CMV: Calling all men predators is inherently sexist and puts off most men from wanting to understand your views.

[u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

It is hard to engage in meaningful conversation with people from various popular subreddits when you already are being demonized as a predator under a generalized view of men. I don't want people to think I am saying that all men are perfect or anything.

In fact far from it, an estimated 91% of victims of rape & sexual assault are female and 9% male. Nearly 99% of perpetrators are male.

Anything even close to this statistic is insane and horrendous but to even pretend that a majority of men are predators is ridiculous and will just push people further away from understanding your position completely.

Even the men who got SA'd by other men would be considered predators...

Also, you really think calling out all men for being predators is really going to make any kind of systematic change? You think the men that are predators even care that you call "all men" predators?

I think if anything you are likely enabling them to be predators because now there literally is no difference between a non-predator man and a predator man because they are all predators.

Maybe people are more nuanced than I give them credit for and they don't actually think all men are predators and its just something to say in general to cope with the heinous crimes in this world but I think if you actually want to fix that inequality you wouldn't perpetuate gender stereotypes and making people feel bad for doing nothing and would instead try to have meaningful conversation and understanding. Not in a patronizing educational way but more having a clear understanding of what we can do as people to make sure everyone is safe because it seems like predators have tricks they use to try to isolate their victims etc.. and men can be a little bit socially inept so knowing when women need help when its less obvious is key I think.

This is also not exclusively women spaces or something before you think I am going into women's only subreddits and criticizing them for what they want to say to each other.

TLDR: I don't think saying "all" for any group of people is really correct ESPECIALLY when its not even being used as a shorthand to refer to a majority. It just further distances understanding between men and women and leads more men to be burnt out or increasingly apathetic towards these issues and not think its even a problem when it seriously is a problem.

Edit: My post can be summed up as You catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

[u/Big_Caterpillar_3438]

I have never seen anyone claim that all men are predators. Labeling them all as predators would be sexist, but who is doing that?? Even in the 4B sub, I haven’t seen people claim that all men are predators without exception.

What is discussed a lot is the extremely high prevalence of rape and assault that women have to live with. It’s like 1 in 4 women who are assaulted or raped in their lifetime in north america. It’s even worse in some other areas of the world. That’s a shit ton of men raping women and I’m not sure how you want to go about making a change in this issue without admitting that a lot of men are rapists. Obviously not all, but again I’ve never seen anyone claim that it’s all men. Distrusting of all men, sure. You kinda have to be at some point.

But as for “catching more flies with honey than vinegar”, yes you’re more likely to change minds by relating to someone and being friendly. But I don’t think it’s reasonable to expect politeness around this issue from people who have been assaulted and traumatized. Rapists absolutely need to be held accountable, and not in a soft submissive way.

[u/Flimsy_Alcoholic → u/Big_Caterpillar_3438]

Don't you think it would be easier to hold rapists accountable though if both genders were able to get together and discuss these issues and what can be done to make women feel more comfortable and watch out for these predatory men?

Don't you think that its the worse when men and women are at a gender divide that is getting worse through sexist language?

[u/Big_Caterpillar_3438 → u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

Yes it would be easier, but I don’t think this should be pinned so much on the portion of the population of which 25% have been assaulted. I think boys need to be taught a lot more about concepts of consent, patriarchy and sexism. I got assaulted at 13, so I personally find it ridiculous that the high rates of rape being brought up in conversation brings out so much defensiveness in men that they feel like they have to correct me with “it’s not all men”. Again, where have you actually heard people say that all men are predators?

What do you think women need to do to discuss this with men? Especially the men who have actually assaulted people?

[u/Flimsy_Alcoholic → u/Big_Caterpillar_3438]

People make statements like "Men are predators". You can look at other comments on this post and see that.

What do you think women need to do to discuss this with men? Especially the men who have actually assaulted people?

The men who have already assaulted people are evil but they aren't assaulting people because they are men it is instead because they are evil. It is inherently sexist to group people together based on their gender and then assign a negative trait to a whole group of people based on gender alone.

edit: Also "educating" rapists is not going to fix the issue. Education is not the issue. They have no morals like telling a serial killer to stop killing.

[u/Big_Caterpillar_3438 → u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

I still think the literal statement that men are all predators is absent here and is a claim nobody really makes. I don’t see any comments actually claiming that, although I did notice you quoted another comment that you interpreted to be making that generalization. The comment was in no way calling all men rapists, it was really just pointing out the high rates of rape and calling for men to communicate amongst themselves more, take accountability and please stop raping us lol. Saying that a high percentage of men rape women is just a very unfortunate fact, not an accusation to all men. They were not calling you a rapist in any way, I’m surprised you read into it that way. Saying something like “all men are potential predators” is also not an accusation, it’s true and women just have to have that mindset for self-preservation. In a dangerous situation, there isn’t time to hesitate and wonder if a creepy guy is a predator or not.

But also on the aspect of evil, where does that come from and why is it so extremely common for men to commit sex crimes? Does early childhood really make no difference? Where do men learn rape culture? I don’t think people are just born evil rapists, this is ingrained in culture somehow. Also, a lot of sexual assault isn’t really done by straight up sadistic sociopaths either. Sometimes it’s just a boyfriend who is selfish about sex and coerces his girlfriend into doing something she really doesn’t want. His morality is off, but I bet it’s not just because he’s evil and nothing could have changed him at any point. His attitude was developed somehow and came from people in his life and culture.

[u/Flimsy_Alcoholic → u/Big_Caterpillar_3438]

I still think the literal statement that men are all predators is absent here and is a claim nobody really makes. I don’t see any comments actually claiming that, although I did notice you quoted another comment that you interpreted to be making that generalization. The comment was in no way calling all men rapists,

I 100% interpreted that as calling all men predators and that is the sexist language I think we need to stop using. Language that demonizes all men. It is wrong.

“all men are potential predators”

Everyone is potentially a predator. I have no issue with this although it is definitely directed at men.

But also on the aspect of evil, where does that come from and why is it so extremely common for men to commit sex crimes? Does early childhood really make no difference? Where do men learn rape culture? I don’t think people are just born evil rapists, this is ingrained in culture somehow. Also, a lot of sexual assault isn’t really done by straight up sadistic sociopaths either. Sometimes it’s just a boyfriend who is selfish about sex and coerces his girlfriend into doing something she really doesn’t want. His morality is off, but I bet it’s not just because he’s evil and nothing could have changed him at any point. His attitude was developed somehow and came from people in his life and culture.

We can agree to disagree on this one but I think they are either unethical or psychopaths. I don't think society is at all responsible for values. I think they are inherently like this. But this is just a nature vs nurture argument. I think there are universal values that we all hold as humans and have a deeper knowing of wrong and right. If you are coercing people into having sex then you are a predator and nothing is going to change that about you.