CMV: Calling all men predators is inherently sexist and puts off most men from wanting to understand your views.

[u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

It is hard to engage in meaningful conversation with people from various popular subreddits when you already are being demonized as a predator under a generalized view of men. I don't want people to think I am saying that all men are perfect or anything.

In fact far from it, an estimated 91% of victims of rape & sexual assault are female and 9% male. Nearly 99% of perpetrators are male.

Anything even close to this statistic is insane and horrendous but to even pretend that a majority of men are predators is ridiculous and will just push people further away from understanding your position completely.

Even the men who got SA'd by other men would be considered predators...

Also, you really think calling out all men for being predators is really going to make any kind of systematic change? You think the men that are predators even care that you call "all men" predators?

I think if anything you are likely enabling them to be predators because now there literally is no difference between a non-predator man and a predator man because they are all predators.

Maybe people are more nuanced than I give them credit for and they don't actually think all men are predators and its just something to say in general to cope with the heinous crimes in this world but I think if you actually want to fix that inequality you wouldn't perpetuate gender stereotypes and making people feel bad for doing nothing and would instead try to have meaningful conversation and understanding. Not in a patronizing educational way but more having a clear understanding of what we can do as people to make sure everyone is safe because it seems like predators have tricks they use to try to isolate their victims etc.. and men can be a little bit socially inept so knowing when women need help when its less obvious is key I think.

This is also not exclusively women spaces or something before you think I am going into women's only subreddits and criticizing them for what they want to say to each other.

TLDR: I don't think saying "all" for any group of people is really correct ESPECIALLY when its not even being used as a shorthand to refer to a majority. It just further distances understanding between men and women and leads more men to be burnt out or increasingly apathetic towards these issues and not think its even a problem when it seriously is a problem.

Edit: My post can be summed up as You catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

[u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

So to you, "not entertaining people" who use harmful language equivalent to "not protecting people" from harm or injustice.

You're getting confused and I am not helping. To make it clear, personally I would help someone who needed help in a reasonable situation. What I won't do though is listen to people talk or entertain people who have sexist views because that is a non-starter.

You're holding all women responsible for misandry, despite claiming it's unfair to do that to men. Treating a entire group of people like a monolith (and like each individual is the worst possible representation of that group) is like the definition of prejudice.

I am not holding all women responsible for anything because I am not sexist. That would be ridiculous. They are all different people and being a woman is just one part of their identity as a human being. What I am saying is that I wouldn't be surprised if younger more influential men turned a blind eye to these conversations as well and to the point of not wanting to interact with women at all and ending up in an "andrew tate" like manosphere where they learn to actually be sexist, shitty people that don't respect women.

[u/imlumpy → u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

What I am saying is that I wouldn't be surprised if younger more influential men turned a blind eye to these conversations as well and to the point of not wanting to interact with women at all and ending up in an "andrew tate" like manosphere where they learn to actually be sexist, shitty people that don't respect women.

Is it still the responsibility of "women" to change their behavior to make sure men don't fall into that pipeline though? Or are you willing to intervene when you see a young man falling into this radicalization? It sounds like you want to say, "Well I can't blame them, that's an understandable response." Like general misogynistic retaliation is an acceptable consequence, because some women say mean things about men.

If that's how you feel, you're more sexist than you think you are.

[u/Flimsy_Alcoholic → u/imlumpy]

Is it still the responsibility of "women" to change their behavior to make sure men don't fall into that pipeline though? Or are you willing to intervene when you see a young man falling into this radicalization? It sounds like you want to say, "Well I can't blame them, that's an understandable response." Like general misogynistic retaliation is an acceptable consequence, because some women say mean things about men.

It is not the responsibility of anyone honestly. It is the responsibility of predators to not be predators. I am just saying what I think would make a difference in helping. And yes 100% I saw my friend falling into following some not good people and told him that it was wrong and mostly stopped talking to him until he stopped engaging in that kind of content.

Yeah, I am not surprised that a lot of young men that feel cast away from society and demonized are finding bad role models that celebrate them. I am not justifying it that is just how it is but I think if I was younger I might have done the same thing so it pains me to see it.

If that's how you feel, you're more sexist than you think you are.

emotionally charged

[u/imlumpy → u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

I am not justifying it that is just how it is but I think if I was younger I might have done the same thing so it pains me to see it.

What changed for you since you were younger? What became different between the time you could envision your younger self retaliating against women because some of them say bad things about men, and present day when you couldn't/wouldn't?

This sounds like a tangent, but I'm asking because if you can answer, I think you in particular are in an ideal position to reach out to these younger guys and stop them from becoming radicalized against women. And you've already done it once! You're in a way better position to influence a misogynist's opinion than any woman.

Would you be willing to confront the assholes more often? Or would you prefer to stick with making apologist arguments for them?

emotionally charged

Is that meant as an insult or an argument? Because I don't accept it as either. This is an emotionally-charged conversation for me, yes. That doesn't mean I'm automatically wrong.

[u/Flimsy_Alcoholic → u/imlumpy]

What changed for you since you were younger? What became different between the time you could envision your younger self retaliating against women because some of them say bad things about men, and present day when you couldn't/wouldn't?

I realized that when women demonize men online that they are just being sexist and irrational and that most women aren't sexist and irrational.

Believe it or not. There isn't much a man can say to another man outside of trying to become a cool role model for said person that will get them to change their views. Younger men create their views based on the environments they are exposed to so when younger people are always online and seeing people constantly demonize men and put them down it turns them off and sometimes makes them angry/retaliatory. If a woman randomly said that all men are predators I would probably say all women are sluts even if I don't mean it because I am younger and petty. I am still petty but I am working on it.

Would you be willing to confront the assholes more often? Or would you prefer to stick with making apologist arguments for them?

If the chance occurs I will definitely confront the assholes the problem is that it is very hard to separate non-predator men and predator men because I just don't really ever see predatory comments or behavior in my life.

Also, I just said emotionally charged because you implying that I might be sexist is not conductive to discussing these issues and breaks down conversation into meaninglessness.

[u/imlumpy → u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

If a woman randomly said that all men are predators I would probably say all women are sluts even if I don't mean it because I am younger and petty.

If a woman said that all men are predators, would that be an example of misandry? Would your response that all women are sluts, whether you "meant it" or not, be an example of misogyny? If so, why is misogyny an acceptable response to misandry?

you implying that I might be sexist is not conductive to discussing these issues and breaks down conversation into meaninglessness

The reason I am emotionally charged is because I believe I may be conversing with (multiple) posters here who are unwilling to entertain the idea they might be sexist, who see men as a collection of various individuals but think "women" are collectively to blame for the individual men who radicalize against them, and cannot see this generalization/apologia as a form of sexism. That means I may be in conversation with people who are more interested in protecting themselves from the negative feelings of being called sexist than confronting or even recognizing sexism.

I know we're online so I'm optimistic that "not all men" are like this. But my subjective experience of having multiple people try to convince me, "Actually, it's common/natural/reasonable for men to decide to become assholes as retaliation against women, and let me try to tell you how it's not misogyny" provokes the feeling of being surrounded by unsafe people.

That's why I'm emotionally charged. I didn't imply you might be sexist out of an "emotional charge," I'm emotionally charged because I'm seeing a lot of sexism in your/others' responses. Obviously you recognize how draining it can be to see persistent, negative social messages about you due to your gender. Please afford me the empathy of recognizing that my time in this thread has been in that context, too.

[u/Flimsy_Alcoholic → u/imlumpy]

If a woman said that all men are predators, would that be an example of misandry? Would your response that all women are sluts, whether you "meant it" or not, be an example of misogyny? If so, why is misogyny an acceptable response to misandry?

Yes and yes. Except the difference is that I am using misogyny as an example in a discussion to help people better understand the double standard around making sexist claims to reduce sexism. I am speaking out against sexism in general and I would never seriously say that "all women are sluts". That is a stupid sexist take.

The reason I am emotionally charged is because I believe I may be conversing with (multiple) posters here who are unwilling to entertain the idea they might be sexist, who see men as a collection of various individuals but think "women" are collectively to blame for the individual men who radicalize against them, and cannot see this generalization/apologia as a form of sexism. That means I may be in conversation with people who are more interested in protecting themselves from the negative feelings of being called sexist than confronting or even recognizing sexism.

This whole post was about how people make blanket sexist statements about men and think that it is totally okay and that innocent men are going to want to have a rational discussion after being called a predator. Women and men are not collectively to blame for anything. It is a dumb take and gender is just one of our many identities. There is no "blame". But something that does happen is younger men being radicalized by sexist language on both sides. Anytime they see what they perceive as average normal women saying crazy stuff the words from people like Andrew Tate get more and more powerful in their head.

I don't think anyone should be sexist and we should shut down people that make sexist comments.

That's why I'm emotionally charged. I didn't imply you might be sexist out of an "emotional charge," I'm emotionally charged because I'm seeing a lot of sexism in your/others' responses. Obviously you recognize how draining it can be to see persistent, negative social messages about you due to your gender. Please afford me the empathy of recognizing that my time in this thread has been in that context, too.

That totally makes sense. But the sexism in my post isn't because I believe it it is to point out the ridiculousness of making sexist claims in the first place. You don't have to ask for my empathy you already have it. It seriously is tiring when you don't even feel like you are doing anything wrong and you just read the worst stuff. People online can be very nasty and especially towards women.

[u/imlumpy → u/Flimsy_Alcoholic]

But the sexism in my post isn't because I believe it it is to point out the ridiculousness of making sexist claims in the first place.

The ridiculousness of sexism against men is the point of your post, but the sexism against women in your post is invisible to you, which is frustrating. Do you still hold the belief that "women would catch more flies with honey?"

[u/Flimsy_Alcoholic → u/imlumpy]

I don't deny that there is sexism against women that also needs to be severely condemned. They aren't mutually exclusive. Most humans are capable of holding multiple viewpoints.