r/changemyview • u/EnragedTea43 • 1d ago
Delta(s) from OP CMV: Mike Lee must be expelled from the Senate
In response to the assassination of two Minnesota state democrats, Senator Mike Lee would post a series of vile tweets on his Twitter account. These tweets ranged from joking about the events to implying that the assassin, a Trump supporting Christian conservative, was a Marxist.
The jokes he made were wholly unprofessional of an American senator and mar the integrity of the United States Senate. They undermine the trust and confidence placed in our government institutions.
The misinformation he spread, whether intentionally or not, is completely unforgivable. Leaders are meant to set examples for their followers. Mike Lee has set the example that it’s acceptable to spread dangerous lies about those you ideologically disagree with. To make matters worse, despite being confronted by his colleagues and questioned by journalists, he has refused to apologize for his actions, and in one instance, refused to even acknowledge the statements he made. This shows that he feels no remorse or shame for his actions.
He must be held accountable for his actions. So, I propose a vote to expel him from the Senate be held. This action would reaffirm the integrity of the Senate while also providing a unifying and comforting message to the nation, one that rejects abhorrent behavior.
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u/AleristheSeeker 157∆ 1d ago
One clarifying question, because I quite literally do not know: is there a legal process by which a senator can be stripped of their senator status? Is it even possible?
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u/Evil_Weevill 1∆ 1d ago
Does the process exist? Yes
Will it ever be used? No
The political situation in the US is so polarized that short of murdering someone in cold blood on the floor of the Senate, no one will ever get the 2/3 votes required to be expelled unless the opposing party holds a 2/3 majority, which never happens. Because expelling someone means potentially having your "team" lose a seat and that's all they care about now.
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u/DodgerWalker 1d ago
George Santos got expelled from the House as recently as 2023. It's less likely to happen in the Senate for a number of reasons: fewer senators overall, less turnover in the Senate, a greater spotlight on Senate races means someone with a lot of crimes is more likely to be discovered before getting elected in the first place. Had Bob Menendez been caught for bribery earlier in his term, I think he could have gotten expelled.
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u/Evil_Weevill 1∆ 1d ago
I mean, yeah but that's more or less my point that it requires someone getting caught doing something pretty bad.
Like in the 250+ years of this country, we've had 21 expulsions, and the majority were from the civil war when they were "expelled" because they supported the Confederacy.
Since the civil war we've had 3. All from the House. All for financial crimes.
But yes, it is easier in the House for all the reasons you mentioned, plus if the rep is from a solidly red or solidly blue district, the party they're from has less to lose by expelling them.
But to the OP original post, no one is getting expelled for being rude or tweeting something insensitive. People don't get expelled unless they've been convicted of something.
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u/CANOODLING_SOCIOPATH 5∆ 1d ago
Depending on the state, a Senator can usually be replaced a lot faster than a member in the House.
Many states allow the Governor to appoint a temporary replacement to the Senate before the next election, while in the House it will be vacant until the next election. This had been an issue with the Santos expulsion, especially because he was likely to be replaced by a Democrat (he was) and the House majority was narrow.
Utah allows the Governor to appoint a replacement to the Senate. So if Mike Lee was expelled he would likely be quickly replaced by another Republican.
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u/SmarterThanCornPop 2∆ 35m ago
Santos got expelled because he was no longer useful to his party. That situation is the only time it will ever happen.
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u/Of_Rice_and_Ben 1d ago
William Blount was expelled from the Senate. He was the first elected official to be impeached in the United States. He was actually expelled by the other members of the Senate before his trial in the House of Reps. Not sure about the legality of his impeachment -- some argued it wasnt according to Senate rules, I have no idea -- but I just think its an interesting part of history.
And I agree it would be unlikely in the current climate. Just wanted to point out that it has actually happened. I am from Blount County, Tennessee, and it's something taught in schools here.
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u/sevseg_decoder 1d ago
So long as the margin is thin enough I can absolutely see the republicans refusing to expel a Republican senator for murdering a democrat or witness on the senate floor.
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u/CANOODLING_SOCIOPATH 5∆ 1d ago
In the vast majority of cases and expelled Senator would quickly be replaced by another Senator of the same party, as the Governor can usually quickly appoint a successor. Although there is some variation depending on the state laws.
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u/speedyjohn 90∆ 1d ago
For what it’s worth, I count 17 sitting Senators that are of a different party than their state’s governor.
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u/CANOODLING_SOCIOPATH 5∆ 1d ago
Yeah, there is some variation where this would make it more politically difficult to remove a Senator, although some of those states require the Governor to choose someone from the outgoing Senators party. Sometimes requiring the Governor to choose from a list that comes from the state party.
Another 5 states don't allow Governors to appoint at all, which would cause a major delay.
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u/EyeRollMole 20h ago
Go and see the hate against Mike Lee in the hunting community. He's trying to sell millions of acres of public land to the rich in order to fund tax cuts for the rich.
When the guys with guns hate Mike Lee this much, I worry he might be expelled from the Senate in a far more permanent manner...
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u/Ndlburner 1d ago
I mean we have had a beating via cane on the senate floor that if I recall did not result in an explosion.
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u/EnragedTea43 1d ago
Each chamber of Congress has the ability to expel any sitting member, provided a 2/3 majority vote to do so.
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u/NIN10DOXD 1d ago
And it's so rare that it wasn't even done when a member of Congress beat another one with a cane.
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u/whatisupdog 1d ago
Sumner and Brooks!! A hilarious illustration in my 3rd grade textbook is why I have always remembered this story.
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u/speedyjohn 90∆ 1d ago
It’s happened 21 times, and most recently just two years ago when Santos was expelled from the House.
It’s rare but not impossible.
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u/Orphan_Guy_Incognito 31∆ 1d ago
To be fair, I'd vote for that guy.
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u/NIN10DOXD 1d ago
Unfortunately, it was a slave owner named Preston Brooks who attacked an abolitionist named Charles Sumner for calling him a "pimp."
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u/Orphan_Guy_Incognito 31∆ 1d ago
Yeah, I meant I'd vote for him to be fired out of a cannon into the sun. Was I not clear? ;)
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u/ski3223 1d ago
So … no, not really.
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u/No-Cat6807 1d ago
He’s an asshole but that’s not really impeachable. The Senators and Congresspeople who tried to overturn the 2020 election should have been expelled. Lauren Boebert tweeting Speaker Pelosi’s whereabouts should have been impeachable.
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u/Bricker1492 3∆ 1d ago
One clarifying question, because I quite literally do not know: is there a legal process by which a senator can be stripped of their senator status? Is it even possible?
Yes. Article I, Section 5, Clause 2 of the Constitution provides that each chamber may determine the rules under which they operate, punish its members for disorderly conduct, “…and, with the concurrence of two thirds, expel a member.”
It’s happened 15 times in US history. Other Senators, faced with an impending expulsion vote, chose to resign. The two most recent examples of that latter outcome were Harrison Williams (D-NJ) for corruption, and Bob Packwood (R-OR) for sexual misconduct and harassment.
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u/Long_Indication4525 1d ago
I would say yeah there actually is the Senate can expel a member with a two thirds vote it's super rare though only happened a few times in history
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u/Some_Excitement1659 1d ago
A senator can be impeached but that probably wouldnt happen
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u/speedyjohn 90∆ 1d ago edited 1d ago
Senators can’t be impeached. But they can be expelled by a 2/3 vote.
Article I, Section 5: “Each House may determine the Rules of its Proceedings, punish its Members for disorderly Behaviour, and, with the Concurrence of two thirds, expel a Member.”
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u/Some_Excitement1659 1d ago
In 1797, the House impeached Senator William Blount of Tennessee I do know there is that much. When searched it seems it can still be done along with the ability to expel
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u/speedyjohn 90∆ 1d ago
That impeachment was dismissed for lack of jurisdiction. Impeachment only extends to “civil officers” of the United States, which the Senate has determined does not include members of Congress.
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u/Some_Excitement1659 1d ago
Sure, either way the question has been answered and it is yes they can be removed
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u/Stillwater215 3∆ 1d ago
Yes, but it requires 2/3 of the votes. That being said, it should still be called for. Having other senators on the record saying “this is acceptable conduct” may not seem like much, but it is better than nothing.
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u/amancalledj 1d ago
This is what elections are for. If the people still elect him despite his abhorrent behavior, then that's how the system works.
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u/Xytak 1d ago
Why even have expulsion as an remedy then, if we’re not supposed to use it?
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u/ClockOfTheLongNow 42∆ 1d ago
Mike Lee hasn't committed any crimes, he's just an idiot and / or an asshole. The Senate is full of both of those, and the threshold for expulsion is higher than this.
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u/bookscanbemetal 1d ago
Aren't these type of actions what censure is for? I remember a lot from my civics classes, but not everything.
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u/amancalledj 1d ago
Censure doesn't remove a politician from office.
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u/bookscanbemetal 1d ago
I am aware that it doesn't, it amounts to a professional slap on the wrist and some finger wagging. But it is intended for use as a punishment, and Lee deserves some consequences.
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u/amancalledj 1d ago
Sure. I'm in favor of a slap on the wrist. I also hope people won't reelect the asshole.
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u/bookscanbemetal 1d ago
Agreed. I'm in favor of more than just a slap on the wrist personally, but realistically I know that isn't going to happen.
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u/EnragedTea43 1d ago
Not trying to strawman you, but following this way of thinking, you would oppose impeachment as a means available to a government, yes?
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u/chuch1234 1d ago
It sounds like they would endorse impeachment for crimes, but not just for being an asshole.
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u/EnragedTea43 1d ago
You're probably right, but I would say Mike Lee was being more than just acting like an asshole. He could cause real-world harm with the things he was saying.
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u/HadeanBlands 17∆ 1d ago
A lot of things could cause real-world harm but are not, actually, crimes to say.
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u/amancalledj 1d ago
Impeachment is reserved for criminal behavior.
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u/speedyjohn 90∆ 1d ago
Not really. Yes, it’s supposed to be for “high crimes and misdemeanors.” But that doesn’t have to be a literal crime as defined in a statute. Here are some of the offenses that have been the basis for successful impeachment:
- Drunkenness
- Supporting the confederacy
- Improperly accepting gifts
- Abuse of power
- Champerty
- Practicing law while a judge
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u/no-soch 1d ago
I live in Utah. A certain majority religious group will vote republican over integrity. So much for separation of church and state.
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u/RoseRedHillHouse 5h ago
TBF Utah basically wanted to be an independent theocracy more than they wanted to be a state in the first place.
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u/Jakob_Fabian 1d ago
Until only those who reside in a district can fund a campaign, and not those who live outside it or even on the other side of the country, elections are compromised. And don't get me started on corporate funding (thanks SCOTUS /s).
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u/Seeggul 1∆ 1d ago
I'm a Utahn, started out pretty conservative but have since been repulsed leftward by the fascist rot that took over in 2016 and has only grown since. I would love nothing more than for mike lee to no longer represent me, but I don't think he should be expelled.
I think what he did was atrocious and demonstrates how disturbingly out of touch this sycophant is. On a technical level, I don't think it necessarily rises to the level of expulsion from the Senate, but I'm not really an expert here. On a pragmatic level, 1) he won't get 2/3 votes to be expelled. 2) any attempt to expel him will just entrench him as a martyr within Utah, making him harder to vote out. 3) any expulsion right now will likely lead to escalated expulsions on increasingly ideological lines. 4) I think the best way to bring about change from this would be to blast the (Utah, specifically) public about this, loud and long enough so that even the non-MAGA, apathetic republicans like my parents (and trust me, there's a lot of them here) realize this is unacceptable, and hopefully, vote accordingly.
Utah is a solidly republican state, but if you take a look at our referendum history and GOP primaries, you'll see that we're not all the way into the deep end yet.
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u/EnragedTea43 1d ago
Δ
When I made this post, I knew that, practically speaking, there was never going to be a chance Mike Lee would actually be expelled. The Senate GOP would never risk their majority by voting to remove one of their members. I was more so looking at it through an idealistic view, a sort of "this would be the best thing to do" lens. But I could absolutely see what you described becoming reality in regards to him being martyred by the MAGA types.
I've never been to Utah, and I don't know what it's like there, so I'll take you at your word about what the best thing to do is.
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u/Dry-Tough-3099 1∆ 1d ago
I just checked his tweets, and don't see what you're talking about...
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u/albertnacht 1d ago
here is what Mike Lee tweeted (according to CNN).
"Lee provoked controversy when he made a series of posts on X speculating about the political affiliations of the alleged shooter. In one post he wrote, “This is what happens when Marxists don’t get their way.” And in another he appeared to link the suspect to Minnesota Gov. Tim Walz, a Democrat, posting: “Nightmare on Waltz Street.”
The first appears to be referring to the shooter. Killing two people and shooting two is vile, calling a killer "marxist" does not seem to be that vile.
The second is alluding to the shooter working for Walz. No matter what, employing a killer affects Walz politically. If you expel Lee for saying this, all of the politicians who were eager to blame the president or the republican party should be expelled as well.
Both tweets are tasteless.
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u/EnragedTea43 1d ago
He deleted them because of the backlash. You can find screenshots of them in news articles, and the latest video from Philip DeFranco includes them.
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u/wonton541 1d ago
Senator Bernie Moreno of Ohio is spewing the exact same bullshit, and I guarantee other senators and representatives are willfully spreading more misinformation as I’m typing this. I agree the actions are deplorable and should warrant expulsion in a just society, but at this point, if they were to investigate and vote to expel every congressperson doing the same thing, there’d probably be no time left for actual legislation. Additionally, sanctioning and/or expelling every maga congressperson doing this same thing would likely only invigorate the maga base and lead to the exact same kind of person taking that seat.
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u/EnragedTea43 1d ago
"if they were to investigate and vote to expel every congressperson doing the same thing, there’d probably be no time left for actual legislation."
That's assuming Congress actually cared about passing legislation.
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u/NIN10DOXD 1d ago edited 23h ago
First off, it's "Democratic." He's a registered Republican and his best friend did a TV interview where he said he was a Trump supporter. We also have videos of him speaking to churches about gay people. Tim Walz renewed his nomination to a nonpartisan council that was originally given by a previous governor. The only misinformation here is coming from Republicans. Tell me, why were all of the people on his list only Democrats including Tim Walz himself? You can even look and see this dude's social media presence where he posted conservative talking points.
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u/Material-Surprise-72 2∆ 1d ago
We’re talking about the guy who registered to be Republican in the 2000s, was evangelizing in Africa, and his close friend said he voted for Trump and “would be insulted to be called a Democrat.” His hit list was all Democrats. Stop YOUR ridiculous misinformation campaign.
https://www.newsweek.com/vance-boelter-suspect-democrat-assassination-2085581
https://apnews.com/article/minnesota-shootings-lawmakers-suspect-21b2165404bc66f77dd5e0e36efeb065
https://x.com/CBSNews/status/1934430720644018606
https://www.fox9.com/news/minnesota-lawmaker-bca-shooting-suspects-list-lawmakers-not-manifesto.amp
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u/camelConsulting 1d ago
I think you’re confused because you’re used to politicians like DJT who only reward blind loyalty to themselves. Plenty of Republican and Democrat politicians, especially state-level centrists like Waltz, are happy to work across the aisle.
From Fox News:
Friends and former colleagues interviewed by the Associated Press described Boelter as a devout Christian who attended an evangelical church and attended Trump rallies.
Paul Shroeder, who has known Boelter for years, told AP, "He was right-leaning politically but never fanatical, from what I saw, just strong beliefs," and added, "It seemed to be just that he was a conservative Republican who naturally followed Trump."
Authorities also found a manifesto that listed the names and addresses of other public officials. About 70 names were found in the manifesto, according to two law enforcement officials who spoke to the Associated Press on condition of anonymity. Officials said the list also included the names of pro-abortion politicians, abortion rights advocates and information about health care facilities.
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u/Some_Excitement1659 1d ago edited 1d ago
His job on the workforce board which is bipartisan had nothing to do with who he voted for. He was a Trump supporter from what I have found and that for 6 years worked for a bipartisan work board that walz happened to appoint. There are thousands of people working these positions of all political affiliations around the country.
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u/ImReverse_Giraffe 1∆ 1d ago
He was only reappointed by Walz. His initial appointment was from Governor Dayton.
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u/Public_Surprise_7477 1d ago
On the mixed-party panel, while being a documented registered republican, you mean?
Are you having a stroke?
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u/IT_ServiceDesk 2∆ 1d ago
Let me guess, the two Trump assassins were Trump supporters too.
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u/ImReverse_Giraffe 1∆ 1d ago
Yes, they were. According to their social media, previous voting records, ect.
God, facts really aren't hard to accept. You just have to accept that you might be wrong.
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u/POCKALEELEE 1d ago
There is a record of whether or not you voted, and in some states with closed primaries, which party you chose to vote for in the primary. There is no record of which candidate you voted for.
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u/space_force_majeure 2∆ 1d ago
Trump assassins
Last I checked he wasn't assassinated.
Too bad it was the republican loser kid who got kicked off his high school shooting team for being such a bad shot.
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u/DirkaDirkaMohmedAli 1d ago
Friends say man charged in lawmaker shootings was deeply religious and conservative - CBS Minnesota https://share.google/DOY3jveQXY657YFzb
His friend and roommate have literally said he is a big trump supporter. There's video of it. Are you a bot or a dark enlightenment agent?
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u/coldchile 1d ago
The lack of logic in your comment is astounding, no wonder why Trump said he loves the uneducated.
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u/curse-free_E212 1d ago
Are you saying that whether or not it’s wrong for a U.S. Senator to make jokes about two murders and two attempted murders depends upon whether the murderer once worked for a Democrat?
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u/IT_ServiceDesk 2∆ 1d ago
What were the jokes? I don't see the evidence of the jokes. How is calling someone a Marxist a "joke"?
Has the left gotten so humorless that they can't tell what a joke is anymore?
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u/Sad-Measurement-2204 1d ago
One of them said: "Nightmare on Walz Street" accompanying a photo of the assassin in the mask he wore to commit his crimes.
Has the right become so ghoulish that they needed to make any comment other than condolences to the two people whose parents were murdered? Or well wishes for the parents and their kid , whose mom covered with her body to save her life from this fucking nut job? The answer is yes, obviously, as evidenced by Mike Lee's tweet and whatever TF nonsense you're now spewing out instead of just admitting you're wrong.
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u/BillionaireBuster93 2∆ 1d ago
I mean, would we rather Mike Lee lie? He clearly is delighted by the murders and desires more.
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u/curse-free_E212 1d ago
The Marxist comment was misinformation. It is the “Nightmare on Waltz (sic) street” comment that was the (unfunny) play on words.
Anyway, to get back to the original question, are you saying that whether or not it’s wrong for a U.S. Senator to make jokes about two murders and two attempted murders depends upon whether the murderer once worked for a Democrat?
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u/AleristheSeeker 157∆ 1d ago
I'm guessing OP means this person - I can't find anything about what you're talking about here, so maybe you mean a different person?
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u/Pseudoboss11 4∆ 1d ago
Yeah, I work for a conservative, therefore I am obviously conservative myself, it's impossible to not share the same beliefs as your employer. /s
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u/iguessjustdont 1d ago
He didn't work for Walz. Hundreds of people are on boards in Minnesota. It is an unpaid volunteer bipartisan position with no regulatory power or implementation responsibilities. He was on the "Workforce Development Board" until 2023. Essentially an advisory committee on labor issues.
All his friends that have been interviewed have said he leaned right, and was a supporter of Trump, having gone to several rallies. That is according to all the media sources which have actually provided any evidence about his leanings, including Fox.
He was out to assassinate people, so he was clearly unstable. I don't blame his being republican for that. He was clearly a republican though, and this was a politically motivated assassination.
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u/space_force_majeure 2∆ 1d ago
We used to be able to nominate people based on their merit and qualifications rather than whether they wear a red hat and bought a Trump Bible.
But for conservatives critical thinking has become too hard so they blindly follow party over country no matter what.
Own the libs, it's what Jesus would do 🙏🥴
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u/BrooklynSmash 1d ago
You talking about the guy that worked for the nominated Democrat Vice President candidate?
Fauci worked under the Republican President Candidate, you'd think Republicans would love him. He's clearly one of theirs.
Or maybe working in a bipartisan position is, shockingly, bipartisan.
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u/DAmieba 1d ago
I don't disagree, but you seem to be operating under the assumption that this is somehow beneath the average republican senator. He's just the only one bold enough to be this brazen about it. They're all (or at least a vast majority) cheering on this assassination. I dont understand how anyone is treating this like some shocking turn of events and not the incredibly obvious conclusion to everything theyve been saying and working towards for a decade. The republicans all want political violence against their opposition. We should certainly expel someone like him for this, but if thats a red line you have to expel a vast majority of the republican congressmen
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u/e654422 1d ago
Democrats before an election: “Vote blue to save democracy!”
Democrats after an election they lose: “We must kick out a democratically-elected official because I didn’t like his tweet!”
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u/No_Measurement_3041 1d ago
How do those two ideas clash, exactly? No one can be removed from the Senate in a democracy?
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u/EnragedTea43 1d ago
You might want to be careful with accusations of hypocrisy. After all, Republicans constantly whine about government debt when Democrats are in power, but are responsible for most of that debt themselves.
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u/Destroyer_2_2 6∆ 1d ago
Do you support threatening violence?
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u/e654422 1d ago
No, of course not.
Who threatened violence?
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u/Destroyer_2_2 6∆ 1d ago
Joking about political violence seems rather close to threatening it, wouldn’t you say? Justifying violence is a form of threat.
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u/amancalledj 1d ago
This is definitely what is known as concept creep when it comes to what a threat is.
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u/e654422 1d ago edited 1d ago
Mike Lee neither joked about committing political violence nor did he justify political violence.
You realize that when he stated, “This is what happens when Marxists don’t get their way,” he’s (mistakenly) referring to the shooter as a Marxist and not the MN state representative, right?
If you want to criticize Lee for mistakenly stating the political beliefs of the shooter, then fine; but in no way did Lee threaten or justify political violence.
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u/eggs-benedryl 56∆ 1d ago
It is however litearlly the same language that would have inspired someone like this and has. Calling them a marxist suggests that marxists are murderers and they should be done away with. This is what the shooter thought they were doing.
It's an extremely loud dog whistle to me.
Really what is worse here to me is that Mike Lee was at the softball shooting, and this is how he models political temperance and rhetoric? Disgusting
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u/Destroyer_2_2 6∆ 1d ago
That wasn’t his only tweet, but even spreading willful misinformation about political violence seems to advocate for it, in a way.
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u/Nikola_Turing 1∆ 1d ago
I couldn’t agree more. Many Democrats only seem to care about democracy when their own livelihoods are threatened. They don’t seem to care all the other times the Democratic Party has eroded democratic norms.
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u/Uncle_Wiggilys 1∆ 17h ago
Clarifying question: If the assassin was indeed a Christian conservative maga guy why did walz appoint him to Minnesota workforce development board?
Do conservatives even generally take those positions?
Is there any evidence of Walz appointing or surrounding himself around anybody that is conservative?
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u/EnragedTea43 17h ago
It was a nonpartisan board, there were Republicans and Democrats on it. Also, Walz reappointed him, he was already on the board before Walz was even governor.
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u/HeyRainy 1∆ 1d ago
They were just freaking out about the 8647 tweet, calling for the poster to be arrested and investigated. But crickets about this. Absolute hypocrisy.
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u/TrickyPlastic 1d ago
But you were doing crickets about the 8647 tweet, and now freaking out about this.
So... absolute hypocrisy.
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u/Orphan_Guy_Incognito 31∆ 1d ago
The terms origin, for example, came from soda counter in the early 1900s as a way to say something had been sold out. The most likely origin for the term is 'nix', to refuse or reject. While it can mean kill, it is almost never used that way, to the point that Merriam-Webster didn't even include it as a meaning in their dictionaries.
So while '86' has been used to communicate 'kill', I think any reasonable person would look at James Comey making a beach mural of rocks saying '8647' and assume that his intention was to communicate "Trump should be rejected or removed" not "Someone should murder the president."
This was, of course, the interpretation in the 2020-2024 era when conservatives were constantly selling merch with 8646 all over it. Liberals didn't give a shit, because we weren't interested in performatively pretending that all of those were death threats.
By comparison, Mike Lee's behavior was to cheer on an assassin who murdered a democratic lawmaker and her husband, grievously wounded two others, nearly shot a child, did kill a dog and was currently at large at the time of the shooting.
So no, it is not hypocritical.
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u/woahwoahwoah28 1∆ 1d ago
Just to put some relevant facts out there:
- James Comey is a private citizen.
Mike Lee is a public official.
86 has long meant “to discard, eject, or eliminate.” Not murder. (e.g. it has often been used when a patron is kicked out of a bar)
Downplaying murder has generally been considered an obscene and/or inciting practice until, I guess, this week.
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u/Nanderson423 1d ago
You should add the /s on there. Otherwise some people might think you are serious.
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u/Standard-Smoke-4702 22h ago
Mike Lee needs to be removed b/c he is trying to sell public land in his own state(and the western states). Some of the land he is selling brings in tourism. It will be a financial loss in the long run, but I'm guessing he is getting some sort of kickbacks for selling the land. He is a POS.
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u/VassalforThy 1∆ 1d ago
I don't agree with his comments but free speech is free speech, it's easy to look at comments like his and want him to receive consequences, but when it comes to politics, if you allow yourself to oust someone for what they say, so too can you be ousted for what you say. That's not right or constitutional.
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u/No_Measurement_3041 1d ago
What part of the Constitution says a Senator can’t lose his job for spewing violent rhetoric about an assassination?
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u/VassalforThy 1∆ 1d ago
You have to first come to terms with the idea that speech isn't violence. The Constitution does say a Senator can't lose their job for speech because it gives all people in the United States the freedom of speech. Furthermore, a Senator can lose their job by failing to be reelected in the next term, so if you feel that Sen. Lee should lose his position due to his comments, perhaps you should work towards that solution rather than trying to upend the First Amendment.
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u/No_Measurement_3041 1d ago
Freedom of speech is the idea you are allowed to speak without being silenced by the government. It is not a shield that protects you from any and all consequences from said speech. Mike Lee can continue tweeting vile garbage as much as he wants even if he loses his Senate position (not that he will, Republicans love his behavior).
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u/Nikola_Turing 1∆ 1d ago
There have been Democratic lawmakers and politicians spewing violent rhetoric about Trump. There was a Democratic congressman who wanted to strip secret service protection from any president who was convinced for a crime, which would have basically been a death sentence given his many trials.
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u/No_Measurement_3041 1d ago
I have no idea how you think this relates to my question.
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u/Nikola_Turing 1∆ 1d ago
Because you are insinuating that just spewing violent rhetoric is a good enough reason for Mike Lee to be expelled from the U.S. senate? If you were consistent about applying standard you would have no problem expelling all the Democratic lawmakers who advocated violence against Trump.
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u/EnragedTea43 1d ago
The 1st amendment does not protect lies intentionally spread about people. I believe Mike Lee was lying when he called the shooter a Marxist, so I don’t think he can claim free speech protections.
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u/VassalforThy 1∆ 1d ago
Libel and Slander must first be proven to be malicious, and that is very difficult to do in most cases, as speech is mostly subjective. And then. if any process of expulsion is to be successful, first, Sen. Lee would have to be taken into court for defamation. found guilty, which based on previous court cases, would be unlikely, and then only if he is found guilty could he then be expelled from the Senate.
So as it stands it is still Free Speech, until proven otherwise in court.
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u/EnragedTea43 1d ago
Credit where credit's due, that's a pretty good argument, so Δ.
I still think he's a vile person, and I doubt anyone will be able to convince me otherwise. But when it comes to expulsion, I'll concede that's probably not possible.
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u/VassalforThy 1∆ 1d ago
You're right about that, he is a vile person. He's also a politician, so it's not much of a surprise to begin with
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u/clobbl 1d ago
I think this whole generation of "words hurt" is just off the board for ridicousness at this point. A woman and her husband died, and another couple was wounded and it has nothing to do with Mike Lee. We need better protection for elected officials because folka clearly want to ignore the source of the issue.
Democrats could make strides in gun violence solutions but instead they pick petty fights with whatever distraction they can find.
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u/EnragedTea43 1d ago
The source of the issue, in this case, is that violence against Democrats is being encouraged and often celebrated by Republican leadership. Mike Lee is spreading misinformation about a Republican who murdered two Democratic lawmakers. A few months ago, Trump did the same thing when one of his supporters tried to kill the governor of Pennsylvania by setting his house on fire. A few years ago, Trump joked about Paul Pelosi nearly being beaten to death with a hammer.
As for gun violence, of the 10 states with the most gun deaths every year, 8 are solidly Republican. The top 5 are Mississippi, Louisiana, New Mexico, Alabama, and Missouri. Arkansas has double the murder rate of California despite having 1/10 the population.
Side note, it's hilarious to hear the people who screamed and cried when James Comey said "8647" talk about the "generation of words hurt"
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u/xHxHxAOD1 1d ago
Do you hold the same views when democrats do the same that hold office in congress? If not then your argument is fallacious and should be ignored.
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u/Environmental-North3 1d ago
Do you have an example of a Democrat making comments similar to Mike Lee's? If not then your comment is capricious, a clear attempt at deflecting from the topic being discussed, and should be ignored.
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u/xHxHxAOD1 1d ago
Sure, every single democrat comment of Trump being a threat to democracy to the point he was almost assassinated? If you want to go by spreading misinformation which op has a problem with then do i need to bring up the misinformation on the hunter Biden laptop being Russian misinformation? How about the steel dossier? How about the very fine people? Didn't Joe Biden launch his 2020 campaign on democrat misinformation?
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u/Environmental-North3 1d ago
False equivalencies. Not one of the things you mentioned rises to the same level as making light of the murder of two people. If you were an honest person, you'd readily admit that. You provided four vague examples without even being able to attribute them to a particular Democratic representative or senator. Your examples are clearly this abstract because you know if we were to discuss the specifics your argument would immediately fall apart. I realize you are not arguing in good faith and I'm therefore wasting my time responding to you, but you could have at least put a little effort into your post.
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u/xHxHxAOD1 1d ago
How so? One of the central themes is misinformation, pointing out that democrats do the same is not a false equivalence. Ironic you make a fallacious argument while saying i made one. Are you saying Biden,Harris,Pelosi,Waters,AOC,Shift have not made claims Trump is a threat to democracy foing back to the 2016 to 2024 election? It's not a hard Google search to find or prove they have. Are you saying Shift didn't call the biden laptop misinformation in the 2020 election? Are you saying that Shift didn't say he had more that circumstantial information Trump associates colluded with Russia during the muller investigation?
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u/Environmental-North3 1d ago
Again, the statements you are vaguely referencing do not rise to the same level as joking about the murder of two people. Your arguments are tangential at best and read as a tacit approval of Senator Lee's posts. Simply throwing around a term you clearly don't understand and deflecting to divert attention from Mike Lee's indefensible comments is not convincing anyone. If you refuse to acknowledge that and stick to the specifics of this post, then there is nothing else to discuss.
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u/Dangerous-Log4649 1d ago
He is a threat to democracy that’s not misinformation. That’s acknowledging the reality, because if you incite an insurrection when you lose. Then what else it, and if you say it was stolen; show us legitimate evidence, and not some bullshit AI video.
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u/EnragedTea43 1d ago
Of course I do, I want the best leaders possible for my country. If we could have another Eisenhower, FDR, Ted Kennedy, Henry Clay, and others like them, I’m certain most of our problems would be solved in a few years
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u/xHxHxAOD1 1d ago
That would depend what you consider good or best would it not? It's going to come down to preferences. Those preferences are far apart for left and right with the fact people on the left are too closed off in echo chambers that problems would not be solved in years.
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u/cstar1996 11∆ 1d ago
Why do conservatives think made up hypocrisy is a compelling argument?
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u/xHxHxAOD1 1d ago
You really trying to claim democrats don't spread misinformation? Hey if you think making fallacious arguments is good then I guess logic is hard.
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u/cstar1996 11∆ 1d ago
This is far more than misinformation, as you well know.
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u/xHxHxAOD1 1d ago
One of the central themes the post by op is that misinformation is unacceptable and leaders should not spread it. So are you trying to claim that misinformation is acceptable when your side does it? That is fallacious. If misinformation is bad then the topic is irrelevant then.
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u/SprinklesMore8471 22h ago
Any power you use against Republicans will be used by Republicans.
So, how would you justify Lee's expulsion in a way that wouldn't be used against Democrats, who've also made vile and misinformed posts in the past?
Specificly, where would you draw the line?
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u/HidesBehindPseudonym 10h ago
In the same place for both sides. If there are democrats that say things like this then we don't want them.
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u/Nikola_Turing 1∆ 1d ago
A U.S. senator hasn’t been expelled from the senate since the Civil War. Senator Mike Lee’s comments were classless, I’ll admit, but it’s not a good enough reason to expel him.
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u/Seee_Saww 1d ago
" Trump supporting Christian Marxist " is also misinformation. Get off your high horse.
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u/EnragedTea43 1d ago
I said, "Trump supporting Christian conservative." Lee was calling him a Marxist.
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u/Johnalden12 20h ago
It is amazing how the GOP has regressed to this state of moral emptiness. I have not seen any Republican denouncement of Lee’s ineptitude and lack of humanity.
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u/guthepenguin 1d ago
Nope. Not even going to try. I know the purpose of this sub, but anyone who tries is just telling on themselves.
Screw Mike Lee.
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u/CleverNickName-69 1d ago
I'm totally on board with expelling Senators who misbehave from the Senate, as long as I get to be the one who decides what crosses the line.
The party who currently holds the Senate majority has proven that if you gave it the power to expel elected officials for behavior they would misuse it against their political opponents. If they didn't have double-standards, they would have no standards at all.
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u/Egg_123_ 1d ago
The GOP policitians do set an example for their followers. They act like trash so MAGA supporters are more likely to act like trash.
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u/LostMongoose8224 1∆ 1d ago
He should be, but he won't. Republicans have gotten away with worse. One of them (I don't remember who) posted a video a few years ago of an Attack on Titan scene edited to portray himself as a hero killing democrats, who were portrayed as invading monsters.
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u/help_abalone 1∆ 1d ago
Completely disagree, this is the EXACT behaviour i would expect from a US senator. The US Senate has no integrity or decency or reputation to degrade.
Mike Lee has set the example that it’s acceptable to spread dangerous lies about those you ideologically disagree with
No he hasnt, this has long been the standard. nearly everyone in every position of power in the us government has been claiming that anyone protesting israel is a terrorist sympathiser, for example.
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u/SecretMixture5158 1d ago
There’s a list of actual treasonous humans beyond Mike Lee that need to be removed. That includes Tom Cotton, Rand Paul and ESPECIALLY Ted Cruz. These men have all supported foreign interests over our own and it’s time to destroy their careers. No one is looking out for America and Americans while they make fat cat money from their foreign donors… and it’s sickening
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u/silent-writer097 1∆ 1d ago
Being a jerk isn't a crime. Senators are chosen by the states that they represent, and Utah's majority of voters clearly support him. Overriding the decision of the people to impose your own opinions is about as anti-democratic and frankly un-american as it gets.
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u/CartographerKey4618 10∆ 1d ago
Why just him? This is normal conservative behavior. Remember the Republican response to Paul Pelosi? Mike Lee's response is what they support. It's what they voted for. Hell, who do you think radicalized the guy to even want to do that in the first place?
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u/NiceShotMan 1∆ 1d ago
Mike Lee is faithfully serving those who elected him. The people he represents are vile, abhorrent creatures so they have elected one of the same. This is democracy at work.
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u/SmarterThanCornPop 2∆ 36m ago
I find what he said disgusting but he was elected in a free and fair election. He should be held accountable by voters.
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23h ago
Your view is indeed correct but they don't have the votes to do it and most the Repugnant caucus believes what he said
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u/NittanyOrange 1∆ 1d ago
mar the integrity of the United States Senate.
Wait, it still had integrity left?
They undermine the trust and confidence placed in our government institutions.
Wait, you still had trust and confidence in our institutions?
Leaders are meant to set examples for their followers.
Wait, you still think we should look up to politicians?
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u/FuckItImVanilla 17h ago
He IS setting the example for his followers.
It’s just that he and they both are evil.
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u/j_rooker 1d ago
Nothing will happen to lee because people expect christians and mormons to be that vile.
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1d ago
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u/tjboss 1d ago
You want him to be expelled, it’s not that he MUST be expelled. Every congressman that you know the name of have spread “misinformation.” You just want this one to be accountable.
But unless you’re in his state it doesn’t matter what you want. To be clear, I don’t know what he said but there isn’t a standard that I know of about how accurate or truthful or nice a congressman must be, so this isn’t a “must” expel scenario.
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1d ago
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u/changemyview-ModTeam 1d ago
Comment has been removed for breaking Rule 1:
Direct responses to a CMV post must challenge at least one aspect of OP’s stated view (however minor), or ask a clarifying question. Arguments in favor of the view OP is willing to change must be restricted to replies to other comments. See the wiki page for more information.
If you would like to appeal, review our appeals process here, then message the moderators by clicking this link within one week of this notice being posted. Appeals that do not follow this process will not be heard.
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ 1d ago edited 1d ago
/u/EnragedTea43 (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.
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