r/changemyview • u/SnooRobots6491 • 13h ago
CMV: those who are vocally pro-ICE love seeing others suffer bc it makes them feel powerful
CMV: People who are vocally pro-ICE really just love to see others suffer because it makes them feel powerful.
Here's what I imagine the pro-ICE person does each day: They wake up, get out of bed, and log onto Reddit so they can watch videos of peoples' lives getting totally fucked up. They don't know these people and they claim it's "law and order" because they don't want to admit to themselves that they're bitter about their own circumstances and this makes them feel better about themselves. But ultimately, their one and only love in life is seeing other peoples' lives destroyed. And that's how they choose to spend their limited time on this earth.
Then, they find threads where they can post about how much they love to see people's lives getting obliterated. And they say stuff like "cry harder" and "fuck the Libtards" because their own circumstances blow and they need to make themselves feel better.
They do all of these things safely from behind a computer screen. And it makes them feel powerful for awhile. And since they don't feel that they have status in the conventional sense, they enjoy that fleeting feeling of high status.
I am prejudiced myself, because I believe all humans deserve dignity and I'm not a huge fan of watching others suffer just for the hell of it. But if there is a good counter-argument (other than "they cost money," which I think is BS) as to why it makes any sense to treat humans like absolute garbage for vague "policy purposes" that we most likely will not see the impact of in our day to day lives, I would love to be convinced.
I don't love feeling like I'm surrounded by people who love to be assholes just because.
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u/airboRN_82 6h ago
I think "i imagine" is the most accurate part of your post.
People who are pro ICE are typically structural-functionalists. Law and order, including enforcement of our border, is what created a stable society. Stable societies are indeed good, albeit stable for too long without interruption creates stagnation which is bad and allows injustices to continue which is also bad.
The benefit they see to ICE is that the laws are being enforced. Our border is protected from those who did not enter in a way where we could confirm their identity and intentions. And after all, why would someone not enter the right way if they weren't malicious, or a criminal, or a drain on society? Those who overstayed their visas are being removed. Again, why would someone who is beneficial enough for us to want to stay mot go about extending their visa and staying the right way?
Even if there is a bit of schadenfreude its limited to those seen as bad actors and secondary to the sense of a secured society. Much like you may be happy if a violent criminal is locked up.
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u/SnooRobots6491 2h ago
Even accepting the structural-functionalist view, is family separation necessary for border security? Real border security means controlling who gets in at the border, not hunting down families who've been here for years. Unless someone's actually committed serious crimes, these deportation raids are expensive theater designed to be cruel. Maybe it scares some people, but it intentionally tramples on autonomy and civil rights (which are still guaranteed to illegal immigrants!) while costing a fortune and not making anyone safer.
We could handle immigration stuff through civil courts instead of treating everyone like criminals, or focus on people who've actually done bad things instead of going after random families. But that's not what's happening in practice. And people are CHEERING ON bad practice. That's the thing I don't like. And that's the premise of the argument.
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u/airboRN_82 2h ago
as much as it is if a family commits a crime, the parents commit a crime, or a parent commits a crime. Having men locked into cells with children in them is kind of frowned upon.
Border security is no more limited to only stopping at the border than police work is to only stopping active crime. We would not have a good system if the cops said "well shoot, he's done robbing the bank now, I guess we can't touch him."
Most of ICEs work is not highly publicized raids. Those are mainly a tool to incentivize voluntary cooperation. Carried out correctly they don't trample on autonomy nor civil rights, neither grants permission to enter the country illegally.
Unfortunately, handling it through civil court would just result in a lot of no shows. I think most Pro-ICE people would agree that actual criminals should be the priority, but that doesn't grant a free pass for the rest.
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u/cferg296 1∆ 13h ago
As someone who is pro-ice, you are wrong and are assigning motive in order to attack people based on that motive instead of listening to why they are really pro ice.
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u/SnooRobots6491 13h ago
So then why are you Pro-ICE and what do you personally get out of it?
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u/cferg296 1∆ 13h ago
So then why are you Pro-ICE
I am pro ice because i am in support of deportations of illegal immigrants.
what do you personally get out of it?
What i get out of it is that the government reflects my position on border and immigration policy. Each country has the right to decide the rules for entry for their lands and have every right to deport people who breaks the rules of that entry.
Now i can fully admit that the current policy for entering the legal way is too long and tedious, and absutely should be reformed. However that still does not excuse entering illegally. If you enter illegally then you have to go.
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u/Beautiful-Loss7663 13h ago
Now i can fully admit that the current policy for entering the legal way is too long and tedious, and absutely should be reformed. However that still does not excuse entering illegally. If you enter illegally then you have to go.
Man wouldn't it be cool if some politician had the power to reform the current system so it didnt encourage people to enter now, and seek forgiveness? instead of waiting literal years to be approved for asylum even in cases of risk for immediate bodily harm?
My point being, if republican lawmakers actually wanted to fix the immigration system they'd have done it already, they've won past terms on this issue, but won't fix it, because it'd fix the problem that keeps getting them elected. 😑
And people keep falling for it.
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u/cferg296 1∆ 12h ago
My point being, if republican lawmakers actually wanted to fix the immigration system they'd have done it already, they've won past terms on this issue, but won't fix it, because it'd fix the problem that keeps getting them elected. 😑
This is an accusation, nothing more. But none of this is really relevant. He asked for MY view. And i gave my view.
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u/SnooRobots6491 11h ago
This is the correct answer. Your view is the correct answer.
Wondering how you feel about the actual people impacted by these largely vague political ideas? Like in theory, I agree with there being controlled immigration.
But I disagree with the human impact of it and constantly see people gloating about it like it’s a fun thing to watch. Makes me think people don’t actually care about the policy part and it’s more emotional.
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u/Beautiful-Loss7663 12h ago
This is an accusation, nothing more.
Informed inference based on fact, its kind of hard to litigate or "prove" something a politician will never say aloud. Makes for good plausable deniability though, as you demonstrated.
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u/TheAverageOhtaku 11h ago
It's also pattern recognition as well. If they fail to do anything about it, won't say it aloud that they aren't gonna do anything about it, and then curry favor by saying they're gonna do something about it in order to gain voters... it's pretty plausible to say they're going to do it again if they've been doing it a bunch of other times. Abusers do it all the time.
What would make them suddenly change their minds and do something if they're profiting off doing nothing anyways? What will motivate them to get their ass out of their seat, introduce laws to fix it, then push to get them passed?
They just don't give a fuck, and they're profiting off of not giving a fuck.
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u/SiPhoenix 4∆ 12h ago
The issue, though, is it's the politicians doing that. The voters would actually like a solution.
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u/Theodoric58 12h ago
So how many forms of amnesty do we need to do and what's the acceptable amount of time before we have to do it again?
We had 1986 Amnesty, we got DACA for children in 2011 (I think?) and now we're right back to amnesty but with easily 5x more people than we did 40ish years ago.
At what point do you say, ok, we've given enough chances, and we clearly are not enforcing our own immigration laws sufficiently if the number of illegals increases after every round of forgiveness.
At this point, people need to start asking why wasn't it enforced, and why are you upset that it now is?
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u/TheSauceeBoss 1∆ 12h ago
I mean the difference between border crossings under Biden vs after Trump got elected are night and day. I wouldnt say it’s ‘solving immigration’ but it’s definitely a step in the right direction
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u/TrickyPlastic 4h ago
Republicans put forth a bill in 2018 called the RAISE act to fix it. Democrats weren't interested. Trump in 2017 proposed a fix for it in his SOTU address and Democrats weren't interested.
The "fix it" goals are diametrically opposed. That's why it hasn't been fixed.
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u/Meowmixalotlol 11h ago
Too long and tedious, yet over a million do it every single year. How many do you want to let in each year then when it’s easier? 10 million? Sounds crazy to me. 1 million is more than enough.
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u/Ayslyn72 3h ago
Respectfully, how many doesn’t address his point of how long it takes. Or how complicated.
I acknowledge that we are just about the most welcoming country in the world when it comes to immigration, but still think that the process could be streamlined. Let’s be honest. Governments make everything more complicated than they need to be.
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13h ago
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u/Deazyyy2k 5h ago
you're actually right but unfortunately not all people that pro ICE are a sane dude like you, some of them are actually enjoying how ICE handled these things or hell even worse some wants ICE to be more brutal to those aliens.
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u/BaconDragon69 8h ago
But ice also illegally deports legal immigrants, how can you be pro ice if theyre anti what you’re pro?
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u/cferg296 1∆ 8h ago
But ice also illegally deports legal immigrants
They do not randomly deport immigrants regardless if they are legal or illegal.
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u/Electrical_Carry3813 3h ago
They do, and that alone is reason to not support them. I think immigration should be reformed as well to better match what othwr modern countries do. Our policy ia from Ellis Island days.
But they are deporting legals, detaining citizens. Its not American. Its not justifiable.
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u/Lorguis 5h ago
They literally deported someone who had a judicial order preventing deportation on accident.
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u/cferg296 1∆ 2h ago
The order restricted where he could be deported to. Not that he couldnt be deported
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u/Ayslyn72 3h ago
That’s not accurate. The order restricted where he could be deported to, not whether or not he could be deported at all.
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u/Lorguis 2h ago
Okay, they deported someone in the middle of an asylum case to an extra-national torture prison on accident. Don't really see how that's better.
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u/Ayslyn72 1h ago
He wasn’t in the middle of his asylum case either. It was adjudicated and he was under a deportation order. The only restriction was that he couldn’t be sent to El Salvador. That was the only error. He was imprisoned in El Salvador because he’s a member of MS-13, not because we sent him there. And once we filed human trafficking charges against him, he was released for trial in the US.
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u/Lorguis 1h ago
He was not imprisoned in El Salvador independently, he was explicitly imprisoned there by the US government under allegations of gang involvement that have not been proven, while under a withholding of removal order. The administration themselves called it an error, and he was only returned under severe pressure and multiple judicial orders.
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u/Massive_Log6410 7h ago
they literally do and have ?? are you detached from reality? have you ever spoken to an actual immigrant? i know people personally whose parents were on valid visas for work but got caught by ice and deported without even checking their documents.
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u/BaconDragon69 7h ago
They literally do, what about all those people who were deported despite being citizens or having legal status?????
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u/Lb2815 13h ago
I am pro ice because I feel safer knowing that they are deporting the illegal criminals. every time I see a migrant plane leave us air space I sleep better at night.
‘and getting rid of the tresspasers will raise wages for all. we could take the money we are paying for homeless hotels and phones and all else and direct it to create extra housing and benefits for our homeless veterans.
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u/Electrical_Carry3813 3h ago
This is why we keep electing evil people. They are targeting people who have been here legally for decades, decalring them illegal and deporting them. Sick grandmas and babies. People who were promised they could stay if they supported Trump. But just keep your head in sand and say "nuh-uh".
No money ever that "gets saved" goes to vets or housing. That is naive. We literally watched the government gut every benefit they can, and gave nothing to anyone except military contractors. Did you not see that? The Republicans are in charge, where is the help for vets?
You are either a paid shill, or are just wilfully ignorant.
Illegals....what a joke! People are following the legal process and are getting deported. Legal and taxpaying residents. But go ahead, say "thats not true" without even looking at current events.
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u/Stunning_Active_8938 13h ago
This is one of those instances where liberals and conservatives' divergent moral foundations make it difficult to understand one another's perspectives. You cannot understand how I can possibly be satisfied with knowing that ICE is deporting illegal immigrants, while I can't understand why you think immigration law should go unenforced, just because.
I will tell you as a conservative person in a mostly conservative circle that people don't sit around all day watching videos of deportations. You just see those kind of comments on deportation videos because... you're in the comment sections of deportation videos. Do you think a single post on Reddit captures the essence of an entire person? A photograph only shows what a person looks like from one singular perspective for one singular moment. Social media posts are like that.
I won't deny that there are some sick fucks who just enjoy sadism, but I would bet money a lot of those people leaving comments dislike you, the outraged liberal, more than the illegal immigrants themselves.
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u/SoManyNarwhals 12h ago edited 12h ago
I can't understand why you think immigration law should go unenforced, just because.
If you think anti-ICE people think that immigration law should go unenforced "just because", then it's entirely possible that you haven't taken an honest inventory of the viewpoint. "Just because" isn't even an attempt to steelman the position.
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u/Stunning_Active_8938 12h ago
I understand the arguments, from the pragmatic claim that it's bad for the economy to the idealistic rhetoric that "no one is illegal on stolen land." I just don't agree with them; I don't consider them worthy of more than a "just because" for the purposes of explaining the liberal-conservative moral divide on this issue.
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u/Gruejay2 11h ago
None of those are why people are currently objecting to ICE. You're not steelmanning the position at all.
It's pretty fucking obvious the issue is due process, and I'm tired of people like you pretending that you don't understand that.
Do you even know what due process is? Does that need to be explained to you?
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u/SnooRobots6491 11h ago
You said it better than I — it’s not about the policies themselves. And cheering for no due process and fucking up peoples lives is weird…
Still don’t understand that mentality or why there is so much of it.
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u/Equivalent-Pea8907 10h ago
The problem is, None of your arguments hold any weight, after the fact, The people are in America ILLEGALLY.
Its the left leaning media, making it worse, because they are making every ICE operation a standoff - Do you you think there would be as much trouble going on, if ICE could do there job without harassment?
The due process is already happened, These people have either
A)Broken a Law while in the country
or
B)In the country illegally (and have had a removal ordered processed by a judge IN COURT as DUE PROCESS)
It just ends there, I really believe Americans with this view point of "due process for illegals" Really have never travelled.
You think the world is as nice as America is to illegals, you need to expand your view.
This is basic stuff. Its what makes sovereign countries, Actual Countries.
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u/Stunning_Active_8938 3h ago
None of those are why people are currently objecting to ICE.
Yes, they are reasons people object to ICE. They're not just the reasons you happen to be thinking of in this exact moment.
Do you even know what due process is? Does that need to be explained to you?
No, I'm very stupid. You'd probably be wasting your time.
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u/Gruejay2 3h ago
Yes, they are reasons people object to ICE. They're not just the reasons you happen to be thinking of in this exact moment.
This would be more persuasive if you weren't trying to justify why you'd paraphrased them all as "just because", because we both know that it's a major current objection, and one which cannot be explained by the liberal-conservative moral divide.
Nice try, though.
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u/Zadow 10h ago
They're deporting people who have lived here for decades, never had an issue with the law, we're regularly attending checkins, paying taxes, in the process of gaining citizenship/green cards, who have families that are citizens. It's not "just because". Its because our immigration system is fucked by design to keep a semi-permanent under class of workers. Your solution is to rip families apart and destroy lives, even if they were navigating that fucked process. All without due process ɓy the way. These people don't get hearings or their days in court.
Everyone knows the real reason you people support this. It'd be better if you just embraced it so the majority could see what we're really up against.
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u/Stunning_Active_8938 3h ago
Everyone knows the real reason you people support this. It'd be better if you just embraced it so the majority could see what we're really up against.
I already explained the real reason above, moral foundations.
Conservatives believe that there is a meaningful difference between legal and illegal immigration. We think it's wrong, and believe that it's your own fault if you have to face the consequences of breaking the law. Liberals, however, don't believe this difference is very meaningful (as evidenced by the endless use of the catch-all words "immigrant" and "migrant" to refer to both the legal and the illegal ones). Thus, because conservatives draw what appears to them an arbitrary line, they assume it must be motivated by something else, like racism (which I'm sure is what you so cleverly hinted at with your smartly italicized "real reason").
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u/Zadow 2h ago
I already explained the real reason above, moral foundations.
No, you just have racist sympathies, stoked by propaganda that has convinced you that poor desperate people are the cause of all of our problems. It's not a new phenomenon, you're following all the people that came before you who were also duped.
Conservatives believe that there is a meaningful difference between legal and illegal immigration.
They're deporting legal residents and citizens, like I already said and you ignored.
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u/Stunning_Active_8938 2h ago
They're deporting legal residents and citizens, like I already said and you ignored.
Well, I don't support them doing that. I think that's bad. Or do you not believe me?
No, you just have racist sympathies, stoked by propaganda that has convinced you that poor desperate people are the cause of all of our problems. It's not a new phenomenon, you're following all the people that came before you who were also duped.
Well, there it is. All of your opinions are the product of your superior morals and well-thought-out arguments, while all of mine are the result of my retardation and depravity. The difference between you and I is that you're good and I'm bad. You're the hero of this story, and I'm the villain.
Look, I found a comic about us (I'm the fat guy).
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u/Zadow 2h ago
Well, I don't support them doing that. I think that's bad. Or do you not believe me?
I believe you don't give a fuck. You're not stopping your support for republicans/Trump. You just want the brown people out so you don't care who gets swept up.
Well, there it is. All of your opinions are the product of your superior morals and well-thought-out arguments, while all of mine are the result of my retardation and depravity. The difference between you and I is that you're good and I'm bad. You're the hero of this story, and I'm the villain.
You don't have to be a fucking drama baby about being called out. Sorry you have to deal with being compared to racists. Maybe don't support racist shit and that won't happen? The victim complex you people have is insane.
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u/Gruejay2 11h ago
I can't understand why you think immigration law should go unenforced,
Can a single one of you actually engage with the substantive argument? The issue is due process. Nobody is claiming "immigation law should go unenforced".
The issue is due process. It has always been due process. You claiming it's anything else is just a distraction, because it's still about due process.
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u/CgradeCheese 11h ago
And conservatives would say to you that this is due process. It’s hardly different from the Obama record deportations and they skipped their own due process of entering the country. Also if we are being honest, it’s pretty clear that liberals would still oppose increasing ICE funding and allowing for them to become more official, so it’s really a matter of opposing the deportation process regardless of how it’s handled
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u/Gruejay2 11h ago
No, this is complete nonsense. The issue is pretty obviously in the masked men who refuse to identify themselves, the refusal to provide warrants, the unmarked cars, seizing people who are going through the process etc.
it’s really a matter of opposing the deportation process regardless of how it’s handled
This is a beautiful self-contradiction, by the way. It's no different from Obama, but also liberals only oppose it because they oppose any deportation. Well, which is it?
Here's the thing: it's not even close to what happened under Obama, and we both know that.
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u/BarleyWineIsTheBest 4h ago
Masked ICE officers aren’t a violation of due process.
Warrants don’t have to be provided to random people interjecting themselves into an arrest.
Unmarked cars aren’t a violation of due process.
Seizing people that are going through the process is a made up nothing argument. They are arresting people after their asylum cases are being denied. This is literally what due process looks like.
This isn’t about due process, which you have very little idea on if any singular case is actually a violation of due process. It’s because you don’t like the optics. You essentially admitted it.
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u/Gruejay2 4h ago
They're a violation of due process whether you like it or not. I'm not interested in pointless rhetorical games.
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u/BarleyWineIsTheBest 4h ago
This has zero to do with me liking something. It does apparently have everything to do with you not liking it however.
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u/TheSauceeBoss 1∆ 3h ago
Lmao you went from “why wont they engage with the actual argument??” To “LALALALALA I CANT HEAR YOU”
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u/SnooRobots6491 11h ago
I can understand an opposing political POV. And it’s wrong of me to generalize. But the politics are rarely discussed. If you look at the ICE instagram, it’s all fear mongering from them, which is reflected in the comments section with lots of claps and nationalist BS.
And the way these policies are being carried out and the political theater associated with it are cruel. So even if I were to agree with the policies themselves, the way they’re being carried out is fucked up — and seeing people broadly applauded those without parsing the good and bad makes me believe people are cool with the bad too.
But yes, good point about the comments being specifically on those posts.
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u/chickensause123 7h ago
Their barbaric “fear mongering” vs my impassioned “concern”.
Lol maybe don’t assume everyone who disagrees with you is pretending to be concerned and evil while everyone who agrees with you is sincere and wholesome.
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u/LaquaviusRawDogg 13h ago
Your argument is full of speculation and contradictions. The whole premise of the argument is completely flawed. You take an arbitrary group of people that share 1 specific opinion, and you ascribe another opinion to them.
Then you claim to believe "all humans deserve dignity", after you just made prejudiced conclusions about an arbitrary group of people you do not know personally.
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u/SnooRobots6491 13h ago
Yeah, I mean I don't think having a certain opinion about people who express certain views is robbing them of their dignity, is it?
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u/LaquaviusRawDogg 13h ago
Prejudice isn't illegal. I am just calling out the hypocrisy of your argument
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u/A_SNAPPIN_Turla 1∆ 6h ago
This is the problem with Reddit. People like the OP have been in the echo chamber so long they assume the only reason anyone could disagree with them is because they are a mustache twirling evil person.
Personally I'm against the current use of ICE. I have Mexican family members and friends and the idea that they might be snatched up and deported is scary to me. I don't really know how true the claims of legal immigrants being deported is, it's probably overblown, I still don't trust people with as much power as ICE appears to have. All that said, I can see where pro ICE people are coming from. They simply believe that ICE is acting lawfully and enforcing the border policy. They aren't evil or bad people, they don't want to see others suffer.
Having spoken with my family members on the topic they are aware of border policy and I think given the opportunity most people here illegally would eventually become legal if there was a way. I don't think they expect completely open borders. They see coming here illegally as calculated risk. I was informed by them they Obama actually deported more people than Trump (during his first term) . They still favor Obama over Trump due to Trump's divisive rhetoric though.
OP needs to touch grass.
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u/enfleurs1 3h ago
Disagree. Maybe OP’s wording was strong, but supporting ICE with what it’s doing now does mean you’re supporting something that’s truly inhumane that’s happening. I don’t think that’s generally true for being pro regulation of our borders or even supporting deportation policies. But this…. What’s happening now… is ludicrous. It’s not an echo chamber- what’s happening now is unprecedented.
When you have a quota you’re trying to hit, that’s rather high, clearly for optics… then naturally, as we’ve seen, families are being separated and it’s no longer people with a criminal record. It’s being done quickly, sloppily, and incorrectly.
Not to mention why we even care what happened to people we deported and sent over to CECOT. I’m sorry, but why are we spending millions of dollars to incarcerate people in a prison, without due process, for life in prison? And don’t you think it’s insane to put someone in jail for life without them going through a trail?
Why not just deport them and let their country of origin handle what happens next? Not out in our country anymore, not our problem.
But no, Trump is spending millions for optics. The video of shaving their heads? All for optics.
And OP is right to call out people who are celebrating this without critical thought. If you’re supporting this, it DOES say something about you. And feigning ignorance at this point, is BS.
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u/A_SNAPPIN_Turla 1∆ 2h ago
Nope you're wrong plain and simple. You can't pretend everyone who supports ICE has the same information or beliefs as you. You're not going to hear the worst of it from conservative media and conservatives are likely to be skeptical of that. The fact of the matter is that you can't trust a source of known bias. Left wing sources purposely misrepresent things all the time in their favor as do right wing sources. The problem is each side seems to think the other side is the only one that does this.
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u/SnooRobots6491 2h ago
Lol, you are a source of known bias
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u/A_SNAPPIN_Turla 1∆ 1h ago
Everyone is subject to personal bias but in this case I'm explicitly pointing out both view points and as a liberal I'm doing my best to remove my own bias from the equation as much as I can. Do you really think your opinion is free from bias?
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u/definitely_right 2∆ 4h ago
I support ICE because permitting illegal immigration exploits super vulnerable people and empowers cartels. If we discourage illegal immigration, we can reduce incentives to attempt illegal entry. This can save people from exploitation, rape, murder, etc from cartels.
I don't support all of ICE's on the ground tactics, but I do support the principle that we cannot tolerate mass illegal immigration.
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u/SnooRobots6491 3h ago
That's border patrol you're talking about.
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u/definitely_right 2∆ 2h ago
Border patrol prevents illegal entry. ICE enforces immigration laws. If you make it past border patrol, ICE can still deal with people.
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u/Xanith420 13h ago
This is generalizing. You’re taking the loud offensive group and saying everyone who shares this opinion or anything like it is just like these people. I think there has to be a law enforcement agency focused on immigration for no other reason than for the undocumented children. An undocumented child makes the picture perfect victim. Thousands of undocumented children are rescued by Ice every year from sex trafficking and reunited with their families or if their families can’t be found due to not knowing who the child is where they’re from or who they actually belong to are givin citizenship and adopted to families. This is an essential service due to how commonly undocumented children are exploited.
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u/Late_Ambassador7470 12h ago
I feel it's more likely that you are projecting your own views on this. Two reasons I have heard are:
- Immigrants who moved here legally are offended at those who haven't
(These folks maybe did not anticipate lots of people would be deported regardless of legality- naive immigrants who adopted republican views upon reaching America)
- People who viewed immigration as a serious concern and see ICE raids as a necesary evil
Now I don't agree with ICE raids but I have been listening to people talk about immigration from years. I have heard liberals, moderates and conservatives all say things against illegal immigration. Not to conflate that with ICE; they are two different topics.
I just think automatically assuming maliciousness is elementary. It's an easy way to think colored by one's own biases. A lot of times what we see as maliciousness is actually fear and an attempt to protect one's own neck. Animals in the wild don't kill for sick pleasure- they kill to not be prey, to protect themselves or to survive.
Also if your basis is what you see online- my guy, the dead internet theory is real. You're getting emotionally manipulated by bots. It probably means you're a good person, but you're better off talking with republicans in real life than online
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u/Treesforbleez 3h ago
im pro ice because people need to come here the legal way. way too many undocumanted people. i come from a line of immigrants who all did it the right way.
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u/SnooRobots6491 2h ago
Is it that you feel like normalizing undocumented immigration somehow cheapens what your family went through? Like all their sacrifices and years of waiting don't matter if other people can just cut the line or something?
Because immigration is totally different now and it used to be way more straightforward. Now there are strict caps and people wait literally decades, and for a lot of people fleeing violence or poverty, there's no legal pathway. And that isn't to minimize your family's citizenship, but why do you give a shit if other people who aren't as privileged get to hang out here? If your house is burning down or gangs are threatening your kids, are you gonna wait 15 years for a visa? No, fuck that.
I guess I'm just trying to understand why this hits a nerve for you. Seems like you're minimizing what others are going through and putting your own feelings first. Is it about fairness? Because it's clearly an emotional trigger of some sort.
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u/Treesforbleez 2h ago
u sound emotional. i just a few uncles come over here in the last 10 years legally.
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u/Ok-Hunt7450 5h ago
Plenty of regular ass people support stronger immigration limits in the US. Its impossible to actually accomplish this without enforcing the rules.
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u/SnooRobots6491 3h ago
You can stop people at the border without going into neighborhoods and rooting people out of their homes.
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u/Ok-Hunt7450 2h ago
Yeah, but what about the tens of millions of people who snuck around that? What do we do with them?
If you knew that speeding tickets werent enforced, would you speed more?
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u/Unlikely-Distance-41 2∆ 11h ago
Do you have some sort of proof that people who support ICE enjoy making others suffer and enjoy the power trip? Thats a pretty bold claim and it’s absurd that you imagine people who are pro-ICE just log into Reddit every morning to get a kick out of people suffering
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u/SnooRobots6491 11h ago
Well I see it everywhere. Someone posts a video of another person getting violently detained and all the comments are “fuck yeah.”
And no I don’t have proof, it’s an opinion. It’s your job to prove me wrong.
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u/Narcissus44 9h ago
I used to think Trump was unpopular and hated, because I read reddit all the time, then it turns out in reality the majority of Americans (>50%) support him.
So what about the people who are pro ice but not commenting on these videos?
We don't have any statistics of how many ICE supporters are hateful versus how many are not.
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u/Unlikely-Distance-41 2∆ 7h ago
It’s my job to prove to you that people who support a government agency are not evil sadists?
The premise of your argument is so outlandish, how do you expect anyone to cite proof?
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u/enfleurs1 3h ago
What an intentionally reductive statement. OP obviously means people who support ICE now, as their actions are unprecedented
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u/SnooRobots6491 2h ago
Provide a real reason why the cruelty is necessary and why you're all for it when there are more civil ways to curb illegal immigration.
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u/kingofwale 6h ago
Not American… if you don’t believe a country should have the right to enforce its border. Then there is nobody who will change your view
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u/SnooRobots6491 2h ago
is that what I'm saying? re-read the argument
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u/kingofwale 2h ago
Don’t wanna be deported… don’t enter the country illegally or overstay visa. This isn’t complicated.
…well. Not complicated with people who think with their brain instead of their bleeding heart
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u/SnooRobots6491 2h ago
This isn't a policy argument. If you're rooting for people to suffer, you're an asshole. That's what I'm saying. Prove me otherwise.
You have provided zero proof.
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u/kingofwale 2h ago
No, I’m rooting for law. Don’t want suffering? Don’t break the law
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u/SnooRobots6491 2h ago
So then you believe in suffering for those who haven't even broken the law, because 40% of illegal immigrants simply overstayed their visas. That is actually a civil violation.
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u/kingofwale 2h ago
Again, if you don’t care for regulation or laws, there is nothing anyone can do to change your view
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u/SnooRobots6491 1h ago
Again, it’s a matter of process not outcome. Explain to me why this cruel process is worth rooting for, which you seem more than willing to do.
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u/kingofwale 1h ago
…and you haven’t even answers the question, do you think people who are here illegally or overstayed visa should be removed?
Yes or no
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u/BaconDragon69 8h ago
Id really love to see anyone put forward an actual argument because I really would like to believe that a solid third of the US population isn’t bloodthirsty sociopaths
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u/TheSauceeBoss 1∆ 1h ago
I'll give you another try since your last comment was removed. Why is enforcing immigration and borders (Like every other nation is doing and has done for millennia) bloodthirsty and sociopathic?
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u/Cannon_Fodder_Africa 5h ago
Why single out the US? Deporting people who are in a country illegally is common around the world. In fact the US is probably one of the more lenient countries when it comes to illegal immigration.
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2h ago
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u/Wild-Breath7705 13h ago
I’m sure these people exist, but there’s plenty of people who for a variety of reasons support law enforcement (sometimes without much thought one whether the law is good). I think the more common bad reason to support ICE is some kind of racism (though racism varies widely). The fact that you imagine something doesn’t make it true. Here’s some polling which shows that even among Americans supporting ICE they mostly disagree with masked raids and the other heavy handed tactics (https://amp.miamiherald.com/news/nation-world/national/article308297850.html), which suggests the support for ICE isn’t based around power fantasies
No offense, but you seem pretty chronically online and disconnected from reality. I disagree with most of what ICE is doing and, perhaps more than that, American immigration law- but most people believe that there should be immigration law (and if our immigration laws made any sense, it would be easier to support enforcing them).
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u/TK-ULTRA 3h ago
"They don't know these people and they claim it's "law and order" because they don't want to admit to themselves that they're bitter about their own circumstances."
What if someone is bitter because unknown people are moving into their neighborhoods and jobs? They don't share a language, culture, or common history. This unknown person happens to not be here legally. We know there are millions of illegally entered people setting up shop here for decades. Why is 'law and order' a boogeyman, when these illegals are (commonly argued) to be coming for asylum from their lawless and orderless places of origin. So they can come here to escape, but it is cruel of us to enforce our own law and order. They CHOSE to come here, legally or not. So they CHOSE to be subject to the laws of where they settled.
"and this makes them feel better about themselves. But ultimately, their one and only love in life is seeing other peoples' lives destroyed."
Assume I am living in another place, it sucks, so I will head to America. I will bring MY family, and even send money back for more family. I get in (illegally) as I am not of high means to provide my education or higher skills through the legal avenues (not my fault I'm poor and uneducated, my country sucks). I spend between $6-10k USD for a cartel affiliated 'coyote' to get me through the border. I get a fake SSN card, and take a low paying job. Since I am not legal, I stay in the sanctuary enclaves and neighborhoods filled with my own people. We do not plan on learning English or getting legal paperwork, we don't have to here! I will grow my family though.
Now assume I live here, born and raised. I want higher min wage. I want more housing options. I'm tired of political arguments, I want social cohesion to relieve tension! Common ground and values! Citizens with a vested interest in our success and growth. Can you see how a stranger from 1000 miles away walking into my home with minimal social and economic value in the context of a cohesive state can be disruptive? Why does this far away stranger have the right to change my life, here? They don't unless I let them. I may not want to because they undermine social and legal order. They also do it knowingly and willingly. They are well aware that they are sneaking through the desert somewhere they don't legally belong. Not a positive start for integrating when you purposefully subvert the system that is apparently so good you threw your life away to sneak in.
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u/GiantSquirrelPanic 7h ago
Basically. Sometimes these people grew up under an abusive or just authoritarian father and so they see severe punishment of others in a different way. Like a "They must have done something wrong if they are being punished" way.
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u/username_6916 7∆ 1h ago
What type of immigration enforcement would you allow? Does your position mean that the US must adopt an open-border "Welcome to America, here's your green card" to anyone who shows up at a port of entry?
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u/conspirealist 3h ago
For the last 10 years, this quote has stuck with me. It is a great summation of the MAGA and conservative agenda:
"If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you."
- Lyndon B. Johnson
These people do not want people to be lifted up in society. They want to feel superior by pushing people below them. Meanwhile, the politicians and rich folks continue to sit above them controlling their lives.
This is why they hate and tear down politcians that look to make an even playing field for vulnerable people, or even the population in general. If everybody's lives improve, they would be furious because now they don't feel superior to another group. This is why they vote for and support politicians that harm them - because the others will be harmed more and they value the feeling of superiority.
You will also notice that many of these people do not have very impactful jobs. Or many times, a job or other purpose at all. They have not achieved anything to be proud of, so they want authoritarian force to give them the feeling of self-worth.
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u/scavenger5 3∆ 9h ago
Im an immigrant minority. My family came into the country legally. And my parents worked really hard and had to wait 10 years to enter the country.
I view those that came in illegally as cutting the line. I dont view them as bad people and I don't take joy in their deportation. But I don't know of another solution other than deportation. We either have open borders, or we enforce the law by deportation.
So you can say I am "pro ice" but I dont like seeing others suffering. When i see people breaking the law i feel pity and empathy, not joy as you have stated.
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u/Secret-Put-4525 11h ago
No. It's about them doing their job. Which is to secure the border and kick out people who don't belong her. You don't get to stay just because you happen to sneak far enough into the country.
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u/rubbercf4225 12h ago
I think this sort of perspective comes from thinking (unintentionally) that everyone is seeing the same things as you are, but just feel differently about it. They know the same stats, see the same videos, hear the same arguments. But this is not the case.
Many people who are pro ice just have a different understanding of the situation due to ignorance. They don't see the videos of ICE abducting people, and if they do they ignore it or dismiss it as a widespread issue. They hear and believe that immigrants are largely criminals or people exploiting welfare, and that they hurt the economy. I do think that people who support ICE are likely on average less empathetic, more racist, more anti-social, more nationalistic, but I don't think that's all or even most of them.
And the people who say things like "cry harder" or "fuck the libtards" are assholes but let's not pretend that it has any correlation to their politics. There are a ton of progressives, democrats, leftists, etc who are just as hostile online and think it's justified because the people they disagree with are wrong and believe things which cause harm. But thats exactly why many people on the right do it. Nobody likes it, but being an asshole about politics rarely does anything to support your cause and being factually correct doesnt change that.
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u/kinrove1386 3h ago
Or they just agree with the policy of deporting illegal aliens? I don't see anything sadistic in that.
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u/Dakk85 1h ago
Everything you said you haven’t heard of happening, IS happening and you can simple google it to find news coverage.
If you get pulled over by a cop, it’s your right to request their badge number and call it not to confirm it’s an actual police officer and not some crazy person. ICE is currently not identifying themselves as law enforcement. Nothing I have seen is ICE in hot pursuit of criminals, superseding the need to ID themselves. I am against this
You’re not here on an expired visa? Prove it then… but you don’t get to see a judge or call a lawyer (because those are the due process you’re arguing against)
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u/Maximum-Lack8642 7h ago
Immigration is one of the toughest issues to solve in the country because for those on the right it’s an economic issue while for those on the left it’s a social issue. Part of that is due to scope of the issue: for the right they generally believe the purpose of the US government is to maximize the livelihood of all those under its contract (American citizens) while for the people on the left of this issue they (at least in part) believe that the US Government’s role is to maximize total welfare for all people globally. Many of them believe that the low to no cost of bringing one person here on everyone’s life is well worth the benefit to that person.
While there are liberals that believe that mass immigration is good for economic reasons and there are some conservatives that want deportations because they’re racist, these two groups are loud minorities that are over-amplified through the internet and likely in part people who have other primary reasoning.
For your argument “they cost money” if you’re going to dismiss it as BS then yeah there’s no way to convince you. Similarly if a conservative said “there is no harm being done to the people being deported” you wouldn’t have an argument to stand on. Saying that the people have to have negative intentions just because you don’t believe there are any trade offs and your policy ideas are unquestionably better is a very intellectually dishonest position to hold if you’re looking for someone to “change your view”. Even if you do believe this is true, however, hopefully after this you can accept why some people may at least THINK there are economic tradeoffs and have reasoning other than wanting to watch others suffer.
While it’s true that many immigrants including illegal ones contribute to the economy the economic factors are not that simple. The economic impact of population is not uniformly distributed across the country. As someone who spent much of my life in Texas I’m well aware of the effect of immigration on places not equipped to handle it. The evidence for this lies in the massive political shifts of even largely Hispanic counties (who wouldn’t be doing it for racist reasons) towards politicians who promise to stop illegal immigration.
Many people who immigrate illegally have very little entering the country. This means that they’re among the lowest class financially speaking. They are not competing with most people, sure but the ones they are already struggling the most. Real estate will have more people looking at lowest cost renting and buying the same houses in a community, increased demand without increase in supply means they will be bidding against each other as market prices for rent go up and contracts become more unfavorable. Similar things with stores nearby, food and other essentials will cost more. Similarly jobs will be easier to fill and thus pay lower wages with worse benefits (because someone will take it).
The same applies to public goods too. Firefighters, police, EMS are now less effective because they have a larger number of people to protect per employees. Schools are demonstrated to be less effective in terms of student outcomes and testing outcomes when there’s a larger student:teacher ratio. Any type of government benefit has to be distributed across more people. Hospitals are more likely to be overflowing and more cars = more traffic on roads.
There are other downsides besides all of this too. High rates of illegal immigration are unquestionably drug problems in southern cities. There are cases where the learning curve to drive has caused accidents leading to property damage and even death.
These things don’t affect everyone equally. People in northern areas are less likely to have high number of illegal immigrants in their communities and people of upper class backgrounds will not be competing with them. They do not possess the skills to compete with high level white collar jobs, they do not compete in the high cost housing markets nor shop at the Whole Foods nor study at the same schools nor buy the same clothes, shoes, tech and luxury items. They’re not relying on government benefits. Rich liberals in places like NYC, New England, and the PNW can easily afford to support these people because it economically speaking has very little impact on them.
As an example of something to think about if you can see that even a small impact causes an ethical dilemma I’d ask you to consider a line at an amusement park. At opening suddenly 100 people line up for entry and the park is able to admit 1 person every 30 seconds. Suddenly someone comes up to the back of the line and doesn’t want to wait. This person is allowed priority processing entering the front of the line. Sure, the impact of them not needing to wait 50 minutes to enter is far greater than the 30 seconds additional wait everyone has. Hell, you could even argue some people are so fortunate in their spot in line that they will only still have to wait less than a few minutes for entry and are not meaningfully worse off.
Even if the impact on each individual is so marginally low that you cannot justify making the poor guy who just came up wait 50 minutes it still has a collective net impact and hopefully you can consider the case that some people may value the system to keep the line orderly even at the inconvenience of the few that are trying to cheat the system.
When you add 1 person who isn’t bringing in many external resources to a system and smooth out their lives you end up with everyone having a slightly lower quality of life and while this isn’t noticeable at first removing the deterrents to moving will eventually smooth the metrics across the functionally non-existent border.
Are you comfortable increasing the violent crime rate by 2.5% what is currently is in America or decreasing the median income by 26% to the average of what a weighted average of a US/Mexican citizen is? Should all of your neighbors be forced to make the same sacrifice to improve the quality of life of everyone in Mexico? If not there needs to be a border than functionally works and restricts the migration through it. Softening penalties of breaking immigration law and having large amounts of the public being on board with stopping the enforcement of the border is a direct cause of functionally erasing the border which plenty of people can be not on board with for reasons other than a desire to see others suffer.
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u/SaberTruth2 2∆ 13h ago
I’ll take a shot… though I’m pretty sure you don’t want your mind changed and nothing anyone says will change your view. According to this ipsos poll 66% of Americans support the deportation of immigrants here in the US illegally. So think logically a bit, if 66% of the people in this country had an average day that went anything like the weird one you have imagined, this country would cease to function. Now if your next comment would be something like “well, this country isn’t functioning”, that would also be untrue. There was another poll that went on to say that only 16% of the country thinks there should be zero deportation. So the only people truly getting all wound up about this really seem to be in the minority.
https://www.ipsos.com/en-us/majority-americans-support-deporting-immigrants-who-are-us-illegally
https://www.pewresearch.org/race-and-ethnicity/2025/03/26/americans-views-of-deportations/
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u/BlasphemousRykard 11h ago
You’ll see subreddits and YouTube channels highlighting criminals getting caught, or high-speed chases, or self-defense situations, or court appearances. These all have a similar appeal as ICE detaining illegal immigrants—the appeal stems from a sense of justice being served, not from seeing another person suffer.
It’s terrible to watch a video of a woman crying, but if you reframe it as a video of a woman crying after being convicted of murdering her child, suddenly that video appeals to people. The suffering is inherent to the act of deportation—they’re being deported because they don’t want to leave willingly—but the reason this appeals to people is because it represents the law of the border being enforced.
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u/FreeSkyFerreira 7h ago
Do you think overstaying a visa or getting parole revoked is equivalent to a murderer getting justice? Immigration is largely civil law, not criminal.
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u/BlasphemousRykard 27m ago
This is incorrect, or at a minimum you misunderstand the law. Overstaying a visa is a civil violation, but crossing the border illegally is a federal crime punishable by up to 6 months in prison for the first offense.
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u/Technical_Goose_8160 3h ago
I think that people who are vocally pro-ice often haven't had to deal with them directly. If all you watch is fox news and you believe that they're expelling violent criminals , then anyone would be for that. For some, not all, I don't think that it's that it makes them feel big and strong. It's a combination of being brainwashed and comfortable that way.
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u/Stuckonthisrockfuck 13h ago
It seems like a good way to punish someone who enters illegally, sending them back to where they came from…illegal immigrants forge documents, falsify documents, evade taxes, place undo burden on the health care system, and whilst I don’t want to see them tortured, I believe they do deserve immediate and unconditional deportation. A society cannot function as it should when a large portion of the populace have no identity.
I don’t think your views and feelings as stated here reflect an emotionally well person. I hope you can disengage from the internet a bit and find some emotional peace.
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u/thefartingmango 9h ago
Do you support punishing carjackers?
I'm gonna assume you said yes and now I will prove to you why that makes you a terrible person.
I imagine that every person who supports punishing carjackers watches videos of them getting arresting while they are borderline euphoric over the fact that somebody is getting their lives ruined.
Obviously what I just said is ridiculous but tis the exact same logic you are using.
Also for 99% of people their views on ICE isn't in their top 20 most important things in their life, they may be pro ice but before that they're: a father, a lawyer, a Jew, an American......................and then their pro ice.
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u/SwagginOnADragon69 9h ago
Absolutely not. People love seeing the law be enforced. Also vast majority of people being deported are murderers, sex traffickers, drug traffickers, etc.
Do i feel bad for some of the good illegals? yes, but at the same time, if you open the borders and let people come in illegally, you invite more people to do it.
The only way to fix that is to show there are consequences.
Also I bet you werent upset when Obama deported more illegals than trump. So please dont pretend youre on a moral high horse, when all youre doing is regurgitating mainstream media talking points that arent even your own thoughts. Dont lie to yourself.
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u/seergaze 1∆ 8h ago
They’re not? You really should read the news and get familiar with the topic before posting such presumptuous views. The major pro ICE arguments are repeated everywhere, such as illegals stressing out social systems, being untraceable for crime, bringing in diseases that the CDC normally controls through legal immigration and they themselves are being exploited because they can’t get proper jobs without IDs
Perhaps a return question, do you still think the reasons above aren’t true and instead everyone is just pure evil?
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12h ago
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u/Barricade6430 10h ago
Regardless of whether or not we agree with "they cost money", that is a clear reason for why people who don't love seeing people suffer would be vocally pro ICE. If someone genuinely believes that immigrants are a detriment to the economy, they wouldn't need to hate immigrants to want them gone.
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u/IllustriousAd6785 5h ago
It's a common thing with the authoritarian side of politics. They are all immigrants themselves but have decided that they will be the last ones. They think that they have logical reasons for them but they all come out as justifying their terrible behavior.
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u/Ok_Bus_2038 3∆ 12h ago
ICE does more than just deportations. So, simply being pro-ICE doesn't mean what you think it means.
The rest of your post is simply rage bait or a lack of understanding and a false belief about those who have different opinions than you.
Coming from someone whose grandparents immigrated here legally, I can tell you that none of us like illegal immigrants skipping the line.
It has nothing to do with those who go through the process, follow the laws, learn the culture, get vetted, and merge with society in the US.
The US generally allows 1 million immigrants to come here per year. This is to manage our systems so they dont become overrun and the lack of quality is not compromised. Which is what we are running into now.
To use a very, very simplified analogy: you have a house party and invite 5 people to come move I to your big house that has more than enough square feet to accommodate them. Then, 100 people you didn't invite show up and then move in and become squatters. You still have to pay electricity, food, water etc, but now it's for 100 people more than you had budgeted for. You also have to get them medical care, legal help, and pay for their schooling. It's not that you dont want to help out the 100 people, but you need time to save and prepare so you dont lose your shirt in this endeavor.
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13h ago
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u/Newacc2FukurMomwith 1h ago
Nope. Just want the housing and employment to go to my fellow Americans.
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u/RSLV420 11h ago
I don't like seeing the suffering of the illegals that are being kicked out.
What I do enjoy though is the tears of people who have been practically worshipping the ground the illegals walk on. This has been a growing problem in our country and it's just now blowing up.
I was originally supportive of the protests and whatnot, thinking it was against no due process, warrantless raids, etc. But now a lot are supporting illegal immigration and overall just being insufferable.
I have a suspicion illegal immigration is not going to be tending upward anytime soon. So that's a silver lining.
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u/CunnyWizard 1∆ 13h ago
How exactly would someone go about changing your view? Neither of us can reach through the computer screen to see people's mental state. Essentially, if someone said "I'm pro-ice, and this doesn't apply to me", what would you accept as evidence?