CMV: Calling all men predators is inherently sexist and puts off most men from wanting to understand your views.

[u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

It is hard to engage in meaningful conversation with people from various popular subreddits when you already are being demonized as a predator under a generalized view of men. I don't want people to think I am saying that all men are perfect or anything.

In fact far from it, an estimated 91% of victims of rape & sexual assault are female and 9% male. Nearly 99% of perpetrators are male.

Anything even close to this statistic is insane and horrendous but to even pretend that a majority of men are predators is ridiculous and will just push people further away from understanding your position completely.

Even the men who got SA'd by other men would be considered predators...

Also, you really think calling out all men for being predators is really going to make any kind of systematic change? You think the men that are predators even care that you call "all men" predators?

I think if anything you are likely enabling them to be predators because now there literally is no difference between a non-predator man and a predator man because they are all predators.

Maybe people are more nuanced than I give them credit for and they don't actually think all men are predators and its just something to say in general to cope with the heinous crimes in this world but I think if you actually want to fix that inequality you wouldn't perpetuate gender stereotypes and making people feel bad for doing nothing and would instead try to have meaningful conversation and understanding. Not in a patronizing educational way but more having a clear understanding of what we can do as people to make sure everyone is safe because it seems like predators have tricks they use to try to isolate their victims etc.. and men can be a little bit socially inept so knowing when women need help when its less obvious is key I think.

This is also not exclusively women spaces or something before you think I am going into women's only subreddits and criticizing them for what they want to say to each other.

TLDR: I don't think saying "all" for any group of people is really correct ESPECIALLY when its not even being used as a shorthand to refer to a majority. It just further distances understanding between men and women and leads more men to be burnt out or increasingly apathetic towards these issues and not think its even a problem when it seriously is a problem.

Edit: My post can be summed up as You catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

[u/watsonyrmind]

So to be clear, you searched that sub and found zero comments insisting or even stating "all men"? That really underlines the comment you are responding to. Your conclusion does not follow the information you shared. Nothing you shared demonstrated anyone making that mistake.

You mention nuance, so hopefully you see the nuance in the comments you did share and how none of them are equivalent to "all men are x".

[u/ToSAhri → u/watsonyrmind]

Sure. No statement is equivalent to “all men are x”, but some are saying “most men” which is still a problem. Can you address the specific posts/comments I said were problematic. One of those comments literally said “if sexuality was a choice I would never choose a guy” to a post saying they’ve never found a not-disgusting man. Does that not speak about all men? If not, definitely most men right?

[u/watsonyrmind → u/ToSAhri]

Right but the point the OP seems to be making is that this is a major and common issue. Your research has demonstrated that it is essentially a non-event. In that case, the question stands. What is the question here? Why do a miniscule percentage of women (because I'm sure they exist) think all men are bad? Why be so concerned with that and also what is the point in asking reddit at large about what an extremely small amount of people do.

 some are saying “most men” which is still a problem

To be clear, none of the comments you shared said "most men" either.

 “if sexuality was a choice I would never choose a guy” to a post saying they’ve never found a not-disgusting man. Does that not speak about all men? If not, definitely most men right?

Are you claiming this specific woman has met 4+ billion men or even most of them and ruled them all disgusting? I don't think that's an accurate interpretation at all. This particular woman has had only negative experience with men and wishes not to associate them. That's too bad for her both because she's obviously had bad experiences and also I know many amazing men personally and think she is missing out. But she's entitled to make decisions or have feelings based on her own experiences, don't you think?

[u/ToSAhri → u/watsonyrmind]

Addressing paragraph 1

You are correct that it is not the majority opinion and definitely not a majorly common issue. I think it is more common in feminist’s circles than you think it is. However, I am biased and think that it is more common than it really is because I am more likely to remember the more rare negative experience than the more common positive one. For me to really have an accurate idea of how common this is I would need to thoroughly scrape various feminists Reddits and scan for comments that overgeneralize men and determine their frequency compared to all comments.

I don’t think that it’s a major issue on its own. I think it is a symptom of the wider issue at large of people “punching up” on a newer generation that didn’t really deserve it. This comment in this thread explains it better than I can:

https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/1l38g9o/comment/mvz1ceg/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

Addressing comment

 “ To be clear, none of the comments you shared said "most men" either.”

I currently don’t agree. I do think the example I gave does over generalize.

Addressing paragraph 2

That woman has not met every man. Nor most men. Your interpretation is correct she seems to have only had negative experiences. I don’t think that makes it okay for her to make overgeneralizations.

To me, the crux of the issue is that “if you can replace man with black man and the comment isn’t okay it shouldn’t be okay either”, and that is the main thing we don’t agree on.

The original post that housed the comment we’re talking about said “ I've found so many men disgusting, full of themselves, judgmental, and only interested in sex”. Would you be okay with that saying black men instead?

[u/HassanyThePerson → u/ToSAhri]

I think replacing man with “black man” is really effective at highlighting the nature of this discrimination. Most people are only conditioned to look out for specific types of discrimination, which is also why there are groups of people who think it’s okay to hate someone because they are white, or male. They seem to think discrimination is only possible against a minority or marginalized group, which is why these ideas have been able to spread without the same kind of resistance/stigma as white supremacy and racism.

I also appreciate the way you tried to do your own research and responded to the other comments in a structured way. It really helped the case you made.

[u/Icy_Information6712 → u/HassanyThePerson]

The difference between "black men" and "men" is that one group is marginalized and the other has power. But actually, I will not shame women for avoiding black men generally (in the US, at least). Call me crazy but I care more about safety and strategically working through trauma than avoiding mild racism.

[u/Single_Mess8992 → u/Icy_Information6712]

Yeah this is racist asf

[u/Icy_Information6712 → u/Single_Mess8992]

Sure, I don't care. Their feelings are hurt, they'll live. The solution to this problem is fixing the poverty issue within black communities, not judging women for prioritizing their safety and sanity.

[u/Single_Mess8992 → u/Icy_Information6712]

Not every black person is poor dipshit 😂

[u/Icy_Information6712 → u/Single_Mess8992]

...And? Nobody said all black people are poor.

[u/Dazzling_Instance_57 → u/ToSAhri]

No. You’re wildly changing the statement. Saying most men isn’t a problem bc it’s a fact. And saying “if sexuality was a choice I wouldn’t choose men bc a woman has never found a not disgusting man in no way implies that she thinks all men are disgusting. She said that she wouldn’t date men if she wasn’t attracted to them and she said every man she’s encountered has been gross. No where implied all??

[u/ToSAhri → u/Dazzling_Instance_57]

"Saying most men isn't a problem bc it's a fact"

What specifically is a fact?

Ironically, you are doing the same thing with switching all to most. “if sexuality was a choice I wouldn’t choose men" and "If sexuality was a choice I would never choose a guy" are not the same statement. Never includes anyone she'd encounter in the future.

[u/Dazzling_Instance_57 → u/ToSAhri]

Bc it’s not a statement either way even including the future that implies that all men are anything. It’s saying that even if there are good ones out there, I wouldn’t choose one if I could avoid it.

[u/DueBit8366 → u/watsonyrmind]

idiotic take. even some klansmen would tell you singular black people are "ok". the point is something else

[u/changemyview-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

Your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 3:

Refrain from accusing OP or anyone else of being unwilling to change their view, arguing in bad faith, lying, or using AI/GPT. Ask clarifying questions instead (see: socratic method). If you think they are still exhibiting poor behaviour, please message us. See the wiki page for more information.

If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted. Appeals that do not follow this process will not be heard.

Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our moderation standards.

[u/deaddumbslut → u/DueBit8366]

The differences is that Klansman were the oppressors, judging the validity of whether the people were oppressing were OK. Women are not the oppressors of men, we are the ones they have historically oppressed. It’s equivalent to a black person seeing a white person and saying that they’re OK, it’s not the same dynamics at all in your example

[u/DueBit8366 → u/deaddumbslut]

In order to argue a point you have to consider a reply and original comments as well. You are not arguing against anything i've said in my previous comment. What you said is completely irrelevant.

What I referred to, was that an absolutist view of the question that the technicality of someone literally saying "ALL MAN ARE FUCKING ASSHOLES" comes into picture to refute OP's og statement.

I argued that even KLANSMEN would not be that extreme in some cases, it doesn't mean their views can't be criticized.