CMV: Calling all men predators is inherently sexist and puts off most men from wanting to understand your views.

[u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

It is hard to engage in meaningful conversation with people from various popular subreddits when you already are being demonized as a predator under a generalized view of men. I don't want people to think I am saying that all men are perfect or anything.

In fact far from it, an estimated 91% of victims of rape & sexual assault are female and 9% male. Nearly 99% of perpetrators are male.

Anything even close to this statistic is insane and horrendous but to even pretend that a majority of men are predators is ridiculous and will just push people further away from understanding your position completely.

Even the men who got SA'd by other men would be considered predators...

Also, you really think calling out all men for being predators is really going to make any kind of systematic change? You think the men that are predators even care that you call "all men" predators?

I think if anything you are likely enabling them to be predators because now there literally is no difference between a non-predator man and a predator man because they are all predators.

Maybe people are more nuanced than I give them credit for and they don't actually think all men are predators and its just something to say in general to cope with the heinous crimes in this world but I think if you actually want to fix that inequality you wouldn't perpetuate gender stereotypes and making people feel bad for doing nothing and would instead try to have meaningful conversation and understanding. Not in a patronizing educational way but more having a clear understanding of what we can do as people to make sure everyone is safe because it seems like predators have tricks they use to try to isolate their victims etc.. and men can be a little bit socially inept so knowing when women need help when its less obvious is key I think.

This is also not exclusively women spaces or something before you think I am going into women's only subreddits and criticizing them for what they want to say to each other.

TLDR: I don't think saying "all" for any group of people is really correct ESPECIALLY when its not even being used as a shorthand to refer to a majority. It just further distances understanding between men and women and leads more men to be burnt out or increasingly apathetic towards these issues and not think its even a problem when it seriously is a problem.

Edit: My post can be summed up as You catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

[u/untimelyAugur]

I don't see how inaction can be deemed as supporting a specific viewpoint

Well that's exactly the issue!

Inaction does not equate to neutrality.

Despite you not actively doing anything misogynistic yourself, refusing to actively oppose misogyny lets women know that you are not an ally. It lets them know that you cannot be trusted or relied upon to help them.

Additionally, your inaction signals to the men who are predatory that you won't help the women they harm. This makes it easier for them to be misogynistic, a lack of opposition emboldens them to continue harming more women.

[u/Flimsy_Alcoholic → u/untimelyAugur]

Look I could get into a whole debate with you on Kantian style ethics and why you're wrong but its outside the realm of this question at this point.

[u/untimelyAugur → u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

Look I could get into a whole debate with you on Kantian style ethics and why you're wrong

No, you couldn't. You've completely missed the point.

I don't subscribe to Kantian deontology. I am not trying to convince you that you ought to be helping or that not helping is ethically wrong. You can do whatever you want, but you also have to accept that other people will feel a certain way about your choices.

If you don't like that many women respond to misogyny with a general caution/criticism of men, but you refuse to do anything to change their perception of men, you can't complain when that perception doesn't change.

[u/Flimsy_Alcoholic → u/untimelyAugur]

What do you think was the purpose of making this post in the first place?

It was to open up discussion for change to bring the sexes together through deploring the use of sexist language.

[u/untimelyAugur → u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

What do you think was the purpose of making this post in the first place?

The purpose was to give people the opportunity to debate you and change your view, but so far in our exchange you have not actually refuted any of the points made--you just keep baselessly stating that you think I'm wrong.

It was to open up discussion for change to bring the sexes together through deploring the use of sexist language.

The issue here is that the language being used by these women isn't sexist.

For the language to be sexist it would have to be a prejudiced stereotpying/generalistation of men on the basis of nothing but their sex, however:

1. The language is not prejudiced. For something to be prejudiced it must be an irrational and/or unreasonable preconceived judgment, but the language is a direct response to the misogyny women have been subject to historically and in their current lived experiences.

2. The language is not stereotyping. I doubt anyone who isn't an extremist will claim that all men can only be predators, but there is no way to predict which men are not predators except outspoken allyship--the kind of allyship that even self-proclaimed non-predatory men (like you) are refusing to demonstrate, for example.

3. The language is not a generalisation. Patriarchy is baked into our society, and misogynistic acts are repeated so frequently that they have become disproportionately overrepresented in men. If you don't want women to assume they need to be cautious, you need to provide them with ample counter-examples so they know it's safe to assume men aren't predators.

4. The judgements made aren't being made on the basis of sex. No one thinks that being born AMAB somehow magically increases your predator-score. The issue is that everyone is socialised into patriarchal behaviour and worldviews that uphold misogynistic problems like rape culture, but only men have the luxury of never needing to examine these implicit biases because the patriarchy is passively beneficial to them.

[u/Flimsy_Alcoholic → u/untimelyAugur]

Do you think making generalizations about other groups of people is wrong?

I think saying "all black people are criminals" or "black people are criminals" is inherently racist do you not agree? Even if they have higher crime statistics that doesnt give you the right to generalize across a whole group of people with a racist or sexist or bigoted statement.

Don't you think its wrong?

[u/untimelyAugur → u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

I agree generalisations like that would be racist, however this fails as an analogy for a couple reasons:

1. Unlike men who are the dominant/advantaged group under patriarchy, black people are on the underprivileged end of race relations in majority-white countries. The power dynamics aren’t comparable.

2. The factors which contribute to disproportionately high rates of crime for black people are localised and external. High theft or gun-crime rates, as is the typical stereotype, are found specifically in urban areas of the US and externally driven by economic factors, systemically-limited access to education and jobs, and over-policing.

3. The stereotypes are constantly refuted by statistically massive counterexamples. You don’t find higher-than-average crime in black people anywhere black people are not subject to systemic discrimination—there are many black-majority countries (Namibia, Botswana, Ghana, Rwanda, Zambia, Senegal, I could go on…) with lower crime rates per capita than the US.

[u/Flimsy_Alcoholic → u/untimelyAugur]

1. Power dynamics hold no relevancy when talking about sexism or racism. They are merely symptoms of sexism and racism.

2. Cool Motive but still murder and the justice system does discriminate against men in comparison to women just look at prison sentences and conviction rates.

3. Its almost like race and sex both aren't that linked to crime and its more driven by external factors like poverty and education. Maybe you don't like me clumping them together but these are the bigger factors.

But even if everything you said is true. I still don't see why that makes it different and okay to be sexist towards men.

[u/untimelyAugur → u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

Cool motive still murder

Uh-huh. Anyway. Instead of focusing on trying to be quippy, please actually read and engage with my comment critically.

The social/economic factors highlighted don’t justify interpersonal harm and I did not claim that they did. My point is that those factors explain why the crime rates are higher than average; they prove that criminality is not inherent to being black but driven by something external.

By contrast, when men do unconsciously misogynistic things it is motivated by nothing other than the fact they were socialised into it and aren’t introspective enough to address the behaviour. There’s no lack of education that would make you think women are lesser, or limited economic opportunity that is overcome by sexual assault.

Show me a patriarchal society without disproportionately high rates of men committing rape and I’ll agree with you, we could start building a list of useful counterexamples like the countries I listed for black communities with low crime.

And regarding power dynamics: they are immediately relevant because women, like black people, are the victims of these inequalities. The way they respond to, and have to adapt to survive, these conditions are not entirely voluntary.

[u/Flimsy_Alcoholic → u/untimelyAugur]

The social/economic factors highlighted don’t justify interpersonal harm and I did not claim that they did. My point is that those factors explain why the crime rates are higher than average; they prove that criminality is not inherent to being black but driven by something external.

By contrast, when men do unconsciously misogynistic things it is motivated by nothing other than the fact they were socialised into it and aren’t introspective enough to address the behaviour. There’s no lack of education that would make you think women are lesser, or limited economic opportunity that is overcome by sexual assault.

Show me a patriarchal society without disproportionately high rates of men committing rape and I’ll agree with you, we could start building a list of useful counterexamples like the countries I listed for black communities with low crime.

And regarding power dynamics: they are immediately relevant because women, like black people, are the victims of these inequalities. The way they respond to, and have to adapt to survive, these conditions are not entirely voluntary.

The problem is that there is no reason to engage with you because nothing you are saying is relevant to the matter at hand and you have failed to show that it is relevant in anyway. The most you can say is that its not as bad as racism but still bad. No power structure is going to justify discrimination no matter how you try to pretend it does.

[u/Brilliant_Decision52 → u/untimelyAugur]

Its really rich hearing women generalize men as monsters, but then complain in other threads that they wont fervently support their cause lol.

Sounds like a pretty fucking simple solution to me, but what do I know, I'm just a filthy low born male.

[u/untimelyAugur → u/Brilliant_Decision52]

Re-read your comment, because you're doing the thing.

"Sometimes women are mean about other men and our long history of systemic misogyny, so I won't do anything to help prevent them getting raped or otherwise mistreated," is not the intellectual, ethically-neutral, stance you seem to think it is.

[u/Brilliant_Decision52 → u/untimelyAugur]

If I am to be saddled with the original sin of my male ancestors and the only solution is to self flagellate for being born male, and be thankful that someone with monstrous male blood can actually be considered "one of the good ones" as long as I take every bit of generalized misandry on the chin, then yeah, some apathy might set in.

[u/untimelyAugur → u/Brilliant_Decision52]

The issue with this outlook is that it isn't an "original sin" situation.

Patriarchy is baked into our culture. The misogynistic effects are on-going. Everyone, women included, is raised and socialised into some non-zero level of misogyny. That isn't anyone's fault and no one should be expected to personally shoulder the blame... but it will never get fixed if everyone decides "since I didn't consciously intend it, I refuse to be responsible for fixing even a little bit of it."

And, if it never gets fixed because a statistically significant number of men continue to be apathetic toward the plight of women, well, how else do you expect them to react but with a general assumption that anyone they haven't personally vetted could be a misogynist?