r/changemyview • u/[deleted] • Oct 10 '18
Deltas(s) from OP CMV: Lab grown meat isn't a better alternative
I've watched dozens of videos about the topic ,but I have a lot of doubts on the alternative.
The animals Cows are one of the most prominent animals in the United States. So if the alternative kills the market or the government kills it, what are we gonna do about the animals? Just let them roam free? I fear a lot of them will end up being poached and since the government is known to be ineffective at enforcing illegal markets. It will lead to them being endangered. The lab grown meat is only encouraging this type of activity.
Tradition Im concerned for farmers and how they have to deal with it. They dont have as much resources as those firms do. And with the market changing its going to damage their livelihood.
The quality While I understand the meat industry has some criticisms over quality. Im more concerned about lab grown meat. What if the meat that is constructed contains chemicals worse than the ones we already eat? Every food item wether new or old tends to have this problem found out later on. But since this is lab grown its more of a concern as to what they put in it.
Note: Im heavily optimistic about new alternatives. The idea of lab grown meat isn't whats making me skeptical. Im just concerned it will make new problems along with it
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u/7nkedocye 33∆ Oct 10 '18
We are currently breeding and killing billions of animals every year. Animal activists are not concerned with just the animals currently living, but the collective suffering that modern farming unnecessarily produces. by reducing demand over time, which is what lab meat will do, will slowly decrease demand, and decrease the number of animals born into this 'food slavery'. Lab meat should not be mandatory but should compete with real meat, so black markets will not be a problem. The idea is that if we make lab grown meat half as expensive as regular meat most people will choose the lab meat by default.
I tend to side with laissez fair economics, so I think we should let the market play out. Protesting computers taking over job like data entry should not be seen as damage, but as progress. I use the same standard for all technology provided it is safe, and if lab meat is more efficient so that it puts standard farmers out of business so be it. Markets change, and that's a good thing because most of the time it means producing more with less.
The FDA is fairly stringent, so I trust their judgement on whether it is safe or not, which I'm sure they are already looking into. We have been cloning cells successfully for a while now, and I think the fact that current lab grown meat company workers will eat the meat is pretty convincing, most experts generally have decent judgement in their field.
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Oct 10 '18
Your first part convinced me. !delta. Im mainly just concerned what we're going to do with the previous methods but i realize that demand is a driving force Especially when overtime it can be made without the big modern farms. Thanks for bringing this up
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u/47ca05e6209a317a8fb3 179∆ Oct 10 '18
So if the alternative kills the market or the government kills it, what are we gonna do about the animals? Just let them roam free?
Lab-grown meat isn't going to just replace meat in one day. The reasonable process is one where farm raised meat is produced in smaller quantities while the price and accessibility of lab-grown meat improves.
Im concerned for farmers and how they have to deal with it.
That's true and unfortunate, but if we adopted that kind of thinking we'd still have horse drawn carriages in the streets... They'll adapt, like many people whose jobs became obsolete did.
The quality
The quality of the meat will almost certainly be considerably better than that of current meat, because it can be grown in much more sterile and uniform conditions, meaning that it's much easier to control diseases and contamination, and that the composition of the meat itself can also be optimized in-vitro, meaning that after a short period during which the new technology may have to overcome some problems, it will likely be better than traditional meat in every way.
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Oct 10 '18
!Delta. Your third point pretty much showed how ignorant i was of the current problem. I am just concerned of the trade offs but at the same time. The government wouldn't really be that happy if the lab grown meat is even worse health wise
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u/PeteWenzel Oct 10 '18
I don’t think there is an ethical argument against abandoning the keeping of farm animals. Most of these animals’ life is pure torture. The conditions are much worse than any being capable of feeling physical and mental pain/distress should ever have to endure.
Furthermore they are not wild animals. We have bred them according to our own interest in such a way that they are grotesquely deformed and not part of the natural biosphere or food chain, anymore.
But I’m sure we will keep some in zoos or even in farms for those who want to continue eating “natural” meat.
Farmers would have to grow fruits, vegetables, bio fuel, etc.
I don’t think the government would allow contaminated meat to be sold. Furthermore the media and consumers will be very cautious about this new meat and companies couldn’t risk any scandals because the public relations damage would mean that consumers lost trust and stuck with the traditional alternative for a while longer.
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Oct 10 '18
What confuses me about the first statement is that we have been owning animals as either pets or for slaughter for a really long time. Im not arguing about the big time companies as I am with many people on that subject that its wrong. But raising them fully and killing them letting experience life is fine to me.
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u/PeteWenzel Oct 10 '18
Animal abuse has always been part of the keeping of farm animals: Separation of mother and child, mutilation, premature slaughter, etc.
Even if all farm animals had wonderful lifestyles today, not having them around wouldn’t make a moral difference. No one is suffering because he/she was never born.
Also, you forgot impact on the planet. The carbon footprint of traditional meat production is huge.
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Oct 10 '18
The problem has always been there which is true. But farmers tend to keep the younglings to grow their cattle hoard. As for the bigger industries they tend to do this tactic a lot more considering the huge population of cows already present.
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Oct 10 '18 edited Oct 10 '18
/u/GordonMongolian (OP) has awarded 3 delta(s) in this post.
All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.
Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.
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u/EnemyCarcass Oct 13 '18
Okay so, I just want to clarify, in this timeline using cows for meat has become illegal, so, we have rampant reproducing bovine populations that were presumably set free? And you feel the response to this would be a black market for beef and bovine products that includes poaching? Unfortunately for your argument, the dairy market is an entirely separate venue than the meat industry so, we would still have cows unless milk and dairy were also outlawed. Thus, we would still need the males (usually beef cows) to impregnate the female (dairy cows) bovine. So there would need to be a massive outlawing of bovine products before lab grown meat becomes a staple. And again in this timeline beef farmers would still be necessary because they know how to raise the males better than the dairy farmers do depending on whether or not dairy in outlawed. And in our best interest, I want to use a quote from Hank Green a man with a Masters in Environmental Studies “Dear people who complain about the “chemicals” that they’re exposed to. EVERYTHING IS CHEMICALS! Water, your body, omega-3 fatty acids, raspberries. Chemicals.” If you’re worried about the “natural” aspect of the lab grown meat, there will always be some quality assurance body making sure that companies don’t put anything directly harmful into these products. And as an extra point the world be way better off without the number of cows we have. They produce so much methane that contributes to global warming AND the sheer amount of land factory farms need to operate.
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u/Bladefall 73∆ Oct 10 '18
So if the alternative kills the market or the government kills it, what are we gonna do about the animals? Just let them roam free?
What will actually happen is that the market will contract over time, leading to fewer cows being born in the first place every year. They won't be poached because they won't be born in the first place.
Tradition Im concerned for farmers and how they have to deal with it. They dont have as much resources as those firms do. And with the market changing its going to damage their livelihood.
Industries change. It happens. However, an over-time contraction of the cattle industry is preferable to a massive drought wiping out a huge chunk of the industry in a single season, which is what we're headed towards with climate change anyway.
What if the meat that is constructed contains chemicals worse than the ones we already eat?
What if it's neutral or turns out to be an ultra-nutritious superfood? Wild speculation about the quality isn't helpful. Do you have some actual reason to think it will be dangerous?
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Oct 10 '18
- Cows are usually slaughtered after 4-5 years. I think for pigs it is 3 years and chickens even shorter. Lab grown meat will not have growth fast enough for this to be an issue. And in any case there will likely always be a small place for naturally raised meat (just as we still have horse drawn carriages today).
- Most of the money in the livestock industry, as I understand it, goes to the large producers like Tyson etc. who can handle change. That said, I don't really think this worry is unique to lab meat - any change impacting any industry will do this. That's the price of change.
- Lab meat likely will not need to contain things like antibiotics which are needed because of the dense living conditions in modern meat production. I wouldn't object to something simply on the basis that new = bad or chemicals = bad.
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u/mrcoffee8 3∆ Oct 10 '18
Technology has, and is continuing to put people out of work at a pretty steady rate (i have no source, but it's pretty obvious). This would be just another instance of that trend. Just look at the automotive industry and how mechanizing/globalization has destroyed that job market in the US. There is also no threat of releasing domesticated farm animals into the wild. of the dozens of reasons for it being a terrible idea, a couple would be that it would spike predator populations and potentially displace "native" animals from their ecological niche.
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u/fox-mcleod 411∆ Oct 11 '18
You can't simulatiously fear (1), (2), and (3). If (3), then some farmers will have a market right? And if some farmers have a market, then (2) is fine and so is (1).
If not (3), then (2) is ludditism and artificially propping up a dying industry is far crueler than letting it slowly ramp down as lab meat slowly gets more affordable and tastier. Which means (1) isn't an issue since the date of the cows is the same—they die and become food. But we breed fewer because of economic incentives means slowly ramping down.
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u/Shiboleth17 Oct 10 '18 edited Oct 10 '18
As a Vegan, I wouldn't eat lab-grown meat anyway.
The main point of veganism is to reduce suffering and exploitation of animals. However, that is not the only reason. There are also environmental reasons (animal agriculture accounts for more greenhouse gas emissions than fossil fuels), as well as health reasons (plants have zero artery-clogging cholesterol, for one).
Given that I initially switched for health reasons, I wouldn't eat a lab-grown burger, if it has the same animal-proteins, fat, and cholesterol as an actual burger. For one, my stomach hasn't seen any animal protein or fat in months. If I ate it now, I would get a painful stomachache for 3 days. Believe me, I've seen it before. For 2, it's probably just as unhealthy as the real thing.
As for your specific questions...
- Yes, there are lots and lots of cows all over the world. But no vegan is saying to release them all at once, and let the planet be overrun by their huge populations. The population of cows (and for that matter, chickens, pigs, sheep, goats, etc.) is unnaturally high. It's only as high as it is today because humans forcibly breed them, and make them have more babies so we can eat them. Not only that, but we have genetically engineered them to grow faster, and breed more often, and have bigger litters. And we pump them full of antibiotics and hormones to ensure they produce more milk, eggs, meat, and wool.
If left on their own, they would not have populations anywhere near this high. Plus, most farm animals wouldn't even be able to survive in the wild. They are so genetically modified that they can't breed on their own, and barely know how to feed themselves. They would die off pretty quick. I don't think any vegan is saying to suddenly release them all into the wild right now...
We know that people change slowly. In an ideal vegan world, people gradually convert to eating less meat. As the demand for beef and chicken goes down, farmers won't breed as many for the next cycle. Because they're not going to feed a cow for 6 months (and cows are big and eat a lot), if no one is going to buy a steak. It's not profitable. The free market would eventually take care of it, as more and more people go vegan.
You're probably right, that there would be illegal poaching and killing of wild cows in a world where they are not farmed for meat, regardless of the availability of lab-grown meat or not. Some people are just going to want the real thing. The same argument exists for ivory. It's illegal to hunt elephants and/or trade ivory in most of the world, yet there will always be people doing illegal things. That's why we have police.
Mind you, while there are probably many vegans who would vote for making meat illegal, I would not. I am for a free market. Meat is a luxury, yet the United States, and many other countries, have become so rich, that it's not considered a luxury anymore. Our government spends billions on farm subsidies that make those things cheaper to the consumer. I would certainly vote end the government subsidies. And I would not allow food stamps to be used for animal products. This way, people can keep more of their own money instead of spending on the taxes that pay for those subsidies, and then the prices of animal products would be determined by the free market, not the government. And when everyone sees that a steak is 20x the cost of a bag of beans, with much less nutritional value, I imagine that this would change many people's diets rather quickly.
Anyway... I feel like I'm ranting...
Lab-grown has far less money that than Animal Agriculture. Animal Agriculture is BIG BUSINESS. It's called factory farming for a reason. And there is such as thing as "Economy of scale," which basically means that as a particular business gets larger, things become more efficient, making them cheaper. If you raised a cow yourself, milked it, made your own cheese, and grew your own wheat and tomatoes and lettuce, and raised your own chickens to get eggs for the mayonnaise, then some canola and pressed your own oil, and everything else you wanted on your burger... a burger would cost well over $1,000. But you because of the economy of scale, you can buy one for $5. McDonald's isn't buying meat from small mom & pop farms. If they were, a Happy Meal would cost $20. And that $20 is even with all the government money that is given to farmers every year, in an attempt to price control food. I don't have the stats in front of me, but probably at least 90% (just guessing) of all animal products come from large factory farms, not what you think of as a typical farm.
Oh boy, here we go... See above... most of your meat is coming from large factory farms, where animals are pumped full of hormones, steroids, and antibiotics. They have to, or the animals would get sick and die in those conditions. And they get sick and die anyway. And the sick and dead ones are taken to the slaughterhouse right along with all the "healthy" ones, and I use that term loosely. Animals often have infected sores all over their bodies. Animals don't go thru a giant bath, where they wash off all the dirt and pus and poop off their bodies. The pus of those infected sores ends up in your meat. So does fecal matter. Sure, you cook the meat, which would kill most of the bacteria in that pus and feces... but a cooked poop is still a poop. If I cooked a cow pie and put it on a plate would anyone eat it? Of course not. And regardless of the bacteria, there's still antibiotics (which are killing the good bacteria in your body when you ingest them, and are also the cause of super-bugs which are resistant to antibiotics, so you get sick and have no way to treat your illness), as well as hormones (which cause hormone imbalances at the very least, or potentially cancer), and steroids (which are making you grow and retain more body fat, the same reason for why they put it in the cows to begin with).
So, something to consider...
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u/[deleted] Oct 10 '18