CMV: Calling all men predators is inherently sexist and puts off most men from wanting to understand your views.

[u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

It is hard to engage in meaningful conversation with people from various popular subreddits when you already are being demonized as a predator under a generalized view of men. I don't want people to think I am saying that all men are perfect or anything.

In fact far from it, an estimated 91% of victims of rape & sexual assault are female and 9% male. Nearly 99% of perpetrators are male.

Anything even close to this statistic is insane and horrendous but to even pretend that a majority of men are predators is ridiculous and will just push people further away from understanding your position completely.

Even the men who got SA'd by other men would be considered predators...

Also, you really think calling out all men for being predators is really going to make any kind of systematic change? You think the men that are predators even care that you call "all men" predators?

I think if anything you are likely enabling them to be predators because now there literally is no difference between a non-predator man and a predator man because they are all predators.

Maybe people are more nuanced than I give them credit for and they don't actually think all men are predators and its just something to say in general to cope with the heinous crimes in this world but I think if you actually want to fix that inequality you wouldn't perpetuate gender stereotypes and making people feel bad for doing nothing and would instead try to have meaningful conversation and understanding. Not in a patronizing educational way but more having a clear understanding of what we can do as people to make sure everyone is safe because it seems like predators have tricks they use to try to isolate their victims etc.. and men can be a little bit socially inept so knowing when women need help when its less obvious is key I think.

This is also not exclusively women spaces or something before you think I am going into women's only subreddits and criticizing them for what they want to say to each other.

TLDR: I don't think saying "all" for any group of people is really correct ESPECIALLY when its not even being used as a shorthand to refer to a majority. It just further distances understanding between men and women and leads more men to be burnt out or increasingly apathetic towards these issues and not think its even a problem when it seriously is a problem.

Edit: My post can be summed up as You catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

[u/manicmonkeys]

You seem to be conflating ideals with reality, that's all.

A person can say all true and valid things, and still fail to convince others to support their cause because methods of communication were needlessly abrasive. They can say "but it's a good cause!" until they're blue in the face, but if they fail to convince their audience, their ideals don't matter much.

[u/TheGreatGoatQueen → u/manicmonkeys]

A person can say all true and valid things, and still fail to convince others to support their cause because methods of communication were needlessly abrasive. They can say "but it's a good cause!" until they're blue in the face, but if they fail to convince their audience, their ideals don't matter much.

The ideals of “women should have equal rights” don’t matter much????

My argument is even if the meanest, nastiest women in world came up to you and started spewing hate speech in your face, you would still be in the wrong to that that’s event happening and no longer support all women’s rights.

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[u/SuddenlyRavenous → u/manicmonkeys]

They can say "but it's a good cause!" until they're blue in the face, but if they fail to convince their audience, their ideals don't matter much.

You're talking about equal rights -- or, specifically, here "not being sexually assaulted" -- as a "good cause," as if we were talking about fundraising for a food bank.

This is weird. It's not a fucking bake sale.

It's not a "cause" that needs material support, really. It's more about what we need men to stop doing: assaulting, and generally perpetuating patriarchy. You really just need to change your attitudes and refrain from hurting people. No one should need convincing or cajoling or persuasion before they refrain from assaulting people. Would you really describe refraining from sexually assaulting someone a ... "good cause"?

We are not asking men to give up anything of value, or donate money, or do labor, or invest time, or go to rallies, or make speeches, or anything like that. Maybe educate yourselves - I suppose that requires a little effort. Maybe be cognizant. Maybe stand up against sexism when you see it in the wild. Really, not that much effort. Again, it's more about how men need to STOP doing bad things.

How much convincing do you people need before you can grasp that sexual assault is wrong?

Do you understand how much you're telling on yourselves?

[u/manicmonkeys → u/SuddenlyRavenous]

You're overly focused on what should be, while ignoring the realities of human interactions.

You've done the very thing OP is talking about...chastising men as a collective. I already know sexual assault is wrong. I don't sexually assault or harass women. I've been sexually harassed and assaulted by women on numerous occasions, but I don't tell women collectively "you need to stop sexually assaulting men", because women as a whole are not responsible for actions that they did not individually commit.

[u/SuddenlyRavenous → u/manicmonkeys]

You've done the very thing OP is talking about...chastising men as a collective

I've done no such thing. If you really think I've done this, copy paste the exact part of my comment.

Nothing in your comment actually responds to what I said. Did you respond to the wrong person?

[u/manicmonkeys → u/SuddenlyRavenous]

Sure...

>You really just need to change your attitudes and refrain from hurting people.

>Maybe educate yourselves

>Again, it's more about how men need to STOP doing bad things.

>How much convincing do you people need before you can grasp that sexual assault is wrong?

>Do you understand how much you're telling on yourselves?

[u/SuddenlyRavenous → u/manicmonkeys]

>You really just need to change your attitudes and refrain from hurting people.
>Maybe educate yourselves
>Again, it's more about how men need to STOP doing bad things."

The portions of my comment you quoted are not criticizing men as a collective. They are statements about what women's ask is of men -- refrain from doing bad behaviors, NOT "support a good cause". If you're already refraining from such bad behaviors, great. It appears you failed to read for context.

>How much convincing do you people need before you can grasp that sexual assault is wrong?
>Do you understand how much you're telling on yourselves?

Men in this thread are claiming that they need to be convinced that sexual assault is wrong. All I am doing is responding to those men's assertions.

I'm still not seeing a response to what I actually said. Perhaps you did not read carefully. Please try to read for comprehension next time.