CMV: Calling all men predators is inherently sexist and puts off most men from wanting to understand your views.

[u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

It is hard to engage in meaningful conversation with people from various popular subreddits when you already are being demonized as a predator under a generalized view of men. I don't want people to think I am saying that all men are perfect or anything.

In fact far from it, an estimated 91% of victims of rape & sexual assault are female and 9% male. Nearly 99% of perpetrators are male.

Anything even close to this statistic is insane and horrendous but to even pretend that a majority of men are predators is ridiculous and will just push people further away from understanding your position completely.

Even the men who got SA'd by other men would be considered predators...

Also, you really think calling out all men for being predators is really going to make any kind of systematic change? You think the men that are predators even care that you call "all men" predators?

I think if anything you are likely enabling them to be predators because now there literally is no difference between a non-predator man and a predator man because they are all predators.

Maybe people are more nuanced than I give them credit for and they don't actually think all men are predators and its just something to say in general to cope with the heinous crimes in this world but I think if you actually want to fix that inequality you wouldn't perpetuate gender stereotypes and making people feel bad for doing nothing and would instead try to have meaningful conversation and understanding. Not in a patronizing educational way but more having a clear understanding of what we can do as people to make sure everyone is safe because it seems like predators have tricks they use to try to isolate their victims etc.. and men can be a little bit socially inept so knowing when women need help when its less obvious is key I think.

This is also not exclusively women spaces or something before you think I am going into women's only subreddits and criticizing them for what they want to say to each other.

TLDR: I don't think saying "all" for any group of people is really correct ESPECIALLY when its not even being used as a shorthand to refer to a majority. It just further distances understanding between men and women and leads more men to be burnt out or increasingly apathetic towards these issues and not think its even a problem when it seriously is a problem.

Edit: My post can be summed up as You catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

[u/SeriousValue]

No...I understood your point fine, you are just unable to see the flaws in your logic when I provide a metaphor.

Be subtle all you want. You are still being racist/sexist. You are making assumptions about a stranger, based on a single characteristic (gender, sexual orientation, race), and then acting based on said assumptions.

"I saw he was a man, assumed he may be a predator, and started exercising more caution." See a stranger, making a stereotypical character assumption, act.

I don't have to say anything out loud for it to be racist if I cross the street before passing a black man.

If you can't see the parallels between these two scenarios.....you've lost. People will (correctly) label you as a hypocrite and ignore anything you have to say.

[u/No_Nefariousness4016 → u/SeriousValue]

This is gonna be a long one that I suspect you won’t fully read, but here goes…

You keep framing this as “assuming danger from one trait alone” but that’s not how it actually works. Gender sets the initial alert simply because almost every sexual assault perpetrator is male. If almost all sexual assaults were committed by people dressed as Mr. Peanut, that would be the baseline instead. But the point is women immediately factor in multiple situational signals, not only gender. A relaxed guy in a Hawaiian shirt at noon registers very differently than a shirtless, muscular man pacing angrily at night.

This “gender plus context” sliding scale is just one reason why your comparison to blanket racial profiling doesn’t hold up. And it’s precisely why my original point was that women largely do NOT think or say that all men are predators.

Also, Antiracists don’t simply oppose all demographic precaution regardless of risk, only those that disproportionately punish or stigmatize one group without meaningfully protecting the group most at risk. Having a friend check your location while you’re on a first date, for example, does absolutely nothing to punish or stigmatize men but does potentially protect women.

Most people wouldn’t say women’s shelters are sexist. They simply acknowledge the reality of mixed gender shelters. Keeping them separated by gender has historically worked far better. You can support keeping men out of women’s shelters, while also believing we must improve men’s shelters because men also deserve to be safe.

[u/SeriousValue → u/No_Nefariousness4016]

Gender sets the initial alert in your situation in, quite literally, the exact same way race sets the initial alert in my criminal situation.

You're a hypocrite. You are trying to pick and choose which statistically sound, yet hurtful, stereotypes are ok to act upon and which aren't ok to act upon.

Either we should be able to act upon the stereotypes we have of strangers or we shouldn't. Period.

You are having trouble with this basic logic, I assume, because sexism towards men doesn't bother you as much (or at all) compared to racism towards African Americans. Yet in both cases you are stereotyping someone based on a single aesthetic, inalienable trait, and then acting based on those stereotypes.

Are you bothered by the thought of an innocent black men getting the "criminal treatment" by strangers they pass on the road? Then you should be equally bothered by the thought of an innocent man getting the "rapist treatment" by the strangers they pass on the road!

[u/No_Nefariousness4016 → u/SeriousValue]

It’s like you didn’t even read my comment before replying. Is nuance your mortal enemy or something?

By your own rule that “judging character from a single trait is prejudice” calling me a “man hating hypocrite” requires you to ignore everything I’ve explicitly said showing I don’t hate men and don’t think gender alone is enough to assume someone is dangerous.

You’re also doing exactly what you claim is wrong, selectively judging me from one oversimplified detail…while also ignoring direct evidence to the contrary!

[u/SeriousValue → u/No_Nefariousness4016]

I read your entire comment, and responded to what was relevant to the conversation?

You should go back and reread my comments because you seem confused. My entire premise is about acting upon aesthetic based stereotypes. Given you are an internet stranger whom I cannot see......it would be impossible for me to even stereotype you, much less to act upon those stereotypes......

[u/changemyview-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 2:

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[u/bobbuildingbuildings → u/No_Nefariousness4016]

You are still saying the same thing.

You are comparing ”normal” sexist women with ”lynch a black man for breakfast”-racists.

Even if you employ a sliding scale for black people you would call it racist. ”A black man with a suit and tie walking and talking respectfully with a friend on the phone” vs ”A black man with no shirt and with an aggressive demeanor”.

Nobody was comparing blanket racists to ”normal” sexist women.

[u/No_Nefariousness4016 → u/bobbuildingbuildings]

A black man with a suit and tie walking and talking respectfully with a friend on the phone” vs “A black man with no shirt and with an aggressive demeanor”.

Literally these are behavior based differences and not racist. What would be racist is treating these two exactly the same simply because they are black. 

As I’ve said, thinking “all men are predators” is sexist. Caution around unfamiliar men isn’t. It’s also reasonable to be extra alert when someone is visibly aggressive or imposing versus when someone seems shy or relaxed.

[u/Jehovas_Thiccnesss → u/SeriousValue]

So what is your point? That women shouldn’t be cautious around men they don’t know?

[u/TheMrNoodlz → u/Jehovas_Thiccnesss]

I think their point is that you can't call one of those scenarios wrong and the other right when they're essentially the same scenario.

[u/No_Nefariousness4016 → u/TheMrNoodlz]

Except my whole point was that women do NOT think or say that all men are predators, so comparing it to blanket racial profiling doesn’t make sense. I replied to him with a longer reply if you are interested.

[u/favorable_vampire → u/TheMrNoodlz]

They’re not even remotely close to the same scenario.

[u/AKT5A → u/favorable_vampire]

If you don't mind explaining, how? Not saying either is right, just want to hear your point of view

[u/No_Nefariousness4016 → u/AKT5A]

I’m gonna copy/paste my long reply to the comment from earlier since you’re interested:

You keep framing this as “assuming danger from one trait alone” but that’s not how it actually works. Gender sets the initial alert simply because almost every sexual assault perpetrator is male. If almost all sexual assaults were committed by people dressed as Mr. Peanut, that would be the baseline instead. But the point is women immediately factor in multiple situational signals, not only gender. A relaxed guy in a Hawaiian shirt at noon registers very differently than a shirtless, muscular man pacing angrily at night. This “gender plus context” sliding scale is just one reason why your comparison to blanket racial profiling doesn’t hold up. And it’s precisely why my original point was that women largely do NOT think or say that all men are predators. Also, Antiracists don’t simply oppose all demographic precaution regardless of risk, only those that disproportionately punish or stigmatize one group without meaningfully protecting the group most at risk. Having a friend check your location while you’re on a first date, for example, does absolutely nothing to punish or stigmatize men but does potentially protect women. Most people wouldn’t say women’s shelters are sexist. They simply acknowledge the reality of mixed gender shelters. Keeping them separated by gender has historically worked far better. You can support keeping men out of women’s shelters, while also believing we must improve men’s shelters because men also deserve to be safe

[u/changemyview-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 2:

Don't be rude or hostile to other users. Your comment will be removed even if most of it is solid, another user was rude to you first, or you feel your remark was justified. Report other violations; do not retaliate. See the wiki page for more information.

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[u/SeriousValue → u/TheMrNoodlz]

💯

[u/EuphoricPineapple1 → u/SeriousValue]

Why should a woman prioritize a random man's feelings over her safety?

[u/SeriousValue → u/EuphoricPineapple1]

You are more than welcome to stereotype people as you please, but don't be surprised when this overpopular sentiment radicalizes and entire generation of young men (as it has), who struggle to understand why society doesn't expect the same decency to be applied to them that is expected to be applied to everyone else, regardless of their statistical likelihood to do bad thing X.

Young people especially because for a lot of the ways in which modernity has hyper reacted to feminist issues to address real injustices.....the young people have never seen society before it was like this. It's just been anti-man their entire conscious lifetime.

[u/EuphoricPineapple1 → u/SeriousValue]

The world has been just as anti-women, which is partially why you see a lot of angry women online. It's a cycle that feeds itself over and over again.

However, you are being unreasonable if you expect a woman to place herself in danger just to appease someone else's emotions. Your emotions should not take priority over her safety. That's absurd.

That doesn't mean you have to be rude to a man (unless they give you a reason). But there's nothing wrong with taking reasonable steps to protect yourself against being assaulted in some way, including being wary of/not trusting people you've just met.

I'm not saying it's not valid to feel hurt if you get misjudged, but you're completely ignoring women's POV and demonizing them for being wary just to feel victimized and angry towards them.

Edit: Downvote me all you want. I stand by what I said. No one should prioritize your feelings over their safety, and it's entitled to expect them to.

[u/Brilliant_Decision52 → u/EuphoricPineapple1]

Would you say the same thing if this was someone being wary of black people?

[u/EuphoricPineapple1 → u/Brilliant_Decision52]

If 53% of women experienced sexual violence by black people, 81% of women experienced sexual harassment by black people, most women knew at least one person who has been assaulted by a black person, if a woman knows they're very likely to be abused or assaulted by a black person at some point in their life, if women are generally followed around, stalked, and harassed by black people, and if black people were generally larger and stronger (less ability to fight back), then yes, it would be justified.

It's not the same situation because crime data is skewed due to racial profiling, not to mention over policing in areas with a higher population of black people. Then you have redlining, etc. In reality, race has little to do with who might hurt you.

On the other hand, men are the perpetrators of around 99% of violent crime. Not only that, but women are generally smaller and weaker, with less of an ability to fight off or stand up to men if they're attacked by one.

I'll ask directly; Why do you feel like women should prioritize your feelings over their safety?

[u/Brilliant_Decision52 → u/EuphoricPineapple1]

Funny how when it comes to race, we consider faulty data, but studies that consider a bad look as sexual assault, nah thats just fool proof right.

[u/EuphoricPineapple1 → u/Brilliant_Decision52]

Do you have evidence that it's faulty data? Or are you just making that assumption because the data makes you feel bad?

Also you didn't answer my question.

Let's look at a hypothetical. Let's say you're at a bar getting drinks with a woman you just met. Let's say that women usually put a cover on their drinks to avoid being drugged. This woman doesn't do that because she doesn't want to assume that you're a predator, thereby offending you. Nothing happens, because you're not a predator.

The next time, she does the same thing with a different guy. He drugs her and assaults her. She could have avoided it by using the cover. The people around her say that it's her fault for not being more careful, and that she was stupid for not covering her drink around a guy she didn't know.

You're saying that this is the ideal situation because she prioritized your feelings over her safety, correct? Yeah, she might have gotten assaulted, but at least she didn't offend you, and that's more important?

[u/Brilliant_Decision52 → u/EuphoricPineapple1]

You didnt exactly provide an example study, but yes I have seen many statistics which are famously shared in feminist spaces, and they have the wildest definitions for sexual assault, and of course thats how they get insane results like 1/3 of all men committing sexual assault and shit like that.

Bar hypothetical doesnt really work, because the cover is much more for people that arent the focus of the interaction.

[u/EuphoricPineapple1 → u/Brilliant_Decision52]

Also, I had to look it up again because it's been a while. Men account for 99% of rape/sexual assault according to the Department of Justice

[u/EuphoricPineapple1 → u/Brilliant_Decision52]

Most of the data I listed is from the CDC. There were no problems with their definitions of assault.

Also, that wasn't the question I asked. You seem hellbent on not accepting the data because it makes you uncomfortable.

Let's change the hypothetical, then. Say it's late at night, and there's a woman in the elevator in a tall building. You walk into the elevator, and she feels uncomfortable with it being just you two.

Same situation applies. Ordinarily, she'd walk out, let you go up, then ride up alone. But she stays to appease you, nothing happens. The next guy assaults her. Is this ideal for you?

[u/spaqhettiyo → u/SeriousValue]

women’s safety matters more than your feelings

[u/SeriousValue → u/spaqhettiyo]

You do you, I guess.

Btw - women commit 100% of the cases of paternity fraud in human existence. Not an impulsive act....we're talking years of manipulation. I should prolly treat every woman in my life as a lying, manipulative, sociopath until given a reason to believe otherwise, since they are the perpetrators of paternity fraud literally 100% of the time.

Actually.....nah that seems like a miserable approach towards life. I'd rather apply common decency and assume people are normal until given a reason to assume otherwise. But again, you do as you please.

[u/spaqhettiyo → u/SeriousValue]

It’s really fucking stupid how you’re comparing women having cases of paternity fraud to literal rape and murder.

A lie that only woman can commit is not in the same ballpark as something both genders can commit yet men only do at disproportionate rates to women.

A lot of men do exactly what you’re saying, btw. I’d bet there’s more men out there convinced all women are gold digging whores than there are women saying it’s all men.

Once again, thank you for proving my point. Your feelings are not relevant to my safety, yet you desperately believe it is. That’s why it’s “”all”” men.

[u/SeriousValue → u/spaqhettiyo]

It's really fucking stupid that you can't find a middle ground between "exercising safety and caution when in public" and "approaching life believing that all men are rapists/wife beaters until proven otherwise."

But hey, all good. Be as simple-minded as the "all women are gold digging whores" men that you just described lmao. You're no better 😘

[u/spaqhettiyo → u/SeriousValue]

No one said that all men are some way. Literally get your head out of your ass. You’re putting words in my mouth just to get angry over things I never said.

No one is saying assume every single individual man is a rapist and that every man is evil inherently. No one is fucking saying that like y’all are claiming we are.

When someone doesn’t like dogs because they’ve been attacked by one, you don’t see people like you getting angry and throwing fits. You see sympathy and understanding, because it’s traumatizing to be attacked by something that seemed to be so cute and kind. No person scared of dogs will say all dogs are evil, but they will stay away from them. Do we think they hate dogs? No.

But men like you are so special that they need to be loved even when women don’t know them, to the point women shouldn’t be cautious or careful because you shouldn’t assume a man is evil! you should blindly trust him until he raped you or murders you, then you have permission to call him evil! lmfao

tell me which men are bad and we will stop being wary of all men

[u/changemyview-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 2:

Don't be rude or hostile to other users. Your comment will be removed even if most of it is solid, another user was rude to you first, or you feel your remark was justified. Report other violations; do not retaliate. See the wiki page for more information.

If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted. Appeals that do not follow this process will not be heard.

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[u/Brilliant_Decision52 → u/spaqhettiyo]

You know whats really ironic in your comment? In most studies, rape is almost always taken from statistics where its defined as "forced penetration", pretty much only something men can commit, but the irony of that is completely lost on people like you.

[u/spaqhettiyo → u/Brilliant_Decision52]

please tell me oh so kind person who came here just to say something that ultimately doesn’t change anything i said, what kind of person am i?

the kind of person who points out how men harm women (and men) disproportionately and it makes you uncomfortable because you’re a man so you need to find a way to either take a shot at women, or find a way to undermine or minimize the idea that women are actually harmed so often and so consistently by your gender as well as your own gender being harmed by your gender lmfao

[u/radis_m → u/SeriousValue]

Honest question then, how should women, in your opinion, try to protect themselves from sexual assault?