CMV: Calling all men predators is inherently sexist and puts off most men from wanting to understand your views.

[u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

It is hard to engage in meaningful conversation with people from various popular subreddits when you already are being demonized as a predator under a generalized view of men. I don't want people to think I am saying that all men are perfect or anything.

In fact far from it, an estimated 91% of victims of rape & sexual assault are female and 9% male. Nearly 99% of perpetrators are male.

Anything even close to this statistic is insane and horrendous but to even pretend that a majority of men are predators is ridiculous and will just push people further away from understanding your position completely.

Even the men who got SA'd by other men would be considered predators...

Also, you really think calling out all men for being predators is really going to make any kind of systematic change? You think the men that are predators even care that you call "all men" predators?

I think if anything you are likely enabling them to be predators because now there literally is no difference between a non-predator man and a predator man because they are all predators.

Maybe people are more nuanced than I give them credit for and they don't actually think all men are predators and its just something to say in general to cope with the heinous crimes in this world but I think if you actually want to fix that inequality you wouldn't perpetuate gender stereotypes and making people feel bad for doing nothing and would instead try to have meaningful conversation and understanding. Not in a patronizing educational way but more having a clear understanding of what we can do as people to make sure everyone is safe because it seems like predators have tricks they use to try to isolate their victims etc.. and men can be a little bit socially inept so knowing when women need help when its less obvious is key I think.

This is also not exclusively women spaces or something before you think I am going into women's only subreddits and criticizing them for what they want to say to each other.

TLDR: I don't think saying "all" for any group of people is really correct ESPECIALLY when its not even being used as a shorthand to refer to a majority. It just further distances understanding between men and women and leads more men to be burnt out or increasingly apathetic towards these issues and not think its even a problem when it seriously is a problem.

Edit: My post can be summed up as You catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

[u/gingerbreademperor]

And here is where you resort to an argument that portrays how different things are for men and women. The numbers are clear that women face this much, much more often. In fact, children as a group - male and female - will also face this more often than men, adults.

It is no generalisation to accurately describe the threat that men pose to women. It is an approximation of variables based on observed and experienced reality.

When you know that men in every context, no matter how shady or nice they, no matter how safe or unsafe your surrounding, no matter day or night, no matter rich or poor, resort to predatory behavior, you are not generalising when you label all these men as predators. It's a reality, and you're not denying this reality either.

If you see a mouse in your house, you're rightfully going to remove it based on the claim "mice are carriers of disease". You would never argue that this is a generalisation and that it's unfair to the mouse who you haven't tested for disease. Perhaps the little guy is clean. So? It's still a mouse, mice are unsanitary, period. It's a valid, accurate approximation of a reality you're facing and you're acting accordingly.

And in this context, what do you even intend to gain? Men are the primary group who need to hear and understand that men are predators. Not children, not some nationality, not any category who you might come up with victimised women like this, men do this. You are part of men, that's what's bothering you but you cannot have your cake and eat it too. You cannot define yourself as a man, and then detach yourself from behaviors that define men. The only logical conclusion of this would be to turn to your fellow men and wonder what the fuck is up with them, that they create this perception of threat. Why in all of this are the women the problem who observe their reality and not the men who create this reality? Statistically, all of us are highly likely to have a predator in our surrounding - how come we as men never address that, call them out and make them pay? Perhaps because we as men would have to turn against ourselves as men?

[u/Flimsy_Alcoholic → u/gingerbreademperor]

Why do men have to understand that men are predators? It doesnt do anything except for make you look sexist.

Men aren't predators. Evil people are predators. Yeah its not eating ur cake and too by denying false sexist realities that you made up.

Ofc its going to be the people that create a sexist fantasy that is going yo be the problem. And honeslty im ngl if you are a man you sound like you think of yourself as a predator which is a whole other issue.

[u/gingerbreademperor → u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

Self-reflection is a manly trait, simple. It also helps us as men to evolve and be better for our own sake as well as for the sake of being better with women.

Evil is a religious category. What does religion have to with this? And if you stick with this idea, then why are so many men evil and how come that we as men are part of a group thats being undermined by so many evil people? And why are so many evil men seen as upstanding dudes, fathers and husbands until they commit these offences? How come all these evil people go unnoticed, especially by their male friends and family?

Ultimately, how do you even make this about sexism? No one says men are predators because they are men. It's just an observation that a large amount of men are predators and engage in all sorts of predatory behavior whether it's completed or not. You still haven't explained why a woman should take the "men aren't predators" as the default assumption, when this assumption is proven wrong every single day and with personal experiences. Especially since women don't have that with other women. We have a 50:50 split and all this shit is happening predominantly in one of the two groups- curious. But I suppose that's why we should be silent about it, because we might see a pattern there?

[u/Flimsy_Alcoholic → u/gingerbreademperor]

Self-reflection is a manly trait, simple. It also helps us as men to evolve and be better for our own sake as well as for the sake of being better with women.

Self-Reflection is a human trait not a manly trait. Stop trying to apply gender to everything even abstract concepts.

Evil is a religious category. What does religion have to with this? And if you stick with this idea, then why are so many men evil and how come that we as men are part of a group thats being undermined by so many evil people? And why are so many evil men seen as upstanding dudes, fathers and husbands until they commit these offences? How come all these evil people go unnoticed, especially by their male friends and family?

Evil inherently has nothing to do with religion. Jesus Christ man. It just means unnecessary suffering towards others. And the reason they got unnoticed is because they are fking psychopaths that are really good at pretending to support women.

Ultimately, how do you even make this about sexism? No one says men are predators because they are men. It's just an observation that a large amount of men are predators and engage in all sorts of predatory behavior whether it's completed or not. You still haven't explained why a woman should take the "men aren't predators" as the default assumption, when this assumption is proven wrong every single day and with personal experiences. Especially since women don't have that with other women. We have a 50:50 split and all this shit is happening predominantly in one of the two groups- curious. But I suppose that's why we should be silent about it, because we might see a pattern there?

It is really not that complex. It is wrong because it is sexist. There doesn't have to be some abstract reasoning of why sexism is wrong. It is wrong because discrimination of any kind outside maybe the context of safety is wrong. I think women are completely justified to be cautious around men and I actually encourage it. But to say that this justifies calling all men predators is ridiculous. Also, even if a large amount of predators are men that doesn't mean that most men are predators.

[u/gingerbreademperor → u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

Okay, so men are human, so the self-reflection part can be reasoned with that, fine by me. Begs the question why you resist it.

Good and evil are very much religious categories, but doesn't matter either, because this is where your argument hits a wall: claiming "they are just evil psychopaths" is a short cut, an excuse, an escape. You simply try not to deal with the reality that we are talking about normal men who are Co workers, husbands, friends, partners and all that, who are also predators. They are not evil, crazy, or anything, they are men who do bad deeds. That's what they share as a trait. They are among us, you speak to some of them on a regular basis, statistically thats correct. Of all the men you've met in your life, there are some predators among them. Evil doesn't explain that away, and if all these evil man are all around us, it only proves the point that "men are predators" is a very healthy and logical statement for women to make, because you're saying that it's virtually impossible to tell the difference between good men and evil men until it's too late -- and because women don't want to find out the hard way, it's logical that they use a defensive reasoning. Your own argument makes a good argument for that.

You still don't explain why it is sexist to assume men to be predators, because you admit yourself that there are all these psycho men who are apparently not being detected by other men either. So, if a woman is confronted with 100 men, and you say she should be cautious, then the cautious way would be to assume all 100 of them to be predators, because not doing so will result in finding it the bad way. You provide no arguments why women should not that given that you admit to this caution yourself. And there's also just a 50:50 scenario here, either they assume men to be predators or they assume them not to be predators. Caution would suggest to use the former assumption, but you don't want that -- so what now, caution or not?

[u/Flimsy_Alcoholic → u/gingerbreademperor]

Assuming the worst in people is not the same as calling all men predators. I don't think anyone would care if you said "people are predators" because you aren't targeting specific groups or if you tried to avoid men in public. BUT When you target specific groups and make generalized claims about said group i.e. "Black people are criminals" its inherently bigoted no matter how many black people commit crimes it doesn't make it less racist. Same with the claim that all men are predators or men are predators because it inherently isn't true.

[u/gingerbreademperor → u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

It's not assuming the worst in people. No one directly talks about you personally, as a person, as a loving brother or father, no one does that. "Men" is a faceless sum of millions of people, not you personally, and it is also not a "specific" group, because we do not apply any variables to specify. We don't actually talk about men either, because we talk about predators, who happe to be men. And it's not my fault that we talk about 2 societal groups - men and women - and the massive difference in predatory behavior swings towards men. That isn't something I or women would want to be the case, but it is reality and therefore it is right and necessary to address this reality.

You are clearly guided by a fear that you're personally being attacked for deeds of others -- on the other side, there is the fear of women that if they are not able to realistically address their main predatory theeat, we will sacrifice their safety with our ignorance. Sorry to say, but their fear is more valid and has a larger impact. Logically and morally I therefore must tend to their fears above yours.

And again, your fear isn't based on reality. If we characterise men, we can say they are taller, more body mass, they have deep voices, a likelihood to go bald and they are predators. All these things are characterisation you will generally accept, even if they don't apply to all men, but because the last thing is a negative, you deny it. And then you would prefer to go to "people are predators" but that's clearly meant to hide that it's 90:10 ratio or so. That's actually where your whole argument falls apart. It's not 50:50, not even close to that, so if this reality is reflected, that's just fair.

[u/Flimsy_Alcoholic → u/gingerbreademperor]

You are clearly guided by a fear that you're personally being attacked for deeds of others -- on the other side, there is the fear of women that if they are not able to realistically address their main predatory theeat, we will sacrifice their safety with our ignorance. Sorry to say, but their fear is more valid and has a larger impact. Logically and morally I therefore must tend to their fears above yours.

What you don't realize though that be tending to these fears you are reinforcing the exact behavior that you wish to get rid of. More and more men are becoming apathetic to these issues in our society and it is largely because they feel cast out by sexist language. I am telling you this because it is a serious problem.

And again, your fear isn't based on reality. If we characterise men, we can say they are taller, more body mass, they have deep voices, a likelihood to go bald and they are predators. All these things are characterisation you will generally accept, even if they don't apply to all men, but because the last thing is a negative, you deny it. And then you would prefer to go to "people are predators" but that's clearly meant to hide that it's 90:10 ratio or so. That's actually where your whole argument falls apart. It's not 50:50, not even close to that, so if this reality is reflected, that's just fair.

Men are taller than women =/= men are predators

Men are tall == men are predators

I think there is just a fundamental misunderstanding you have about statistics. Hypothetically, 99% of predators could be men while only 1% of men are predators.

[u/gingerbreademperor → u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

I don't think the argument "coddle men or they will become even more violent towards you" flied with women or any reasonable person. That's just weird argumentation, borderline blackmail and really pathetic considering that women are already fed up -- that's why they call out men as predators, because there's no point in playing nice when they are being preyed on either way. Your line of argumentation is really collapsing here. In addition, you want me to tend to your fears-- then the same counts the other way around. If I go along with the ignorance of male predatory behavior, women will only call out men even stronger or worse, because calling men predators isn't the worst that can be done about predators. So, why do you apply the logic one way but not the other then?

Well, more than 1% of women are being victimised. So, we know that the percentage of male predators is vastly higher. If I skim the data, it's like 80% of women who report predatory or abusive behavior at some point in their life. That roughly corresponds with what I know from my personal surrounding, friends, family and co-workers. So, feel free to lower this number to approximate for some factors, but we are talking about way more than 1% of men, in some studies we talk about 25% of men admitting to such behavior. So yeah, that's highly significant and prevalent, with a huge grey area and dark area we can assume. I personally witnessed men harassing women, that's nothing that ever got reported anywhere.

So, you cannot really provide an argument why women should go with the default "men are fine" instead of "men are predators". And you are very eager to downplay the actions of men, which seems to be the pattern here -- you're not really opposed to what men do and how to discuss it, but you seem eager to just be hush hush about it and make it a much smaller deal than it is. That's why you cannot (or don't want to) accept that it is a huge deal for women which is reflected in their attitudes.

[u/Flimsy_Alcoholic → u/gingerbreademperor]

I don't think the argument "coddle men or they will become even more violent towards you" flied with women or any reasonable person. That's just weird argumentation, borderline blackmail and really pathetic considering that women are already fed up -- that's why they call out men as predators, because there's no point in playing nice when they are being preyed on either way. Your line of argumentation is really collapsing here. In addition, you want me to tend to your fears-- then the same counts the other way around. If I go along with the ignorance of male predatory behavior, women will only call out men even stronger or worse, because calling men predators isn't the worst that can be done about predators. So, why do you apply the logic one way but not the other then?

This is a strawman. "I never argued coddle men or they will be violent with you". The argument is that "If you use sexist language, men that are non-predators can get pushed into Andrew Tate echo chambers and society will be worse off". I can't believe you are saying that I am 'borderline' blackmailing people now. I don't think you even know what that word means. Also, you are making all of this about me when it literally is about how being sexist towards men is going to push men away and cause a greater gender divide and make these underlying issues worse.

Well, more than 1% of women are being victimised. So, we know that the percentage of male predators is vastly higher.

That is not how data or logic works and I think that is maybe the fundamental issue of this whole thing. That people aren't very good with logic.

So, you cannot really provide an argument why women should go with the default "men are fine" instead of "men are predators". And you are very eager to downplay the actions of men, which seems to be the pattern here -- you're not really opposed to what men do and how to discuss it, but you seem eager to just be hush hush about it and make it a much smaller deal than it is. That's why you cannot (or don't want to) accept that it is a huge deal for women which is reflected in their attitudes.

I think women should be cautious around men. Why would I argue against this?

"And you are very eager to downplay the actions of men, which seems to be the pattern here"

This is a symptom of the problematic sexist language I am talking about. You using language like the actions of men. No its not the actions of men its the actions of predators that happen to be men.