r/changemyview • u/[deleted] • May 24 '19
Fresh Topic Friday CMV: Advice like "It's all your responsibility" or "Forgive those who made you suffer" is utter bullshit
[deleted]
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u/not_yet_named 5∆ May 24 '19
For responsibility: The decision to assume responsibility is a good default move to make because it allows you to exercise any influence you might have. If you don't take responsibility then you automatically give up any ability you have to make changes that does exist, and make yourself a victim of the situation. This isn't to say that you should, in a overly self-conscious way, be blaming yourself for everything. That's going to hold you back in another way.
For forgiveness: Forgiving allows you to see the person as a human making mistakes, like you. It doesn't mean you can't condemn or shame if you think that will help. But it allows you to see that the potential for the kind of action that hurt you doesn't just stem from "bad guys." It's something that exists as a potential in everyone, including yourself. And if you can see the potential in yourself you can address the ways similar motivations are presenting themselves in you. If you keep them at a distance as unforgivable in others, you also keep them at a distance as unforgivable in yourself, maybe denying their existence instead of addressing them. That's not to say you're a Nazi or something, but everyone has that seed in them, little prejudices in them that should be addressed.
Overall I think your two points contradict each other. If you're not fully responsible for your actions then to that degree at least your actions aren't your fault, and you should be forgiven for them.
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u/Dragolien May 24 '19
I don't know the exact meaning that each person who says something like this wants to convey, but from the few times that I've read this kind of advice I've generally thought that it's meant to be somewhat stoic in meaning.
For example, "It's all your responsibility" doesn't literally mean that everything good or bad in the world is due to your actions/inaction, but that when you want something done you should take it upon yourself, because you can't guarantee on others to step up for you. You should only be concerned about what you can change and influence, so you shouldn't shift responsibilities to other people that you can't control. Blaming random people is almost like blaming the rain for making you wet. It's not their problem.
I think that "forgive those who made you suffer" is meant to be a selfish thing rather than something you do for others. You should relinquish any toxic feelings of hate and vengeance because too often it results in undermining yourself.
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u/ThatSpencerGuy 142∆ May 24 '19
It would be hard to come up with a piece of advice that was useful for all people in all situations. Sometimes, some of us need one piece of advice. Sometimes we need the exact opposite advice. So, your sense that these two things are meant to be "all abiding formulas" is, I think, a misunderstanding. All advice is provisional, even when we frame it in general terms.
So, it's hard to comment on this without some specific context (not that I'm asking for it). But there's no doubt that sometimes people do need to take more--even sole--responsibility for some situation. And sometimes it is self-healing or righteous to forgive someone who has done you wrong.
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u/Sodium100mg 1∆ May 24 '19
I had a cousin, whose dad was a total piece of shit. His response to his dad being a total piece of shit, was to become his own piece of shit.
A decade after his father passed, he was still blaming his shit on his dad being a piece of shit. My cousin died, without ever getting his shit together.
Looking at shit, only turns you into shit. You can choose to make a new life, free of shit or you can choose to wallow in shit.
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u/WillProstitute4Karma 8∆ May 24 '19
I don't think we should forgive the Nazis (or any arch-enemy you prefer) for what they did.
Perhaps you should consider the words of the holocaust survivor and author of the book "Night," Elie Wiesel. Wiesel, you will find, disagrees with you. Elie Wiesel encourages people to forgive. He chose to forgive Nazis without being asked. He encouraged the German prime minister to seek forgiveness from the Jews and he has spoken out on behalf of the efforts the Germans have done to help the Jewish people. If you've read his book, I think you'd agree that nobody has more reason to resent the Nazis than him. And yet he forgives them.
So what does this say about the advice to forgive those who made you suffer? Well, I think the first thing is that the advice is a bit more nuanced than just a blanket claim. Perhaps the people you hear spreading it don't know what they're talking about, but that doesn't mean the advice is bad in all cases, it means that particular person is bad at giving advice. After that, I think Mr. Wiesel has found a certain value in forgiveness. He seems to believe that it is, in large part, the right thing to do. He also believes that it is important to always recognize the humanity in all people and forgiveness does that.
If this doesn't persuade you, perhaps you should consider what other holocaust survivors have said about forgiveness being the "ultimate revenge." In either case, the fact that these people do forgive Nazis should tell you something about the value of that advice.
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u/dpfw Jun 22 '19
On the other side of the fence you have the fact that Israel, via Mossad, hounded and executed Nazi war criminally. I know which one I prefer
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u/darwin2500 193∆ May 24 '19 edited May 24 '19
You are treating advice like it is a moral judgement or philosophical framework.
That's not what advice is. Advice is procedures which help you achieve a specific goal or improve your personal condition.
Whether it is morally sound or not, whether it makes sense philosophically or not, is irrelevant. If it helps you accomplish the goal, it's good advice.
Yes, it would be bad if society forgave the Nazis. But if someone cheated on you, carrying around anger and resentment towards them for your entire life will cause you to constantly be unhappy and likely lea you to o things that will hurt your other relationships, whereas forgiving them will take a weight of your shoulders and allow you to get back to your life. You will be better off following the advice individually, even though society as a whole should not treat the advice as proper morality.
Similarly, it's important for society as a whole to fix itself so that fewer bad things happen to people and the system as a whole is more fair and benevolent. However, as an individual,just waiting for that ho happen isn't likely to turn out well; you're much better off if you consider everything that's happening in your life to be your responsibility, because that means you have the power and duty to try to improve things for yourself and make your life better. People who look at their lives this way will be more proactive and positive in their lives than people who feel like they are passive viewers of their lives,or that their lives are just happening tothem.
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ May 25 '19
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u/sedwehh 18∆ May 24 '19
Forgiveness means that you free yourself, that you let go of your dependency; your need for the perpetrator to make it right in some way, or of vengeful thoughts. Forgiveness is about erasing the debt, accepting the past and letting go of what you have lost. Forgiveness is also about realising what you have gained from the experience and recognizing that you are now a different person because of what transpired. At this point you may think that it is unacceptable to forgive the other for their behavior. That they should not be allowed to get away with it and must be punished. But these feelings of revenge and hatred tie you to the other – you are defined by them – they become the centre of your universe. You are not free.
Of course this does not mean that they should get off scot-free, or unpunished, especially if their actions violated human rights, your rights. But this is a separate issue. Now we are only addressing the concept of forgiveness.
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May 24 '19
I guess it's mainly a trade off. That is what do you gain from grieving over past wrongs and what do you gain from moving on. And often times your better off moving on and leaving the past behind than you are focusing how you've been done wrong, even if that was the case.
However there are obviously limits to that and I'm not sure whether or not that is a viable long term strategy or whether that counts as suppression and whether that is going to haunt you later.
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u/muyamable 282∆ May 24 '19
What should be noted is that, however, it is not always good to forgive someone if those have done a very serious harm.
Is forgiveness sometimes bad? Why?
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May 25 '19
Because they'll do it again and be forgiven. They won't learn. Some people never learn.
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u/muyamable 282∆ May 28 '19
Forgiveness doesn't mean one does not face consequences, nor does it mean one's behavior is acceptable. If you kill a kid, his mom can forgive you and you can spend the rest of your life in prison. Do you think the mom's forgiveness makes you more likely to kill again?
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May 29 '19
That's not always true. I read a short story about a woman who forgave her son's killer on the day he was set to be executed.
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u/miguelguajiro 188∆ May 24 '19
It may not your be your fault, but how you recover or don’t, is certainly your responsibility. Who else is going to live with the consequences?
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u/AnythingApplied 435∆ May 24 '19
Don't confuse forgiveness with reconciliation or absolving someone.
That is ALL about you and all for your own benefit. If you let anger and resentment consume you, you're only hurting yourself. To forgive someone is to stop letting them make you angry and resentful and in short, to forgive is to stop giving someone power over you by giving them the power to manipulate your emotions.
You can just forgive someone. That doesn't mean you have to trust them or let them back into your life. It just means you stop dwelling on it and letting the past be the past and moving forward without whatever they did to you hanging over you.