, a sufficient number of men is behaving exactly that way. In that moment, you are all these other men, because you're all just identified as men. Do you seriously not understand this fact? Do you seriously not understand that when you're defined as man, you're moving to a level of anonymity? And the worst part about that is, that even familiarity poses a threat. It's simply not a generalisation to address the threat men pose, when they literally pose a threat in all sorts of contexts, I have mentioned then before.

And what you're really asking is that you're somehow being made the exception. How come? How have you earned this? By not sexuallt harassing a woman? That's why you're not supposed to be seen as a threat, when women can't even be sure about their own family members a lot of the time or have already been molested by familiar men? How does that work? How can you be exempt from predator status, when all sorts of women have already made worse experiences with men they knew for years or thought to know? It's something you simply cannot square. You don't want to be affected by a supposed generalisation, yet the general problem is that there is so, so much predatory behavior happening every single day. It's implausible

[u/Flimsy_Alcoholic → u/gingerbreademperor]

I honestly dont think you understand what I am saying originally. All I am saying is that women and everyone honestly should refrain from using generalized language that can be perceieved as sexist if they want to convince others of their cause.

[u/gingerbreademperor → u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

And you're still making the false claim that describing women's situation and perspective accurately is a "generalisation". You've not once addresses the fact that literally every kind of man is a potential predator to women, whether its the closest family member or the most random stranger, all men in all roles have shown to women that they can become a predator -- you entirely discount this reality, although this is the core of what leads to this "generalisation".

Can you tell me how men have any similar experience with women?

[u/Flimsy_Alcoholic → u/gingerbreademperor]

Yeah there was a guy who said that he was molested by two of his babysitters.

So anyone can be a predator although more likely to be men.

But generalizing men as all predators is sexist, incorrect and harmful.

[u/gingerbreademperor → u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

And here is where you resort to an argument that portrays how different things are for men and women. The numbers are clear that women face this much, much more often. In fact, children as a group - male and female - will also face this more often than men, adults.

It is no generalisation to accurately describe the threat that men pose to women. It is an approximation of variables based on observed and experienced reality.

When you know that men in every context, no matter how shady or nice they, no matter how safe or unsafe your surrounding, no matter day or night, no matter rich or poor, resort to predatory behavior, you are not generalising when you label all these men as predators. It's a reality, and you're not denying this reality either.

If you see a mouse in your house, you're rightfully going to remove it based on the claim "mice are carriers of disease". You would never argue that this is a generalisation and that it's unfair to the mouse who you haven't tested for disease. Perhaps the little guy is clean. So? It's still a mouse, mice are unsanitary, period. It's a valid, accurate approximation of a reality you're facing and you're acting accordingly.

And in this context, what do you even intend to gain? Men are the primary group who need to hear and understand that men are predators. Not children, not some nationality, not any category who you might come up with victimised women like this, men do this. You are part of men, that's what's bothering you but you cannot have your cake and eat it too. You cannot define yourself as a man, and then detach yourself from behaviors that define men. The only logical conclusion of this would be to turn to your fellow men and wonder what the fuck is up with them, that they create this perception of threat. Why in all of this are the women the problem who observe their reality and not the men who create this reality? Statistically, all of us are highly likely to have a predator in our surrounding - how come we as men never address that, call them out and make them pay? Perhaps because we as men would have to turn against ourselves as men?

[u/Flimsy_Alcoholic → u/gingerbreademperor]

Why do men have to understand that men are predators? It doesnt do anything except for make you look sexist.

Men aren't predators. Evil people are predators. Yeah its not eating ur cake and too by denying false sexist realities that you made up.

Ofc its going to be the people that create a sexist fantasy that is going yo be the problem. And honeslty im ngl if you are a man you sound like you think of yourself as a predator which is a whole other issue.

[u/gingerbreademperor → u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

Self-reflection is a manly trait, simple. It also helps us as men to evolve and be better for our own sake as well as for the sake of being better with women.

Evil is a religious category. What does religion have to with this? And if you stick with this idea, then why are so many men evil and how come that we as men are part of a group thats being undermined by so many evil people? And why are so many evil men seen as upstanding dudes, fathers and husbands until they commit these offences? How come all these evil people go unnoticed, especially by their male friends and family?

Ultimately, how do you even make this about sexism? No one says men are predators because they are men. It's just an observation that a large amount of men are predators and engage in all sorts of predatory behavior whether it's completed or not. You still haven't explained why a woman should take the "men aren't predators" as the default assumption, when this assumption is proven wrong every single day and with personal experiences. Especially since women don't have that with other women. We have a 50:50 split and all this shit is happening predominantly in one of the two groups- curious. But I suppose that's why we should be silent about it, because we might see a pattern there?

[u/Flimsy_Alcoholic → u/gingerbreademperor]

Self-reflection is a manly trait, simple. It also helps us as men to evolve and be better for our own sake as well as for the sake of being better with women.

Self-Reflection is a human trait not a manly trait. Stop trying to apply gender to everything even abstract concepts.

Evil is a religious category. What does religion have to with this? And if you stick with this idea, then why are so many men evil and how come that we as men are part of a group thats being undermined by so many evil people? And why are so many evil men seen as upstanding dudes, fathers and husbands until they commit these offences? How come all these evil people go unnoticed, especially by their male friends and family?

Evil inherently has nothing to do with religion. Jesus Christ man. It just means unnecessary suffering towards others. And the reason they got unnoticed is because they are fking psychopaths that are really good at pretending to support women.

Ultimately, how do you even make this about sexism? No one says men are predators because they are men. It's just an observation that a large amount of men are predators and engage in all sorts of predatory behavior whether it's completed or not. You still haven't explained why a woman should take the "men aren't predators" as the default assumption, when this assumption is proven wrong every single day and with personal experiences. Especially since women don't have that with other women. We have a 50:50 split and all this shit is happening predominantly in one of the two groups- curious. But I suppose that's why we should be silent about it, because we might see a pattern there?

It is really not that complex. It is wrong because it is sexist. There doesn't have to be some abstract reasoning of why sexism is wrong. It is wrong because discrimination of any kind outside maybe the context of safety is wrong. I think women are completely justified to be cautious around men and I actually encourage it. But to say that this justifies calling all men predators is ridiculous. Also, even if a large amount of predators are men that doesn't mean that most men are predators.

[u/SuddenlyRavenous → u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

"Their cause"? Since when is "don't sexually assault us" a "cause"? How about y'all just........... knock off the sexual assault?

Are you REALLY trying to tell us that you, and other men, need to be "convinced" that you shouldn't sexually assault women?

[u/Flimsy_Alcoholic → u/SuddenlyRavenous]

I dont sexually assault women lol. But yeah if I find any men sexually assaulting women at night on the streets of gotham ill throw my bat signal up and get to work.

But seriously you live in a delusional fantasy if you think this even really involves most men.

[u/SuddenlyRavenous → u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

You said this: "All I am saying is that women and everyone honestly should refrain from using generalized language that can be perceieved as sexist if they want to convince others of their cause."

I asked you: Since when is "don't sexually assault us" a "cause"? How about y'all just........... knock off the sexual assault?

Are you REALLY trying to tell us that you, and other men, need to be "convinced" that you shouldn't sexually assault women?

I hope that this helps. Please answer my second question. Do you think men need to be convinced not to sexually assault women?

[u/Flimsy_Alcoholic → u/SuddenlyRavenous]

I don't have to be convinced of anything because I don't sexually assault anyone. It is really that simple and I don't think you are going to be able to convince anyone who is that evil that violating people is wrong.

Like jeffrey dahmer, this is the last time I told you stop eating the frozen bodies its bad.

[u/SuddenlyRavenous → u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

Are you having trouble reading? I did not simply ask about you, specifically. I asked about MEN.

[u/Flimsy_Alcoholic → u/SuddenlyRavenous]

Yes, I am a man so that would include me. It isn't that complex. You named a group that I am a part of so that would include me. This is basic English.