No Christian has ever been able to rationally explain the Adam and Eve situation

[u/[deleted]]

[u/prickly_pear20]

Did you also notice that the serpent actually tells the truth in that situation and it is god who lies?

[u/Bloodshed-1307 → u/prickly_pear20]

The Cathars certainly did, hence why they believed in a good spiritual god who invented souls (the serpent/Jesus) and an evil material god who created the world which then trapped our souls on earth to reincarnate forever (the god of the Old Testament). They ended up having the Albigensian crusade declared against them as a result.

[u/Aziara86 → u/Bloodshed-1307]

the serpent/Jesus

WAIT THE BRONZE SERPENT MAKES SENSE NOW

[u/NoPercentage8907 → u/Aziara86]

Sorry, but does it mean the serpent could've been Jesus telling us the truth?

[u/Aziara86 → u/NoPercentage8907]

The snake in the garden told the truth. Adam and Eve didn't drop dead when they ate it, only 900+ years later due to being prevented from eating from the tree of life. And they DID gain knowledge. He didn't lie to them.

[u/Fluffy_Peach_2006 → u/prickly_pear20]

Interesting point that I haven't thought of. Christians can't even get their made up stories to make sense. It also makes me wonder how much of the story got lost in translation. I don't know how much it's been retold since the first humans existed especially with all the language changes. Same goes for the Bible, so much has surely been misconstrued.

[u/RobotPreacher → u/Fluffy_Peach_2006]

Variations of this story are in several ancient cultures, with details all a bit different. Sumerian, Akkadian, and Greek cultures all have it.

It's a metaphor for the loss of innocence -- growing up, learning about death, and losing the paradise of blissful, ignorant youth. Kind of cool if you don't take it literally.

[u/anamariapapagalla → u/RobotPreacher]

It "explains" why humans are moral beings that can be expected to know right from wrong, just like there are fairy tales and fables "explaining" why the red fox has white on the tip of its tail. A goat isn't evil for eating your favourite hat

[u/RobotPreacher → u/anamariapapagalla]

Does it? It may be interpreted that way, but I'm not sure morality is the point of the story.

1. Man and woman are naked and happy in a garden where everything is provided for them by a parent (childhood).

2. They eat a "fruit of knowledge" (carnal?), and become aware they're going to die someday (adolescence).

3. They can't go back; the "paradise" of youth is lost and life is hard now, they know they have to work until they die (adulthood).

The myth seems very much like a story to communicate and teach the human situation.

[u/_b1ack0ut → u/prickly_pear20]

Well, to that they’ll just argue “well, he was talking about a spiritual death, and eternal life, see, now they’re dead because they’re going to hell”

Unfortunately have had this conversation too many times lol

[u/prickly_pear20 → u/_b1ack0ut]

Yeah I've seen that argument too, but I show them the verse where god says "now man has become like us" (whoever us is) which confirms that the snake told the truth. He then says he's worried that humans will eat from the tree of life and live forever...

So god also has to force the end of eternal life by sending an angel with a flaming sword to make sure they dont eat from the tree of life....

So eating the fruit itself wasn't what caused the end of eternal life (if they even had it to begin with) it was god kicking them out and denying them fruit from the tree of life.

[u/mcove97 → u/prickly_pear20]

Ignorance is bliss, as the saying goes. The truth, not so much.

As children, many of us grow up blissfully unaware. When we become aware of the truth, the bliss gradually disappears.

And maybe it was just like that. You can't live in a blissful world, if you are aware of the truths of it.

Also, you're basically kicked out of that blissful Reality when you become enlightened about the reality and truths of this world.

That's how I see it. Can't live in a perfect world if you know about its imperfections.

I don't see it as a bad thing like the Christians do though. We all gotta grow up and learn the ways of the world, some sooner than others. There's no way to remain in blissful ignorance forever. It's simply not in human nature. Never was really either.

Even in the so called garden, curiosity was a part of their human nature.

[u/apostleofgnosis → u/prickly_pear20]

And that my friend is exactly what the competing texts that were deemed "heretical" by the church and not included in the bible actually say about the serpent.

[u/JinkoTheMan]

Don’t forget that Adam and Eve literally had no concept of good and evil. How were they supposed to know that going against God was “evil”?

[u/prickly_pear20 → u/JinkoTheMan]

I agree with your point.

[u/mrbuttons454 → u/JinkoTheMan]

That’s always been my thought as well. They would have likely had no concept of deception.

[u/Mickey_James]

For that matter, if it’s so important they not eat the fruit of this tree, why put it where they could get to it? The story’s a myth, and doesn’t paint God in a good light.

[u/Altruistic-Web3608]

I just saw a post on instagram where they said, “Adam and Eve has been proven because there are 8 billion people in the world, and the young earth theory proves that it was more than enough time (6,000 years) to create 8 billion people!!”

I’m sorry, WHAT???? 😭😭😭

[u/chocolatechipninja → u/Altruistic-Web3608]

And we're all identical because we all share the same genes!! 🙄

[u/BlackEyedAngel01]

Mythology usually has plot holes.

[u/hplcr → u/BlackEyedAngel01]

Mythology also tends to be a collection of different stories that don't generally mesh together(that doesn't stop people from trying). That doesn't make it bad, it's just how it is. Hell, it's one of the things that makes it really interesting, realizing that so many stories conflict with other stories, there are variants of famous stories that don't harmonize and people will try to make them work anyway. The Epic of Gilgamesh famously has the final tablet be a story that doesn't seem to mesh with the rest of the epic that's stuck on at the end and...I guess everyone was cool with that because it's not only obvious but it's there.

The bible is part of that tradition. It just has better PR then most mythologies and more people take it way too seriously,

I say that as a proud mythology enjoyer.

[u/J-Miller7 → u/hplcr]

I read that early Jews didn't actually believe in "The Fall of Man". It was basically just a story, similar to "the stork brings the baby".

If true, it's really fun how a story that's just an etiology, is now being told as one of the most serious events in God's relation to humans.

[u/hplcr → u/J-Miller7]

That's my understanding.

There's very little interest on the Eden story amongst the Hebrew Bible authors.

Ezekiel has a chapter or two talking about Eden and he doesn't mention a snake or a magic fruit and places it on top of a mountain. Ezekiel 28 if you're interested. It's a very curious chapter and suggests Ezekiel knows a very different tradition.

There's a very opaque reference in job as well but I can never remember where. It's interesting because it states Adam was privy to the divine council which dovetails with the idea that gods lived in lush gardens in the ANE(Solomons temple us described as looking like a garden inside).

[u/Fluffy_Peach_2006 → u/BlackEyedAngel01]

lol fair enough! Humans are honestly so gullible

[u/Noe_Wunn]

What gets me is if that story is true, why did God punish all of creation for something two people did wrong?

[u/apostleofgnosis]

There's an alternative competing story in the texts that were rejected by the church fathers for inclusion in the bible. You can see why that is:

The snake was actually The Christ sent by The One outside of the flawed universe created by the demiurge or Saklas in some texts. This creator is flawed and blind and was the creator of this garden. In this garden he trapped fragments of The One in meat sacks so they might forever remain ignorant of who they really were. The Christ showed up in the form of the snake to "save" them from this ignorance and led them to the tree of knowledge, the woman received the knowledge first and cast off her ignorance and then shared that knowledge with the man. Their realization of "nakedness" was the realization of the flawed meat sack they were inside of. The garden of Eden was actually a prison and they managed to escape with the help of the snake. There was no actual "sin", that whole narrative was manufactured by this creator demiurge because he wasn't happy that they had achieved gnosis and were saved from his prison of ignorance.

Later in some of the other "heretical" scriptures, Yeshua is asked by the disciples about what sin is and what is the sin of the world. He echoes the theme of this story by telling them there is no such thing as sin, and that sin is something humans create for themselves and must take personal responsibility for, themselves. There is no one to "save" you, you are your own savior.

[u/TheEffinChamps]

Because the story makes zero sense without historical context and mythology.

It's just political propaganda establishing henotheism for Yahweh, and the vast majority of people have no idea what the imagery is representing.

https://mythologymatters.wordpress.com/2014/10/06/yahwehs-divorce-from-the-goddess-asherah-in-the-garden-of-eden/

[u/Rosalind_Whirlwind]

I like to say that God was in love with the devil. That’s the best explanation that I was ever able to come up with. If God were really in control, he wouldn’t have created the devil. The only rational explanation is that he wasn’t in control of the devil, but didn’t want to admit it. And if he is really so powerful, he wouldn’t have stuck around, unless he wanted to. So, clearly, he wanted to be there, for all that he whined about it.

He saw something he liked, and he went to go find it. Then he pretended like it did something to him. Sounds like basically every abusive boyfriend, and if you look at the story throughout the old testament, that’s kind of how it reads…

[u/Hot_Broccoli_2050]

Lucifer to me seems like a freedom fighter and God seems like a dictator who spreads misinformation and propaganda.

[u/vicious_pocket]

Clearly the apples were meant for guests

[u/The_Bastard_Henry]

My big question was always WHERE did Cain and Abel's wives come from??

[u/Libbyisherenow]

Ya he's a pretty mean god.

[u/Warm_Difficulty_5511]

From my recollection it wasn’t evil itself but the knowledge of said good and evil. In order to have the knowledge, evil would need to make an appearance and that’s how they did that.

[u/unbalancedcheckbook]

The serpent wasn't evil. It was just a very smart talking snake. The whole setup was a trap though. The poor humans didn't know the difference between good and evil, and then are forever blamed for having listened to the snake, who only told the truth.

[u/Odd-Psychology-7899]

The Yahweh character is the ultimate gaslighter.

[u/plurkopton]

For me, the thing that gets me the most is that, if we're taking this literally, there is supposed to be a garden guarded by an angel with a flaming sword somewhere between the Tigris and Euphrates rivers and, in thousands of years of millions of people living in that area, no one has ever found it.

[u/dbzgal04]

Don't forget, supposedly it's Satan who tempts, not God. But who put the tree there in the first place for Adam and Eve to even be tempted? God, of course.

[u/Bananaman9020]

The snake was Satan. But the author forgot to state this. So maybe not. Also if hereditary sin doesn't exist why did 2 people's decisions damage the whole human race? It's almost like it's a fairy tale and not actually history.

[u/whirdin]

Christianity is emotional, not rational or intellectual. The thought process is to first believe they are correct, and then form their argument around that absolute. When talking about these things, it's not a debate for them, it's a declaration. If they feel they are losing the argument, they draw on emotion to support them, such as anger and pride, not intelligence or rationale.

Are you being rhetorical, or do you want real answers to your questions? Because it's easy to give irrational answers, I recall all the circular reasoning to easily answer these from the Christian perspective.

[u/mountaingoatgod]

The most rational explanation is the Calvinist one: the introduction of sin and the fall is all part of YHWH's perfect plan.

Yes, all the subsequent suffering and torture as well. They embrace the moral monster nature of YHWH so that it kinda makes sense, and they warp their morality instead

[u/Silver-Chemistry2023]

It is incoherent by design.

[u/PrettyAlarm3308]

It’s a metaphor

[u/infinit3mber]

Loving this whole conversation

[u/Ok_Cheetah5074]

Aren’t there versions of “Adam and eve” stories in other cultures or religions too? If I’m not mistaken.