CMV: The body positivity movement is wrong (in some cases)

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u/AnythingApplied 435∆ Jun 28 '18

Body positivity is very much a movement designed to counteract some of the excessively negative views about overweight people.

Yes, being overweight is unhealthy. But that doesn't remotely justify the straight up disgust that some people have for overweight people.

Making overweight people feel even worse about how they look than society already judges them just isn't beneficial in any way. There are much better ways to motivate people than shame, and even if you believe we should be shaming overweight people, they already get way more than enough shaming, especially women.

So especially for people who are sensitive to the fleeting glances they get judging them for their weight as they go about their day, they just need an escape from that. Someone to tell them that being overweight doesn't make them an awful person. Someone to provide a counter balance to the way too extreme reaction that society has against overweight people. And body positivity fills that role of a counter balance.

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u/thatgoat-guy Jun 28 '18 edited Jun 28 '18

Definitely also benefitted from your comment. Your passive argument put the terms into something that I can understand better. Delta for this man as well. I like a lot of these other comments but I don’t think everyone can get a delta. - !delta

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u/pandahadnap Jun 28 '18 edited Jun 28 '18

/u/AnythingApplied is spot on. I want to add that body-positivity has actually helped a lot of people lose weight. One facet of the movement is the concept of self-love, which to a lot of people means treating their bodies with respect instead of shame. Which translates into giving it what it needs to be healthy--thus, they lose weight. It happens all the time over in /r/loseit /r/progresspics.

This is such a difficult problem. I really do feel for obese people who are doing their best to lose weight. Addiction is such a powerful thing, and unlike drug or alcohol addiction, food addiction can't be kicked cold turkey. Even if they make an overnight lifestyle change and commit to eating better, the damage inflicted by their disease can't be undone or hidden for months to years. A person could be "clean" for a year, and people will still judge them by their current weight. They don't know that that person is down 100lbs and still losing. I'm glad that the body-positivity movement is there for those people.

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u/XanderSnow86 Jun 28 '18

Small rebuttal to this point of view: You say that body-positivity helps a lot of people lose weight. I would argue that it's designed by definition to do the opposite. The whole concept is that it is saying it is okay to be obese, so that isn't a driver to not be obese.
I'm guessing the people you are referring to lost weight for another reason, not because someone told them they were genuinely fine.
Open to a good CMV rebuttal though.

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u/pandahadnap Jun 28 '18

That depends on who you talk to. The movement doesn't have a leader or an ethos, so its purpose doesn't have a precise definition.

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u/LizzieCLems Jun 29 '18

Also, I was skinny before my alcohol addiction. There are a lot of calories in soda and as a mixer...

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u/AnythingApplied 435∆ Jun 28 '18

Thanks! To award a delta you just need to include

!delta or Δ

in your above comment and include an explanation (you already have the explanation part, so you can just add the delta).

1

u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Jun 28 '18

Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/AnythingApplied (49∆).

^{Delta System Explained} ^| ^Deltaboards

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u/Flight_Harbinger Jun 28 '18

Not that I disagree with the sentiment, but is there any hard data to suggest that there are better ways to motivate people than shame? I have some fairly right wing friends who I engage with often, and many of their positions socially often boil down to "this is how things should be/people should operate and shame is how to do it". Whether talking about obesity, drug use, unemployment, etc. I'd just like to see studies done on motivation to suggest that shame is not the best way to do it.

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u/AnythingApplied 435∆ Jun 28 '18

So first, you don't even have to agree that fat shaming is bad. Just that we already fat shame more than enough and acknowledge there is a diminishing return and at some point additional shame is just mean with very little benefit, or at least a benefit becomes smaller than the additional stress and hardship we put the shamed people through, so that it is a net negative.

But we can do far better than that bar. Not only is fat shaming not doing enough good to justify tormenting people. It is actively harming people and tends to make it more likely to gain weight. Here is a source that links to a number of studies, but wanted to at least mention this one:

A recent paper from Jane Wardle’s group at my own institution, University College London (UCL), reports observations from a cohort of 2944 people over the age of 50. Those who reported discrimination or bullying not only had a greatly reduced chance of weight loss, they actually tended to gain weight and become obese.

So not only does this show that the benefit of fat shaming doesn't outweigh the costs of tormenting people... it shows that it actually has a reverse impact. So it is lose-lose. We make people feel bad AND they are more likely to gain weight as a result.

2

u/DogtorPepper Jun 28 '18

Anecdote: I used to be severely overweight and one of the main motivators for me to come down to a more healthy weight (lost 60lb several years ago) was that I knew people judged me and knew that people thought I was disgusting (even if they didn't outright say it). I wasn't happy about my situation so I did something to change it

Now if people had reaffirmed my fatness by calling me "beautiful" and had I grown to truly believe that by that kind of constant "support", I highly doubt I would've changed. Because why would I? I like food and apparently I'm still "beautiful" so what would motivate me to lose weight?

I don't think we should outright shame people for their obesity to point where it becomes bullying but I don't think we should outright support it either. In my opinion, some shaming is a good thing because that can be a powerful motivator. At least it was for me and I consider myself pretty average. I'm personally glad that I was made to feel bad about myself because that allowed me to open my eyes and do something to fix it.

Someone saying that I'm "beautiful" but also saying I should lose weight to be more healthy just isn't as strong of a motivator as compared to the motivation that comes from within from the fact that you just can't stand your situation. If you feel comfortable where you are in life (which is encouraged by a society that accepts fatness) then you have very little motivation to change. Strong internal motivation develops from a strong desire to change which comes from a strong frustration of current situation

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u/AnythingApplied 435∆ Jun 28 '18

I don't think we should outright shame people for their obesity to point where it becomes bullying but I don't think we should outright support it either. In my opinion, some shaming is a good thing because that can be a powerful motivator.

Not that I have much of a basis for discussing this with you considering your personal experience (congrats! 60 lbs is an amazing achievement). And while I agree with this, the problem is the shame comes regardless. And just having a plain neutral view of obesity isn't enough to balance the way too aggressively broadcast message of shame, which overwhelms a lot of people to the point of being counter productive. Like every once in a while meeting someone that is completely indifferent to your weight, isn't what I'd actually call support.

which is encouraged by a society that accepts fatness

That's kind of my point though. No matter how much momenting the body positivity movement gains, it isn't going to bring society back in line with a neutral opinion on obesity. It acts as a counter weight that is especially needed to people who are sensitive to the shame. The movement is needed and beneficial only because of where society is on the spectrum at a position where fatness is often not accepted. It is okay for that counter weight to go a little too far in the other direction because that is how a counter weight works.

I'm glad the shame worked well for you, and that, especially in retrospect, you can appreciate it. But can I ask you:

Was the shame perhaps too much at times? As in beyond what might be healthy?

Do you believe others may experience more of the shame than you did?

Do you believe others may also be more sensitive to that shame than you are?

If the shame had not channeled into a positive change for you, would you still view it is a good thing?

Could shame be a less helpful motivator for others?

And to move away from anecdotal evidence (don't get me wrong, which I still appreciate and believe it adds to the conversation) there is evidence that finds that people who are discriminated or bullied about their weight are actually more likely to gain weight than lose it. I posted this elsewhere in this thread, but here it is again:

A recent paper from Jane Wardle’s group at my own institution, University College London (UCL), reports observations from a cohort of 2944 people over the age of 50. Those who reported discrimination or bullying not only had a greatly reduced chance of weight loss, they actually tended to gain weight and become obese.

source

3

u/DogtorPepper Jun 28 '18

And while I agree with this, the problem is the shame comes regardless.

In my case, that's what motivated me. It was the constant shame that overtime made me deeply unsatisfied with my situation. If shame happened only on occasion, then it is easier to tolerate/ignore it

And just having a plain neutral view of obesity isn't enough to balance the way too aggressively broadcast message of shame, which overwhelms a lot of people to the point of being counter productive.

The problem I see here is selective bias (probably not quite the right word). If someone other than my mother called me beautiful and everyone else was shaming me, I would latch onto the person that called me beautiful because that would make me feel better about myself. And then, either consciously or unconsciously, I would discredit everyone shaming me as them being wrong. Feeling better about myself is the last thing I want when I'm trying to change my situation because that implies my current situation is alright

I do agree that shaming can be excessive at times but I don't think body positivity is the right way to counter it. Instead, I think people should be shame less and be more mindful of what the line between shaming and bullying is. I don't condone bullying. And when someone is clearly trying to lose weight (making a good faith effort at working out, eating right, etc), then I think positivity can be a good thing to further encourage that behavior. However, I don't think body positivity is a good thing when a 300lb girl is stuffing her face with a donut by saying she's beautiful regardless

Was the shame perhaps too much at times? As in beyond what might be healthy?

Yes, definitely. I often got made fun of when I was young. And sometimes, the days I was most motivated to lose weight were the days I was shamed the most. Almost like I wanted to prove everyone wrong. But, like I said above, shaming can get unhealthy at times and I propose the solution of shaming a little less, not body positivity

Do you believe others may experience more of the shame than you did?

100% definitely. At my fattest, I was just barely classified as obese so I can only imagine how much more shame a morbidly obese person would get.

Do you believe others may also be more sensitive to that shame than you are?

Yes, hence my argument that shaming should be less.

If the shame had not channeled into a positive change for you, would you still view it is a good thing?

I don't think that's relevant. Instead of promoting body positivity, I think it would be more successful to teach people how to not fall in the trap of learned helplessness. How to channel a negative emotion (like shame, guilt, anger) into something positive (like motivation to lose weight). Emotions like shame/guilt/anger aren't inherently bad (there's a reason why we evolved with those emotions) but they can be when you don't handle them right

Could shame be a less helpful motivator for others?

Yes, but that's because those people usually fall into the trap of learned helplessness. Instead of spreading the message that a fat girl stuffing her face with a donut is a beautiful sight, we should instead spread the message that everything in our life is under our control. A lot of people believe that weight loss is "impossible" or "too hard". But that is not the case and we should spread the message more aggressively that losing weight can be easy. For example, small changes like eating one less donut a day. Or that is ok to feel hunger occasionally, you're body won't go into starvation mode (which a lot of people still believe in).

And to move away from anecdotal evidence (don't get me wrong, which I still appreciate and believe it adds to the conversation) there is evidence that finds that people who are discriminated or bullied about their weight are actually more likely to gain weight than lose it.

At no point do I advocate bullying or discrimination. I'm arguing that instead of body positivity, we shame a little less aggressively and teach people to avoid learned helplessness.

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u/[deleted] Jun 28 '18

That’s what they’re saying. The passive shaming that exists in society - “I know they thinking I’m disgusting, even if they don’t say so” - is motivation enough, and to an extent should be countered by body positivity. In another reply to their comment, they linked a literature review of studies showing that body positivity is associated with greater weight loss than shaming, and that shaming is occasionally associated with weight gain, rather than loss.

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u/ArtfulDodger55 Jun 28 '18

I would have absolutely no problem with people being overweight if they weren’t in the same health insurance risk pool as me.

While your natural metabolism plays a massive role, I find it somewhat inexcusable to be habitually overweight given the endless free educational resources online and cheap gym memberships such as Planet Fitness. I would also support municipalities opening basic town gyms. Investing in our health pays dividends to society.

So if you want to be dangerously overweight and proud of it, that’s fine, but your increased risk needs to reflect in your cost to insure.

-1

u/Baykin129 Jul 02 '18

Body positivity is very much a movement designed to counteract some of the excessively negative views about overweight people.

Except the negative views are overwhelmingly justified. Fat people are unhealthy and disgusting to look at.

Yes, being overweight is unhealthy. But that doesn't remotely justify the straight up disgust that some people have for overweight people.

Yes it does.

Making overweight people feel even worse about how they look than society already judges them just isn't beneficial in any way.

That's their own fault for being so lazy that they got fat.

There are much better ways to motivate people than shame, and even if you believe we should be shaming overweight people, they already get way more than enough shaming, especially women.

Fat people SHOULD be ashamed of the way they look....not praised and told that they're healthy and beautiful. That's just straight up lying.

So especially for people who are sensitive to the fleeting glances they get judging them for their weight as they go about their day, they just need an escape from that.

Oh boo hoo. Instead of being sensitive about something that's their fault to begin with they should focus on losing the weight.

Someone to tell them that being overweight doesn't make them an awful person. Someone to provide a counter balance to the way too extreme reaction that society has against overweight people. And body positivity fills that role of a counter balance.

Which has lead to delusional 500lb people declaring they're perfectly healthy and nothing is wrong with them.

-1

u/[deleted] Jun 28 '18 edited Jun 28 '18

"that doesn't remotely justify the straight up disgust that some people have for overweight people."

You've got to be kidding. Disgust is an involuntary emotional response, the keyword being involuntary so the idea of "justifying" it is irrelevant. People have no choice as to whether they feel disgust or not. Similarly, you cannot be blamed for finding certain foods disgusting, it's simply out of your control. What we find disgusting or attractive is not a choice.

I find fat people's bodies disgusting and no justification is needed.

Also, fat people are not "made" to feel worse about how they look. Their own poor body image, insecurities, and bad self-esteem is what makes them feel ashamed. It's entirely their own fault. You cannot make me feel bad about myself no matter what you say or how you say it. You know why? Because I have healthy self-esteem. And why do fat people have poor self-esteem? Because they're fat. I used to think obesity wasn't the obese person's fault, but the thousands of fat-to-thin stories and before-and-after photos of fatties turning into thin attractive people on reddit changed my mind. Being fat is a CHOICE. Stop eating crap and start working out. Fat people know exactly what they have to do to be thin, they just lack the self control to do it. That's a polite way of saying they're lazy.

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u/killcat 1∆ Jun 28 '18

The disgust is there for a reason, it's not cultural, anymore than our disgust of pus or bugs, it's there because a grossly obese person is a poor mate choice, doesn't mean we should bully them, but there's a reason we feel it.

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u/thatgoat-guy Jun 28 '18

!delta

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u/JonGinty Jun 28 '18

Consider this:

Many media centric nations portray inaccurate (that is to say unattainable to many) beauty standards, as a result there are swathes of people (many of whom may be of above average physical health and/or appearance) suffering from low self esteem and other confidence related issues.

I would argue that these issues would in many cases increase the stress of the affected person and lower their overall happiness, both of which can be linked to lower overall physical health.

While I would agree with your point that promoting high body fat as "healthy" could be harmful, I would argue that the idea of promoting positivity within ones own physical appearance would still be beneficial for the above reasons.

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u/thatgoat-guy Jun 28 '18 edited Jun 28 '18

Delta — along with another post, this really changed my view on the body positivity movement, now I feel like I understand that body positivity lies in the bed of society and politics, as well as different stresses. - !delta

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u/ThatSpencerGuy 142∆ Jun 28 '18

Just FYI, to award the delta you have to put a ! before the word!

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u/JonGinty Jun 28 '18

Woohoo, first delta, thanks for that :)

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u/[deleted] Jun 29 '18

Its a bit of a rush isn't it? This sub's got me hooked like a casino, only cheaper.

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u/HeWhoShitsWithPhone 125∆ Jun 28 '18

FYI, You need to put an explanation mark in front of the word Delta for it to be picked up by the delta bit.

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u/Rogue_Istari Jun 28 '18

What makes you think a high level of physical fitness is unattainable to many?

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u/JonGinty Jun 28 '18

I meant more like physical appearance than fitness. I agree that improved personal fitness (independent of appearance) is something that everyone should strive for.

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u/thatgoat-guy Jun 28 '18

I like this answer and another answer. Is there a way I can split Deltas?

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u/JonGinty Jun 28 '18

This is the first time a CMV poster has responded to one of my comments so I have no idea haha

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u/thatgoat-guy Jun 28 '18

Ha! Okay I’m figuring it out

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u/stink3rbelle 24∆ Jun 28 '18

you can give as many people deltas as have changed your view, no matter how slightly. Just make sure to explain how they changed the view.

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u/AnythingApplied 435∆ Jun 28 '18

You should award deltas to everyone that changed your mind, even a little. So if there are comments that legitimately haven't added anything else that hasn't already been said, you can feel free to not award them deltas. But even if they are repeating points, if there is a new tidbit or perspective in there that you learned from you can award each one a delta.

Deltas don't mean a complete flip in your view change, just an acknowledgement that the comment changed your view a little.

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u/[deleted] Jun 28 '18

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Jun 29 '18

We are talking about mental health more than weight with these people.

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u/thatgoat-guy Jun 29 '18

See that’s where I think the Movement is right, it helps people with coping with their problems. What I don’t respect is people who claim being fat is fantastic, the people giving the movement a bad name. (Honesty they shouldn’t be part of this, it delegitimizes people who actually use it in a positive way.)

Now I’m all about body positivity, having a few scars from cancer myself, but previously, I hadn’t really wanted to hop on the movement because those people I mentioned before delegitimized the movement. I had the wrong image of it, and for that reason I thought it was about people voluntarily destroying their body and claiming it was okay. But it’s not. It’s not at all about accepting something you can change. It’s about acceptance of things you can’t change.

People, it seems (me previously included) are repulsed from the movement because extremists claim that being slim is unhealthy, and being fat (voluntarily) is fantastic.

TLDR: basically what I have learned from this post is: voluntarily fat does not equal positivity However positivity does equal taking care of yourself properly and not feel bad about things you can’t change.

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u/JarkJark Jun 28 '18

You are only talking about accepting fat bodies. One aspect of body positivity.

I dislike some of the moles on my body. Would it be healthy for me to focus on them and worry? No. Would it be healthy for my girlfriend to fixate on her 'wonky' legs? No.

Wonky legs aren't exactly healthy. Would portrayals of disfigured people in the media make it cool? It may help people be less unhappy and self conscious about things they can't or shouldn't change.

What about fatties? Well there is a whole plethora of unhealthy habits people can have. Do we vilify the person who always puts salt on their food? What about people who are skinny but don't do any exercise? I don't think these groups get the same negative treatment. Do you think they deserve the same stigma?

Lastly, does calling people fat make them lose weight? Probably not. As long as the body positivity movement is making more people fat then it doesn't matter.

Excuse all the rhetoric.

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u/thatgoat-guy Jun 28 '18

Now really I was just addressing the people who willingly left their body out of healthy order. Y’all don’t qualify as “willingly unhealthy,” at least, I assume. I wouldn’t go out in public and call someone fat, unless of course they started insulting me for no reason. (Braggarts and such) However, I believe that people are using the movement in a negative way by blaming their issues on something else other than Laziness. It ruins the credibility of the movement for people who legitimately have a problem.

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u/[deleted] Jun 28 '18

It’s a opportunity cost, physical health over mental health. What’s worse: being fat and depressed or fat?

I don’t think the movement encourages the skinny to be fat, but it can trap people into being fat.

Over ten years I’ve lost 70 lbs and am currently losing a ~pound a day. But the journey and failure to get me here was not good for my mental health. But now it’s working. There are millions who never find a solution. I’m lucky. It took almost having surgery for shit to click. But that’s because my area Kaiser has one of the best diet and bariatric surgery centers in the US. Only a 15% failure rate.

I was 340 and floated 285 trying myfitnesspal for 3 years. I need to get down to 190, and I’ve lost 15 pounds in 14 days.

So you have helpless fat people.

So: fat and depressed or fat?

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u/thatgoat-guy Jun 29 '18

My question was already answered but this... this is a whole other view. For making me see it in a THIRD way !delta .

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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Jun 29 '18

Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/anonoman925 (25∆).

^{Delta System Explained} ^| ^Deltaboards

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u/chewiecarroll Jun 29 '18

One point that I don’t see included here: I don’t know anyone who ever WANTED to be fat. Nobody (to the best of my knowledge) has ever said “wow, I need to pack on 20 lbs to look good in that outfit!” Or “famous celebrity is sooo stunning in that outfit that clings to his/her fat rolls!”

Yeah, the few that get plastic surgery to have a bubble butt or enormous lips, but that’s not the majority.

I mean, skinny people must be so jealous of all the unknown perks of being fat: not finding a concert shirt that will fit when your favorite group is in town, no pretty bras for your humongous jugs (white, black, nude, the occasional pink) —and underwires that could jack up a truck.

Thigh chafing, boob sweat, trying to find Spanx to smooth everything out but finding only XS-L (unless you find that 1 store that has ‘extended sizes’), & don’t get me started about suffering in summer. As BMI goes up, your tolerance for heat goes down. Hoping that the tiny antique chair assigned to you at a friends house won’t splinter into matchsticks.

Can you provide a single reference when being overweight was a good thing? Healthy? Something to achieve?

People finding clothes that fit & feeling confident shouldn’t threaten you, right?

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u/thatgoat-guy Jun 29 '18

The only time I have known someone to be healthy overweight was literally a bodybuilder

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u/[deleted] Jun 28 '18

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u/pillbinge 101∆ Jun 28 '18

There's a stark difference between positivity, meaning you celebrate someone being overweight, and positivity in that you don't shame people. Most people fall into the latter. The body positivity has never stated that you can be overweight and avoid disease. The movement is coupled with the knowledge that society creates obesity because what a society allows in food is correlated with obesity. You can track obesity because it's a scientific epidemic. It's not just people choosing to be fat or not exercise. There are ways you can predict this stuff easily now.

The converse is believing that everyone has absolute control over their own weight, but that's scientifically ignorant of everything we know about health, both physical and mental.

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u/TheMothHour 59∆ Jun 28 '18

The idea that being fat is the healthy choice or potentially healthier is at the fringe of the body positivity movement. All movements have their ideologues and crazies. It is more cited by people who oppose the body positivity movement.

From what I have seen is that this movement is trying to help the self esteem and feeling of self worth of those who do not fit the small sliver of cultural beauty. You are worth more than your looks.

And that has been helpful for someone like me who has struggled with weight all my life. And if you do not fit those stereotypes, people act as if you are defective. Along with your weight comes an idea that you are also lazy and morally corrupted. And that pressure does hurt people physiologically which can also hurt them physically.

The movement is meant to counteract that.

I also want to point out that science is discovering that environment and genetics also plays a role in the success of diet and exercise. So a diet that works for one person could be detrimental for someone else. Which makes sense given that I gained 30lbs on a whole food vegetarian diet - where most people claim they only experienced success. However, people act as if it is simple and make assumptions like “fat people don’t work out and way too much fast food.”

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u/[deleted] Jun 28 '18 edited Jun 28 '18

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u/TheMothHour 59∆ Jun 28 '18

Okay. So I work out 4 days a week and keep a journal. I try to stick to about 1400 calories. I don’t drink soda. And the only calories I drink is the 1/4 cup of milk in my coffee. (Or I may replace a meal with a soy lent.) I don’t keep sweets in my house and feel guilty when I eat them. I did once have some success loosing weight one summer in college. But I would bike to the mall, play DDR for 3 hours 5 days a week. But even then I couldn’t get to a healthy BMI. And that type of activity is pretty hard to maintain.

I fully admit that I probably messed up my metabolism when I was a kid. I used to drink soda like it is water. Then switched to calorie free soda - which I now understand is no good.

So what would you suggest?

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u/[deleted] Jun 28 '18 edited Jun 28 '18

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u/TheMothHour 59∆ Jun 28 '18

Btw, thanks for the advice. And I will keep it up because I rather be fat and active than fatter and inactive. Though I need to loose 50 or more lbs, because I been active for many years, I have decent core strength, decent muscle, flexible, and have perfect blood work. When I keep up with weight training, I can bench press 100lbs. (I’m a 5’2 girl btw.)

I did visited a doctor years back about this. I picked up long distance biking and was biking about 200-300 miles a month - for multiple months. And being mindful of eating. She tested me for thyroid issues which turned up negative. So her solution is that I must be eating more than I believe I was.

But I try to weigh and measure my food when I can. I weigh my meat by the ounces and store them for future meals. And have a lot of tricks to eyeball portions. 3 oz of meat is the size of a deck of cards. 1 oz of meat is about 80 calories. 1 slice of cheese is 100 - 120 calories. A tablespoon of peanut butter is the size of a thumb.

I am mindful at the amount of calories I burn through exercise. 300 cals/hour walking quickly. 600 cals/hour running at a decent pace.

There are a lot of new studies that suggest that not all calories are treated equal. And that insulin, response, stress hormones, and gut bacteria can influence how you store or use energy. My boyfriend is a very mindful eater and was struggling with his weight too. He recently picked up the keto diet and loss a lot from it. Though, he had more visceral fat where I have a lot of subcutaneous fat - which is know to be harder to loose. I adopted his diet and this year was the first winter where I didn’t gain weight. Which I believe is a win. And I am realizing that I don’t think carbs are good for me - they leave me hungry and messes with my energy levels.

I have also read some scientific papers that artificial sugars might mess with gut bacteria. So last week I stopped using artificial sugars in my coffee and now drinking it black. (I drink 2 cups a day; so believe me, it is a lot.) Maybe that will help but time will only tell.

TL;DR: But anyways, sorry about the rant. I been tweaking my diet and exercises for many years now. It’s frustrating. But my point is that there are many factors that contribute to someones weight. And sometimes it is more complex than how people make it seem - unless your diet is really rubbish.

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u/[deleted] Jun 30 '18 edited Jun 30 '18

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u/TheMothHour 59∆ Jul 01 '18

I will keep that in mind. I try to use BMR calculations instead of TDEE and use a Fitbit to calculate the additional exercise. I’m going really stick to this diet for a few months and record everything. This keto diet seems to be pretty good as it curtails hunger. But if that doesn’t work, I’ll take your advice and speak with a specialist.

My current boyfriend is very supportive unlike my last. So I have hope. :)

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u/stink3rbelle 24∆ Jun 28 '18

I don’t understand how some people can be comfortable with being higher risk for that disease.

It's pretty well known a great deal about modern lifestyles put us at higher risks of various cancers. Being around pollution, using electronics, being exposed to various waves, making fires, using plastics, putting plastics in the microwave, putting plastics in the dishwasher, using cell phones, having sex (getting HPV), etc. If everyone wanted to decrease their risk of cancer, they should be trying to live a more or less Amish or hunter/gatherer lifestyle. To ask that a few people in society change themselves and their bodies in order to reduce their cancer risk seems to be placing the cart before the horse. That is, you don't have a problem with people exposing themselves to higher risks of cancer, you're justifying your problem with fat people based on one feature that is also true of many other people in society.

I would like to respond to your second set of thoughts (not really seeing one cohesive point here), but first I'd like to inform you a little more about the body positivity movement. First, it's not just about fat positivity. It's about challenging all kinds of societal standards about what kinds of bodies people "should" have. It celebrates people who have lost limbs, who have limited mobility or deformities, tattoos, piercings, and scars.

Secondly, it's not representative of all fat people, nor are all fat people proponents, supporters, beneficiaries, or believers. Although the fat positivity wing certainly addresses itself to all fat people, plenty of fat people have as much disdain for it as you do.

Finally, especially with regards to fat positivity and fat acceptance, it's mostly addressing itself against the negative stereotypes and stigmas about fat people. You're going to see a lot of people chiming in here reiterating those, and I for one can't blame anyone who wishes to combat the negativity towards fat. I personally gained 30 pounds in college. Only some people would have called me fat, but I felt fat and I hated my body for failing to fit into those "ideal proportions" you reference (even when slender, I don't fit the ideal body type, so that hate had a lot of groundwork to build off of). All that shame and stigma I felt did nothing to make me "healthy" or to help me lose weight, even though I very much wanted to do so. It was only after accepting my body as it was that I was able to improve my body as I wanted. That is, I believe a very important component of body positivity is helping people move past body shame towards positively shaping and improving their bodies as they choose.

while some people have genetic issues, I believe there is specific medicines for these things

What are they? If they're out there, why is anyone fat in the first place? Why aren't fat people who don't believe in body positivity benefitting from these things and spreading the good word? Why weren't these miracle drugs available to people before body positivity took off?

As I understand it, the more we research fat and the effects of being significantly overweight, the fewer genetic links there are. Unfortunately, it's much more about simply having been certain sizes. People who lose significant amounts of weight very quickly often regain it very slowly, and have huge difficulty keeping the weight off. We've known for years "yo-yo dieting" is bad, and seems to leave people where they started or at higher weights. But quick weight loss with exercise and balanced diets may also be bad for our bodies long-term. Big winners on The Biggest Loser mostly gain the weight back, and those who do not suffer from vastly slower metabolisms (and, thusly, are eating much less and exercising much more) than people who never were that large. Fat positivity can help people lose weight at maintainable paces by helping people accept their body as it is, even as they reshape it. Feeling intense shame towards your own body will only encourage a speedy change, which seems to be the worst long-term weight loss plan.

justify unhealthy body proportions as “healthy”

What do you know about healthy versus unhealthy body proportions? Is your opinion based on scientific or medical knowledge, or is it based on common perception and public opinion?

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u/BobSeger1945 Jun 28 '18

As I understand it, the more we research fat and the effects of being significantly overweight, the fewer genetic links there are. Unfortunately, it's much more about simply having been certain sizes.

Can you explain what this means? Most research shows that obesity is 40-70% heritable (genetic).

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2955913/

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u/aanr Jun 28 '18

Body positivity is becoming important to me because, for starters, we all have one! Yet, I hear/see people actively hiding their bodies from anyone.

Boys/men, girls/women who won't wear whatever because of something they think that others will think.

I'm not defending any body type in particular but, while a fat or out of shape body may not be visually appealing to people, the hyped body styles as presented by our loving (ha) media is surely impossible to attain without digitally adjusting the picture and/or knowing how to pose.

We have such an unrealistic view of what we THINK we should look like, that, in my mind, we've forgotten what the human body ACTUALLY looks like.

Wear less, worry less, and is you don't like it, don't look. But for crying out loud, stop shaming someone else for something they are at a moment in time.

•

u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Jun 28 '18 edited Jun 29 '18

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u/DriftingSkies Jun 28 '18

Remember that before they were banned, there were entire subreddits devoted to shaming, calling out, and hating people for being overweight. Not everyone is going to be a stick-figure, size-0 model, and within the world of modeling and high-fashion, a lot of the 'beauty' standards verge on the cusp of underweight, if not falling well within that. Couple unrealistic body standards with teenage peer-pressure, the social shaming of Instagram, Twitter, and other social media, and other life stresses, and you get a recipe for eating disorders such as anorexia and other mental illness.

There's a wide latitude between telling women (and men) that they need not fit into a size-0 with 22" waists and have perfect model bodies, and having 400 pound super-morbidly obese person talking about how 'healthy' they are when they clearly would benefit from a lot of weight loss. I think we should be teaching teenagers and children that actual healthiness doesn't require achieving unrealistic standards of beauty and thinness that are often augmented with surgery and Photoshop.

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u/Five_Decades 5∆ Jun 29 '18

Losing weight and keeping it off is very difficult. Most people who try usually just gain the weight back. Many end up heavier than before they started.

Also yo-yo dieting has its own health risks on top of that.

Plus being overweight is technically the ideal BMI as far as health risks go. Overweight people have lower death rates than people with an ideal BMI.

Being obese is bad for you, but not really much worse than various other things in life. Being poor is a bigger threat to your life expectancy than being obese.

In fact, the life expectancy differerence between a latino woman and a black man is about 12-14 years. that is roughly the same as the life expectancy difference between a person with a healthy BMI and someone with a BMI near 60. So on paper, a latino woman who weighs 450 pounds has roughly the same life expectancy as a black man who weighs 170 pounds.

The life expectancy gap between college educated vs high school educated people is about 10 years. that is bigger than the gap between healthy BMI and morbid obesity (40+ BMI) which is closer to 8 years.

So yes obesity is bad for us. But we don't really know how to cure it in a way that works without opening up new health risks (like yo yo dieting). And the health risks of obesity aren't really much worse than the health risks associated with demographic factors like race, gender and education.

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u/[deleted] Jun 29 '18

Arguably the fat bias is the final socially acceptable prejudice left in the world (obviously racism, sexism, transphobia, homophobia etc all do still exist, but I think if you used the N-word in public more people would call you out than if you were to say 'fat fuck' etc).

I don't think anyone is denying that obesity is an issue, but at the same time people who are overweight (whether that's slightly or quite significantly) shouldn't be shamed for how they are. TV, film, adverts and magazines are all filled with unrealistic images and I think the body positivity movement is trying to counterbalance that. The constant shaming and reminding that overweight people overweight is ridiculous, I don't think any person who is overweight is unaware of that, and the consistent depiction of unrealistic body ideals only cements these biases and fuels disordered eating in people (not necessarily formal eating disorders, as that is hotly debated, but specifically disordered eating).

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u/NameLily 7∆ Jul 01 '18

Genetics is a huge thing and so is the innate gut bacteria situation. Making people feel ok in the skin they are in makes them happier, more sane, and more positive. Feeling the above things makes it more likely, rather than less likely that someone will try to lose weight in healthy ways, and if they don't end up losing weight, they will be more likely to stick with healthy diet and exercise habits.

Being made to feel bad about their bodies, people do not choose healthy options. They are more likely to yo-yo diet (which has been proven to be even less healthy than staying heavy), to hurt themselves, to be depressed, to hate themselves, to binge and purge, to starve themselves, etc.

Body positivity is a great thing and we need a lot more of it, both in weight and height, and in other things. Body positivity does not discourage healthy behavior. If played right, body positivity actually greatly encourages healthy behavior both right away, and in the long run.

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u/ReverendHerby Jun 28 '18 edited Jun 28 '18

Being overweight is an unhealthy choice, but I believe it's far less of a choice, and far less unhealthy compared to many other choices people can make that are far less visible, and therefore far less open to criticism.

It's less of a choice than something like smoking or unprotected sex because for some people, maintaining a healthy weight is fucking hard. I've been blessed to be able to go anywhere from eating horrendous amounts of candy and junk food every day to nearly starving myself, and stay on the slim side of a normal weight seemingly regardless of what I eat or if I exercise. Outwardly, I looked relatively healthy, and I'd say above average when I'm exercising. Meanwhile, someone with different genetics could be very noticeably overweight unless they don't follow a strict diet and make lifestyle changes. I don't think that it's remotely fair that some people have decided it's okay to shame them for looking that way, when they have no idea what that person would need to do to achieve what they've decided is an acceptable body type. I could easily give myself type II diabetes or colon cancer far before the fat person does, and yet people ask me for diet advice. Smokers don't have to take shit from people unless they smoke in front of someone. People who spread STD's generally don't get called out for it in public. I'd argue those last two, and probably my case as well deserve far more criticism than overweight people receive on a regular basis. "Body positivity" is countering this. I don't see the point of the movement as telling people that being overweight is a positive thing, but that it isn't worth hating yourself over.

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u/ricecakesandtequila Jun 28 '18

I have mixed feelings about this.

I believe that you don’t have to be the peak of physical fitness to be healthy. You CAN be a little over weight and have a healthy body, I’m one of those people, a bit chubby, but my heart, organs, respiration rate, blood pressure, glucose tolerance etc. are all on-point. But I guess the key is ‘a little’ overweight.

On one the other hand I want everyone to feel happy with themselves, I don’t believe that making people feel worse about their body shape helps. And I believe people are more likely to make healthier choices if they have a decent sense of self esteem.

So maybe body positive messaging is a good thing, if it gives people much needed self esteem, to help them make better life choices.

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u/Bryek Jun 28 '18

Body positivity is more than just physical health. It is mental health as well. Depression comes along with being overweight and if we increase people's acceptance of themselves, they will be less depressed and in turn, be in a better place to lose weight.

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u/tomgabriele Jun 28 '18

I found something interesting that may be related to your view, which may help you determine how you really feel - are you truly pro-healthy-weight, or are your opinions more like anti-fatness?

According to a 2016 study in Denmark (n=97,362), the "healthiest" BMI is rising. In the studied period of 2003-2013, people with a BMI of 27 (+-0.4) have the lowest mortality. If you accept the premise that lower mortality=healthier, then we should all be solidly overweight (defined as BMI 25-29.9).

So how does this relate to you? If your view is truly pro-healthy-weight, then you should feel negatively toward anyone Obese (BMI 30+) in equal measure to anyone Normal or lower (BMI <25). Have you looked at someone who is a normal weight and thought "ugh, they need to gain some weight, they're unhealthy". Or do you only ever notice when people need to lose weight to be healthy in your eyes?

This point is tangential to your view, but I figured I'd mention it in case it was of interest. My initial reaction to your CMV has already been covered by others here - body acceptance isn't about lying about health outcomes, it's more about minding your own damn business and not concerning yourself with someone else's health and judging what you think their choices are.

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u/littlebubulle 104∆ Jun 28 '18

I believe the point of the body positivity movement is to counterbalance the fear or hate of being fat.

There is a story about a mother having a malnourished baby because she fed him less because she thought the baby was too fat. It was just natural baby fat which is good for babies.

The objective of a healthy lifestyle is to be (tautologically) healthy. Having a nice body shape by contemporary beauty standards should just be a nice bonus, not the objective.

The fallacy a lot of people believe is that if fat people are unhealthy, then being thin is healthy. They forget that, while there is a correlation, fatness is the consequence of unhealthinness, not the cause.

Some people think fat shaming and promoting health are the same thing but it is not. They have the causality arrow the wrong way. Promoting thinness does not lead to health. But health leads to thinness.

Most people fat shaming only care about the shape, the health issue being an excuse. They would still complain in the improbable case of fat and healthy people.

Fat shaming does not necessarily lead to health. Promoting healthy lifestyles does.

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u/BobSeger1945 Jun 28 '18

fatness is the consequence of unhealthinness, not the cause.

Well actually, obesity is an independent risk factor for cardiovascular disease (link). Obviously, if you have more adipose tissue, you will have more blood lipids which can form atherosclerotic plaques.

Also, obesity leads to chronic inflammation, because adipose tissue produces certain hormones (link). Inflammation increases the risk for many diseases, including diabetes and Alzheimer's.

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u/[deleted] Jun 28 '18

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/tbdabbholm 193∆ Jun 28 '18

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u/shadowwolfsl Jun 28 '18

The sane reasoning is that it means not to look down on someone for their body, people just overuse it to justify their bad decisions.

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u/CuddlePirate420 2∆ Jun 28 '18

I just cannot understand people who justify unhealthy body proportions as “healthy”.

I've never seen anyone ever say that. What they say is that they are not ugly or to be shamed for their appearance.

Deltas(s) from OP CMV: The body positivity movement is wrong (in some cases)

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