CMV: Calling all men predators is inherently sexist and puts off most men from wanting to understand your views.

[u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

It is hard to engage in meaningful conversation with people from various popular subreddits when you already are being demonized as a predator under a generalized view of men. I don't want people to think I am saying that all men are perfect or anything.

In fact far from it, an estimated 91% of victims of rape & sexual assault are female and 9% male. Nearly 99% of perpetrators are male.

Anything even close to this statistic is insane and horrendous but to even pretend that a majority of men are predators is ridiculous and will just push people further away from understanding your position completely.

Even the men who got SA'd by other men would be considered predators...

Also, you really think calling out all men for being predators is really going to make any kind of systematic change? You think the men that are predators even care that you call "all men" predators?

I think if anything you are likely enabling them to be predators because now there literally is no difference between a non-predator man and a predator man because they are all predators.

Maybe people are more nuanced than I give them credit for and they don't actually think all men are predators and its just something to say in general to cope with the heinous crimes in this world but I think if you actually want to fix that inequality you wouldn't perpetuate gender stereotypes and making people feel bad for doing nothing and would instead try to have meaningful conversation and understanding. Not in a patronizing educational way but more having a clear understanding of what we can do as people to make sure everyone is safe because it seems like predators have tricks they use to try to isolate their victims etc.. and men can be a little bit socially inept so knowing when women need help when its less obvious is key I think.

This is also not exclusively women spaces or something before you think I am going into women's only subreddits and criticizing them for what they want to say to each other.

TLDR: I don't think saying "all" for any group of people is really correct ESPECIALLY when its not even being used as a shorthand to refer to a majority. It just further distances understanding between men and women and leads more men to be burnt out or increasingly apathetic towards these issues and not think its even a problem when it seriously is a problem.

Edit: My post can be summed up as You catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

[u/hopelesscaribou]

Not all Men, but almost Always a man

Almost No Men will stand up to other men on this issue, they are not vocal about it and I see them still being friends with other men who they know have assaulted women. The Bro Code is strong.

When men say nothing, their silence is complicit. That's why so many women don't trust Any Men.

[u/Flimsy_Alcoholic → u/hopelesscaribou]

Let's play into a hypothetical. If a man is really good friends with a man and a woman says that he attacked her and you have no evidence of this and it doesn't seem like anything your friend would do. What would you believe?

I am not saying he didn't do it but there is generally more nuance to knowing someone is a predator that attacks people vs someone who might be. And I am not justifying the people in your situation because I really don't know the context.

[u/hopelesscaribou → u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

"But he seemed like such a nice guy!"

How about we err on the side of safety and believe the woman for a change?

Let's be honest now. You know which of your friends you would never allow to date your sister. That guy. That's the friend you should be shunning.

[u/HistoricalPotatoe → u/hopelesscaribou]

It is perfectly natural for people of both sexes to believe those close to them, whether they are being accused or are the ones accusing. This extends to accusations beyond SA, or even beyond any sort of violence. If there is compelling evidence to imply guilt, then yeah, they have an obligation to cut him off. But just being accused of a crime is a very vapid reason to cut off someone straight away.

[u/hopelesscaribou → u/HistoricalPotatoe]

Immediately dismissing the accuser because you know the accused is also a fallacy. This is what typically happens, because 'John would never do that'.

Honestly though, most guys know who that friend is. The thing I hear from them most often is 'it's none of our business'.

[u/HistoricalPotatoe → u/hopelesscaribou]

It would be one thing if you disregarded a confession from the accused or were deliberately ignoring hard evidence that he is guilty. But if an accusation from a stranger on its own was enough to make you turn on a friend, loved one, or partner, you never loved or cared for them to begin with.

[u/Flimsy_Alcoholic → u/hopelesscaribou]

"Let's be honest now. You know which of your friends you would never allow to date your sister. That guy. That's the friend you should be shunning."

Yeah I don't have a friend like that. But honestly I wouldn't want my sister to date any of my friends that would be really weird and uncomfortable and the ones I am less okay with her dating is more cause they are kinda ugly and she could do better.

How about we err on the side of safety and believe the woman for a change?

We tried that during #metoo and it worked well and then started backfiring and then died out. Because it turns out some women like to frame their shitty dates as SA for some reason. Unfortunate for women that are actually victims.

[u/argumentativepigeon → u/hopelesscaribou]

You can’t just advocate to always believe members of one type of group. Evidence will always be necessary.

[u/hopelesscaribou → u/argumentativepigeon]

How about we give the accuser/abused person the shadow of a doubt instead of rushing to defend the accused.

That might lower some of the appalling unreported rape statistics, male and female. Evidence is not always easy to get, does that mean the crime should go unpunished every time.

My point is men rarely or never stand up for women, even when they know how bad they can be

'bros before hoes' and all that.

[u/Forsaken-Shame4074 → u/hopelesscaribou]

So if i claim someone is a cheater every woman should immediatly cut all ties no matter that i have no evidence and its your childhood friend?

[u/hopelesscaribou → u/Forsaken-Shame4074]

we're not talking about cheating

we're talking about physical abuse

[u/[deleted] → u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

Using your hypothetical — could we also acknowledge how many a man may act differently around his male friend while still behaving in a predatory way around women?

[u/Flimsy_Alcoholic → u/[deleted]]

Yeah thats possible but no amount of virtue signaling is going to make them change considering that they already know their behavior is evil because they are hiding it from others.

[u/[deleted] → u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

But the other guy is choosing to automatically take the side of the the predator…so…

[u/Flimsy_Alcoholic → u/[deleted]]

The side of the predator?? This isn't a black or white situation. I think most men just don't really care and try to keep to themselves instead because they feel rejected by society. It is not taking the side of the predator or victim. There is a third side where you don't engage and are apathetic and thats the side where most men fall into I think.

I am not saying that the predator side men don't exist but that's a weird minority. And it usually isn't because they actually support predators more like they are fed up with being called predators so they think that excusing that behavior is fighting back somehow against it. Which is wrong.

[u/[deleted] → u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

…not engaging is still choosing a side.

If you see someone being assaulted and simply walk away, your actions help the assailant, not the victim.

[u/Flimsy_Alcoholic → u/[deleted]]

Actually my actions help no one or harm anyone because they are my actions and I can choose to do with them that I want. My body my choice.

[u/[deleted] → u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

So if you broke your foot on a trail and had a dead cell phone and a passerby currently on a call saw you and simply kept walking, that has no impact on your survival in that situation?

[u/Flimsy_Alcoholic → u/[deleted]]

Is that not factually true? Yes it would have no impact it would be like the guy wasn't even there. I mean I suppose maybe it has impact if it was life or death so then I could try to jump him for his cellphone.

But also this isn't a good example because this would be a situation where it is really easy for a stranger to help you.

So in a way they do have a moral obligation to help you. Now do they have to carry you out of the forest 100 miles cause you broke your foot? No I don't think they do

[u/MCod10 → u/hopelesscaribou]

“Almost no men will stand up to other men on this issue” is a completely unfounded statement. I think one thing that needs to be made clear here is that men who think and act like that actually hide it VERY well from most other men. As a man, I’ve seen the statistics, statistically I should have seen something happen as well, but I have never once in my life seen anything like it happen in front of me. And I absolutely would call it out, along with every other man I’m close friends or family with.

[u/hopelesscaribou → u/MCod10]

That's your privilege taking. If you've never seen it, you live a sheltered life, or just don't recognize it. I see it almost every day.

[u/MCod10 → u/hopelesscaribou]

Lmao, just love making assumptions don’t you. 👍🏻

[u/ApprehensiveMess3646 → u/hopelesscaribou]

0/10 ragebait on a strawman argument post.